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Tier 2 proposals published

  • 29-06-2019 3:42pm
    #1
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,883 ✭✭✭


    https://www.gaa.ie/football/news/gaa-ard-chomhairle-puts-forward-two-separate-tier-2-all-ireland-sfc-proposals/
    Ard Chomhairle has this morning unanimously agreed to send forward two separate proposals on the formation of a Tier 2 All-Ireland senior football championship out to the wider membership for discussion.

    A decision on the proposals will be taken at a Special Congress which will be staged at Pc Uhaoimh on October 19, with a view to implementation in time for the 2020 Championship summer.

    Proposal A will feature the Provincial Championships as present with the current four rounds of All-Ireland Qualifiers reducing to two rounds and open to teams from Allianz Divisions 1 and 2 and any Allianz Division 3 and 4 teams who qualify for their Provincial Finals.

    The Tier 2 Championship format of Proposal A is a straight knock out competition for 16 teams from across Divisions 3 and 4 that do not make their Provincial Finals.

    There is the possibility for the competition to be organised on a geographical basis – northern and southern conferences for first round ties, quarter-finals and semi-finals to ensure less travel for teams and supporters, while also retaining local rivalries.

    The semi-finals would be the only senior inter-county GAA events on their respective weekend – barring a major replay.

    Proposal B which has gone forward for discussion is similar to the above and also features Division 3 and 4 teams that do not reach a Provincial Final entering a new Tier 2 championship.

    A key difference is that in the event that a Division 3 or 4 team do reach a Provincial Final, to make up 16 teams in Tier 2 their place in Tier 2 would be taken by the lowest ranked Division 2 team from that year’s Allianz league.

    The format for the Tier 2 Championship in Proposal B features an initial round of games which then creates a winners’ group and a losers’ group and so offers beaten counties a way of playing their way back into contention.

    Proposal B would be played out on the following lines:

    16 Teams involved

    Rd 1: 8 Teams v 8 Teams

    Rd 2a: 4 Winners Rd 1 v 4 Winners Rd 1

    Rd 2b: 4 Losers Rd 1 v 4 Losers Rd 1

    Rd 3: 4 Rd 2b Winners v 4 Rd 2a Losers

    QF: 4 Rd 2a Winners v 4 Rd 3 Winners

    Semi-finals & Final

    An additional prize for the winner of the final under both proposals would be a place reserved in the following year’s All-Ireland Sam Maguire Championship, irrespective of their league position.

    It is also envisaged that both proposals would have dedicated broadcast coverage and a marketing and promotional campaign with a dedicated All-Star selection and tour.

    The finals under both proposals would take place at Croke Park.

    The proposals will now be sent to counties for discussion with a final wording on the proposals to be agreed at a meeting of Ard Chomhairle in September.


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Comments

  • #2
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Do they really need a back door within the B too?

    Anything that keeps the provincials is a waste of time anyway, and we all know that the marketing promises are lies.


  • #3
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »

    Anything that keeps the provincials is a waste of time anyway

    This

    Is there much difference between this and the now defunct, much maligned Tommy Murphy cup?


  • #4
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    The more and more the GAA try to keep the provincial championship the more and more they are going to destroy the championship. As soon as the provincial councils give up the little bit of power they have the better it will be for everyone. I don't think anyone cares about the provincial championship anymore, if Clare were to win Munster I'd say the only celebration would be that we got to the Super 8s.

    Speaking of Clare, they are the only team outside of Kerry or Cork to win the Munster football championship since 1932, what kind of championship is that? but as long as Cork and Kerry keep their cushy home and away arrangement for the finals there won't be any changes


  • #5
    blowitupref
    Registered Users Posts: 2,011 ✭✭✭blowitupref


    jr86 wrote: »
    This

    Is there much difference between this and the now defunct, much maligned Tommy Murphy cup?


    Very little difference. For all the criticism of the provincial championship there is a lot more interest among players and supporters if they reach the final of it than a Tommy Murphy version 2 final would ever bring.


  • #6
    Mahony0509
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,559 ✭✭✭Mahony0509


    I think the provincial is staying the way it is because it's only two tiers, versus 5 in the hurling.


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  • #7
    manofwisdom
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭manofwisdom


    Clareman wrote: »
    I don't think anyone cares about the provincial championship anymore, if Clare were to win Munster I'd say the only celebration would be that we got to the Super 8s.


    Maybe my eyes was playing tricks but it seemed like Roscommon players and supporters who couldn't contain their excitement by entering the field early care very much about the provincial championship.


    Cavan this summer and Fermanagh last year had a huge interest and care about being part of Ulster final. Clare reaching a final would produce the same interest.





    I have seen many team reach the last 8 via the back door and i haven't seen them celebrate in the manner of Roscommon,Monaghan or even Donegal did in recent years.


  • #8
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    manofwisdom wrote: »
    Maybe my eyes was playing tricks but it seemed like Roscommon players and supporters who couldn't contain their excitement by entering the field early care very much about the provincial championship.

    Cavan this summer and Fermanagh last year had a huge interest and care about being part of Ulster final. Clare reaching a final would produce the same interest.

    I have seen many team reach the last 8 via the back door and i haven't seen them celebrate in the manner of Roscommon,Monaghan or even Donegal did in recent years.

    I actually said when I saw the Roscommon supporters on the pitch that that'll be justification for the GAA to keep the provincial championship for another 10 years.

    Connacht and Ulster are the only competitive championships at the moment and it doesn't look like that'll change any time soon.


  • #9
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    I'd imagine it'll be tricky enough to go ahead with this if laois or Westmeath - division 3 this year - or Cork - division 3 next year - make super 8s?


  • #10
    jr86
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,930 ✭✭✭jr86


    Clareman wrote: »
    I actually said when I saw the Roscommon supporters on the pitch that that'll be justification for the GAA to keep the provincial championship for another 10 years.

    Similarly a Wexford win tomorrow will prolong the hurling provinces as they are for a good 10 years at least


  • #11
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    jr86 wrote: »
    Similarly a Wexford win tomorrow will prolong the hurling provinces as they are for a good 10 years at least

    Hurling provinces are set now because not only are attendences up where the GAA want them but they can say that it's a fair system as it doesn't guarantee top counties passage through as Galway, Clare, Tipp and Waterford have all missed out on the playoffs.

    If the gaa wanted to make a proper championship they'd just have to follow the champions league type draw with seeded teams in a number of groups (say 8 groups of 4), the top 2 in each group goes through to knock out last 16, they quarters, semi and final but that would mean that the provincial councils lose all their power and the stronger teams would be at risk of being knocked out earlier as there would be more knock out football, as it is the likes of Dublin and Kerry are almost guaranteed semi final football through the super 8s.


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  • #12
    Stacksofwacks
    Registered Users Posts: 1,534 ✭✭✭Stacksofwacks


    Lack of imagination is stunning. If provincials are to be retained then divide each provincial into A and B section with promotion/relegation between tiers. Have round robin groups of 3 teams with home and away matches. Have B all Ireland winners enter playoff for final spot in super 8. I would also trial b teams from stronger counties in B championship. Dublin B, Kerry B etc Obviouslyif one of those win B championship they cannot be promoted or enter Ai series


  • #13
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,904 ✭✭✭threeball


    Usual hyperconvoluted GAA sh1te.


  • #14
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Stacksofwacks wrote: »
    Lack of imagination is stunning. If provincials are to be retained then divide each provincial into A and B section with promotion/relegation between tiers. Have round robin groups of 3 teams with home and away matches. Have B all Ireland winners enter playoff for final spot in super 8. I would also trial b teams from stronger counties in B championship. Dublin B, Kerry B etc Obviouslyif one of those win B championship they cannot be promoted or enter Ai series

    There's only 6 counties in Munster, are you proposing Kerry, Cork and Clare are in A while Tipp, Limerick and Waterford stay in the B Munster against the second teams for Kerry Cork and Clare??? It's almost impossible to keep the provincial championship and a fair championship.

    Have 8 groups of 4, first year seeding is based on NFL divisions so there's 1 from each division in each group, but every other year have it seeded based on past performance, for example the All Ireland Champions get 32 points, runner ups get 31, beaten semi finalists get 30 each, beaten quarter finalist get 16, beaten last 16 get 8 and every team get a point based on their group results (e.g. win every game you get 6 points) so the most points you can have in a year is 38, you hold onto point for the past 5 seasons.

    The top 2 from each group play for Sam, the teams in 3rd play for the B Championship and the last team play for the C Championship.


  • #15
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Clareman wrote: »
    There's only 6 counties in Munster, are you proposing Kerry, Cork and Clare are in A while Tipp, Limerick and Waterford stay in the B Munster against the second teams for Kerry Cork and Clare??? It's almost impossible to keep the provincial championship and a fair championship.

    Have 8 groups of 4, first year seeding is based on NFL divisions so there's 1 from each division in each group, but every other year have it seeded based on past performance, for example the All Ireland Champions get 32 points, runner ups get 31, beaten semi finalists get 30 each, beaten quarter finalist get 16, beaten last 16 get 8 and every team get a point based on their group results (e.g. win every game you get 6 points) so the most points you can have in a year is 38, you hold onto point for the past 5 seasons.

    The top 2 from each group play for Sam, the teams in 3rd play for the B Championship and the last team play for the C Championship.

    I'd agree mostly except no C. You should be heading home for finishing last in anything.


  • #16
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    I'd agree mostly except no C. You should be heading home for finishing last in anything.

    Fair enough, figured keeping as many teams playing as long as possible would be the best solution for all involved.


  • #17
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Clareman wrote: »
    Fair enough, figured keeping as many teams playing as long as possible would be the best solution for all involved.

    It's like giving the little fat lad a medal at the sports day because everyone has to get one these days. There has to a be a line where teams need to be told, if you want more games then go nuts and actually win some.


  • #18
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    OldMrBrennan83 wrote: »
    It's like giving the little fat lad a medal at the sports day because everyone has to get one these days. There has to a be a line where teams need to be told, if you want more games then go nuts and actually win some.

    Leitrim had a great day out with their win last, just because teams aren't the top tier (or even second tier) doesn't mean lads aren't putting in the effort.


  • #19
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    Clareman wrote: »
    Leitrim had a great day out with their win last, just because teams aren't the top tier (or even second tier) doesn't mean lads aren't putting in the effort.

    That is not remotely what I'm saying at all, Leitrim won games to get that day last week. I'm saying if you're put in a group and finish last then you should be eliminated rather than getting some token games. And if they don't want to be eliminated then they shouldn't finish last.


  • #20
    recyclebin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,498 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    The All Ireland series needs to be separated from the provincials, full stop. It's a lot easier for certain teams in Connacht and Munster to make a provincial finals every year compared to Leinster or Ulster. They need to go to four regions of 8 if they want a fair provincial type system.

    In comparison the Hurling is nearly fair except for the rules around Kerry getting into Munster.


  • #21
    threeball
    Registered Users Posts: 7,904 ✭✭✭threeball


    recyclebin wrote: »
    The All Ireland series needs to be separated from the provincials, full stop. It's a lot easier for certain teams in Connacht and Munster to make a provincial finals every year compared to Leinster or Ulster. They need to go to four regions of 8 if they want a fair provincial type system.

    In comparison the Hurling is nearly fair except for the rules around Kerry getting into Munster.

    Surely connaught is less predictable than Leinster?

    The provincials should replace the fbd, o Byrne cup etc. Games and they should have no part in the championship. What's being proposed is total crap.


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  • #22
    recyclebin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,498 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    16 Teams involved
    Rd 1: 8 Teams v 8 Teams
    Rd 2a: 4 Winners Rd 1 v 4 Winners Rd 1
    Rd 2b: 4 Losers Rd 1 v 4 Losers Rd 1
    Rd 3: 4 Rd 2b Winners v 4 Rd 2a Losers
    QF: 4 Rd 2a Winners v 4 Rd 3 Winners
    Semi-finals & Final

    This is exactly how it works for the senior club championship in Laois and it works well.

    It could be used for both A and B championships. For the first year you put division 1 and 2 teams into the A championship and the division 3 and 4 teams into the B championship.

    Then at the end of the year the winners of B get promoted to A. The 4 losers in the A playoff in relegation semi finals and finals to decide who drops to the B.

    For year two you don't have any connection between league and championship.


  • #23
    OldMrBrennan83
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    recyclebin wrote: »
    The All Ireland series needs to be separated from the provincials, full stop. It's a lot easier for certain teams in Connacht and Munster to make a provincial finals every year compared to Leinster or Ulster. They need to go to four regions of 8 if they want a fair provincial type system.

    In comparison the Hurling is nearly fair except for the rules around Kerry getting into Munster.

    If they must keep them then instead of League > Championship, they could do something like Provincials > Championship (based on more of a league). Only problem is whether the suits would go for it as their provincial competitions would end up as no more than run-out competitions for the big teams. Maybe having some carrot for the championship draw based on winning or getting to the final of the province might help but the balance is still stupid.


  • #24
    recyclebin
    Registered Users Posts: 3,498 ✭✭✭recyclebin


    threeball wrote: »
    Surely connaught is less predictable than Leinster?

    The provincials should replace the fbd, o Byrne cup etc. Games and they should have no part in the championship. What's being proposed is total crap.

    Yes, Connaught is less predictable than Leinster but there are only really three teams that are really in a chance of getting to the final and guaranteed a place in the 'A' championship under the proposal. In Leinster you need to avoid Dublin in the draw and beat two or three evenly matched teams to get to a Leinster final.


  • #25
    grbear
    Registered Users Posts: 693 ✭✭✭grbear


    I don't see why counties would vote for these structure changes.

    There's a task force in place aimed at sorting out the fixture calendar and adopting this new structure before they issue some sort of findings just seems foolish. Why adopt changes that could be labelled outdated before they are even implemented?

    I also don't see how these changes will generate more revenue for the GAA. Ultimately if we want to see the Dublin model replicated and put more games development officers in more counties then the GAA need to be making more money. Maybe I'm missing something but the proposals on the table look like they end up with less tickets being sold.


    Maybe I'm being harsh here but they just look like a rush job to ensure Horans has some sort of legacy from his time as president. Massaging one man's ego should be well done the list of the GAAs priorities so I hope both proposals get chucked out.


  • #26
    rossie1977
    Registered Users Posts: 11,341 ✭✭✭✭rossie1977


    An additional prize for the winner of the final under both proposals would be a place reserved in the following year’s All-Ireland Sam Maguire Championship, irrespective of their league position.

    So if reading that correct the prize for winner is a place in qualifiers following year.


  • #27
    The_Honeybadger
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭The_Honeybadger


    Both proposals fall well short of the change required. The imbalance in the various provincial championships is the single biggest issue and there is no acknowledgment or proposal to address that. I just don’t see the point in any of the changes put forward. I understand the provincial councils would be staunchly against change but do the GAA want a proper marketable and fair competition or don’t they? It can’t be done without upsetting a few people I am afraid.

    The ideal setup for me would be to move the excellent league competition to the summer and run off a seeded 32 team knockout championship alongside it. The championship winners would have max five games. Playing the best competition in the muck and rain in January and February is outdated. Perhaps the provincials could be played then as a warm up competition for the season.


  • #28
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Those proposals would mean that Cork would be in tier 2, there is no way Cork, Kerry, Tipp and a few more would vote in favour of thay


  • #29
    Coillte_Bhoy
    Registered Users Posts: 7,883 ✭✭✭Coillte_Bhoy


    Clareman wrote: »
    Those proposals would mean that Cork would be in tier 2, there is no way Cork, Kerry, Tipp and a few more would vote in favour of thay

    Ya but by getting to the Munster final they would be into the AI series


  • #30
    Clareman
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 23,920 Mod ✭✭✭✭Clareman


    Coillte_Bhoy wrote: »
    Ya but by getting to the Munster final they would be into the AI series

    I don't think they'd be willing to take the chance


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  • #31
    ToBeFrank123
    Users Awaiting Email Confirmation Posts: 2,176 ✭✭✭ToBeFrank123


    The provincial championships are still reasonably alive except of course for Leinster which has been ruined by Dublin dominance.

    The provincials are part and parcel of the race for Sam Maguire and the allure of it.

    The GAA need to make more of an effort to help the weakest counties to compete.


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