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DNA Analysis

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Comments

  • #422
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    Good to know. But first I want to see independently what ethnicity results they come up with as that is the least reliable part of DNA.


  • #423
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    What breakdown did Ancestry give you on ethnicity and did the genetic communities make sense given your known ancestry?

    On a relatively small dataset but spreadsheet here has 29 Irish public samples

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_sjsM56m-0ewGu1RlWbg2MtEwhWJrcbc4sRnvpkUquU/edit#gid=1203387096


  • #424
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Please keep all these comments in the DNA thread. Threads merged. Also, to point out ONCE again, there's a lot of repetition in this thread and you can all use the search function. And refer to the DNA sticky.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #425
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    Ancestry gave me just two genetic communities and they are very general, the circles covering most of the island except the west. 'Munster' and 'Irish in the North Midlands' are my genetic communities, they say. This covers most of what I have found thru the paper trail. It does not cover my great-great grandfather from Ballintoy, Co Antrim. Too bad as I have grown very attached to him--even visited last year--tea with cousins at the old farm--unforgettable.

    Via the arduous paper trail, I have gotten to townland and/or parish for 9 of my 16 great-great grandparents. I have gotten to the county for 1 more. 4 more were from Ireland, place of origin still unknown. 2 were from Spain and indeed the DNA results showed me as 13% Iberian Peninsula, almost exactly the 12.5% that 1 great-great grandparent represents.

    On Ancestry DNA, I can't seem to find the smaller genetic communities that make up the larger regions mentioned above. Anyone know?


  • #426
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    I haven't found the genetic communities to be of any use yet. I think they must need a certain number of people to be worthwhile. I have just one: Munster Irish, which appears to cover the entire lower half of the country. I'm only aware of definite ancestors from Limerick on one grandparent's line, and she also has Welsh ancestry. Everyone else is from Dublin for the last 5 generations...

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • #427
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    VirginiaB wrote: »
    Ancestry gave me just two genetic communities and they are very general, the circles covering most of the island except the west. 'Munster' and 'Irish in the North Midlands' are my genetic communities, they say. This covers most of what I have found thru the paper trail. It does not cover my great-great grandfather from Ballintoy, Co Antrim. Too bad as I have grown very attached to him--even visited last year--tea with cousins at the old farm--unforgettable.

    Via the arduous paper trail, I have gotten to townland and/or parish for 9 of my 16 great-great grandparents. I have gotten to the county for 1 more. 4 more were from Ireland, place of origin still unknown. 2 were from Spain and indeed the DNA results showed me as 13% Iberian Peninsula, almost exactly the 12.5% that 1 great-great grandparent represents.

    On Ancestry DNA, I can't seem to find the smaller genetic communities that make up the larger regions mentioned above. Anyone know?

    To see the smaller genetic communities, click to View Your Genetic Ancestry, click on the genetic communities part, then click View All for the Genetic Communities, click into Europe, Ireland and then the genetic community you've been given. Only the genetic communities that you're part of will appear. For me when I click into Connacht, only Galway and North Connacht appear. Hope this helps.


  • #428
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    I haven't found the genetic communities to be of any use yet. I think they must need a certain number of people to be worthwhile. I have just one: Munster Irish, which appears to cover the entire lower half of the country. I'm only aware of definite ancestors from Limerick on one grandparent's line, and she also has Welsh ancestry. Everyone else is from Dublin for the last 5 generations...

    I find the genetic communities more interesting than useful. I'd say that they'd be useful for someone, for example that doesn't know where in Ireland their ancestors came from.


  • #429
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    I have done that repeatedly and just tried again. All I get are 3 choices--Ulster Irish-5 genetic communities, Connacht Irish-5 genetic communities, Munster Irish-6 communities. There is no way to click into the names of those genetic communities, tho one of mine appears to be 'Irish in the North Midlands'.

    Thanks for the suggestion tho.


  • #430
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    VirginiaB wrote: »
    I have done that repeatedly and just tried again. All I get are 3 choices--Ulster Irish-5 genetic communities, Connacht Irish-5 genetic communities, Munster Irish-6 communities. There is no way to click into the names of those genetic communities, tho one of mine appears to be 'Irish in the North Midlands'.

    Thanks for the suggestion tho.

    That's strange. You should be able to click into them to see the sub-regions anyway. When I click into Connacht saying 5 genetic communities, on the map on the right only two genetic communities appear. People seem to be getting different features oddly enough. Online I've seen an eye colour for genetic communities but that never comes up for me.

    I'm just attaching the image that I see for my results on the left. There's another kit that I manage that has no Connacht genetic communities and this is what they see in comparison on the right.


  • #431
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    I tried going in thru Ancestry.ie and Ancestry.co.uk but same results. Thanks for all the suggestions.


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  • #432
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    When I look at the Munster Irish, I see 6 sub communities but the 6 are just paragraphs of info about different periods of migration.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #433
    KildareFan
    Registered Users Posts: 683 ✭✭✭KildareFan


    My brother and I have both done the Ancestry DNA test - some small but interesting differences. I'm 78% Irish, he's 73%; I've 1% Caucasus, he has 3%....

    Some of my known relatives with whom I had no DNA matches are matched to him which was a relief.


  • #434
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    That's what I see, Pinkypinky. And KildareFan, those percentages are well within the normal margin of error. This is definitely not an exact science.


  • #435
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    VirginiaB wrote: »
    That's what I see, Pinkypinky. And KildareFan, those percentages are well within the normal margin of error. This is definitely not an exact science.

    I believe that it is an exact science, but one has to spend a considerable amount of cash to get the ‘right’ answer. I think that too many people put too much faith (hope?) in what DNA will do for their genealogy and ‘walk’ into DNA without fully understanding the implications. When I took the FTDNA 37marker Y-DNA test I thought I would discover something new. No such luck, Each of the 17 ‘close’ matches has a different surname, none is mine. I’m the only one in the entire database with that surname thus the result is inconclusive. Now the suggestion is that I upgrade to a more sophisticated (& much more expensive) test.

    Ancestry’s autosomal test shows me to be Munster Irish. No big surprise , when twelve of my 16 gggrandparents are from there with typical / common Munster names. I got just one close match, we know each other/meet periodically so that gave me nothing. I’ve two third cousins listed – their names are unknown in my quite comprehensive tree, neither has been online since March & April of this year.

    People also underestimate the amount of time required to learn the science of the results. The advertising by DNA companies creates a very high expectation, but in reality a successful outcome requires a good understanding of DNA and frequently depends on others who have tested, have done some geno research and most importantly who bother to respond to emails! Hopefully the BTOP lectures (See ‘Events’ thread) will shed some additional light.


  • #436
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Well we aren't far off the medical grade full genome for about $1,000. What I will say is that many tests that are available are 'low' for the exact reason that they need to be to attract people to them. Of course over time the cost of tests do come down.

    But as a comparison I got my Y-Chromosome sequence couple of years ago for about $700, a number of other men in my genetic cluster did the same as a result it's possible to map out the shared mutations and branches in the lineage:

    a100-july.png

    Black can be an angliscation for the same name in Irish that gave us Duffy (Ó Dubhthaigh eg. descendant of Dubhthach), of course what's interesting is that the three individuals with surname Black (Moore is case of surname change, ancestor was surnamed Black) all probably share a common ancestor in the early 18th century in North America, this ancestor had spilt from my own line probably during the middle ages, as a result they have a number of mutations that I don't carry.

    Fisher (who has matched called Salmon -- both angliscations of Ó Bradáin potentially) in comparison spilt alot further back, probably during the early medieval period (5th-8th century), he shows up as a match for myself at only 67 STR's (not at either 37 or 111).

    At the moment we are awaiting on another match bearing the surname Dowie (Dowey is a Donegal angliscation of Ó Dubhthaigh) to get his results, what's interesting about him is his parents were from Antrim (and Presbytrian to boot!). It will be interesting to see how he clusters as he's closer to them at 37,67,111 STR's than he is to myself.

    To give another example, here is a tree built out of BigY results from men with origins in west of Ireland. The McManus family is historically noted as a branch of the O'Connor's of Connacht:

    a259-june.png

    The four McManus kits on extreme left share a common ancestor who lived in colonial SE USA in the 1770's (he's down as a 'patriot') unsurprisingly they share 2 unique genetic markers not found in the next McManus kit. Some analysis actually puts the spilt between the two lines at about 600 years.

    Stagpoole line is originally from west Galway (though surname is of Norman origin usually associated with Limerick). What's interesting about that kit is he shares at least two unique genetic markers with kit bearing the surname Connor (recent BigY not on that tree), they thus share a branch that is 'upstream' of the McManus men (eg. their lineage spilt first). All these inidividuals are close matches to a kit that belongs to a near relative of the current 'O'Conor Don'. The implication is that there is a good possibility that the DNA is actually backing up the historical genealogies when it comes to the branching of the McManus family from the O'Connor's during the 13th/14th century (they claim descent form Maghnus Ua Conchobhair d.1181). The current estimate is that the common ancestor of the McManus men with Stagpoole (and Connor individual) is about 1000 years ago

    This hints that the Stagpoole individual might be a result of surname change at some stage (he has several other O'Connor matches as well as a McDermott match who haven't done advanced testing).

    Of course getting people with deep lineages to do advance testing can provide an anchor line, so for example Baron Inchiquin (the 32nd great-grandson of Brian Boru) did BigY testing, his lineage thus provides a baseline for mutations among matching men bearing surname O'Brien (and other Dál gCais surnames)


  • #437
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    When I look at the Munster Irish, I see 6 sub communities but the 6 are just paragraphs of info about different periods of migration.

    I'm sure that you're probably following the steps that I gave but I'm just going to include a full screenshot of the page you see before seeing the communities and the page showing the communities in case I'm not explaining it clearly enough. I've come across people posting about genetic communities that have a lot more features in yours than mine so it might just not be available to everyone. It's a shame that the same features don't seem to be available to everyone.

    All of the sub-groups of the main Genetic community has the same history. They don't have any unique details given to them. You also can't see your likelihood of a connection to the sub-group is (it used to though as North Connacht was 60% and Galway was 20% for me) and you can't see what number of matches share this community with you.
    dubhthach wrote: »
    Stagpoole line is originally from west Galway (though surname is of Norman origin usually associated with Limerick). What's interesting about that kit is he shares at least two unique genetic markers with kit bearing the surname Connor (recent BigY not on that tree), they thus share a branch that is 'upstream' of the McManus men (eg. their lineage spilt first). All these inidividuals are close matches to a kit that belongs to a near relative of the current 'O'Conor Don'. The implication is that there is a good possibility that the DNA is actually backing up the historical genealogies when it comes to the branching of the McManus family from the O'Connor's during the 13th/14th century (they claim descent form Maghnus Ua Conchobhair d.1181). The current estimate is that the common ancestor of the McManus men with Stagpoole (and Connor individual) is about 1000 years ago

    This hints that the Stagpoole individual might be a result of surname change at some stage (he has several other O'Connor matches as well as a McDermott match who haven't done advanced testing).

    Of course getting people with deep lineages to do advance testing can provide an anchor line, so for example Baron Inchiquin (the 32nd great-grandson of Brian Boru) did BigY testing, his lineage thus provides a baseline for mutations among matching men bearing surname O'Brien (and other Dál gCais surnames)

    It is very interesting what these Y-DNA tests can reveal if enough people in a group are willing to pay for the Big Y. They've done the same for the Ui Mhaine Kellys by getting the Chief of the name to carry out the test. Based on his pedigree going back centuries it's possibly to determine what common ancestor is shared with the Count if a person matches with these Kellys. They are trying to get other Kellys with a known pedigree to test too so that the main Kelly branches would be covered. I never knew that there was a pedigree going back to Brian Boru. It's amazing that some families did keep these pedigrees going back so far.


  • #438
    spurious
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 27,103 CMod ✭✭✭✭spurious


    I just did an autosomal test, looking for relatives descended from the folk who left in the 19th century. I have a paternal great uncle who disappears after reporting his father's death in 1902, so I was hoping to find some trace of him, but nothing so far.

    So far I have found someone related to my mother's aunt and another person for whom the common ancestor is my great great great grandfather. Both sides can document the link, so that was kind of exciting. Even more so, the 'other side' can trace themselves back to New Amsterdam, so they are practically American royalty.

    I have a number of DNA cousins to go through and 'prove' as paper cousins, but I am finding it very interesting so far. The DNA is great for insisting there is a link, I just need to find it. Strategic testing of other family members is letting me sort out the matches a bit.


  • #439
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    So I see those links too but they just manifest as views of voyages from Munster to various places - waves of emigration. It doesn't sub-divide into people who share that group with me. I also see a number 5 plus a list of my own direct ancestors with links to Munster.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really see the use of genetic communities at all. It's just nice graphics.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #440
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    So I see those links too but they just manifest as views of voyages from Munster to various places - waves of emigration. It doesn't sub-divide into people who share that group with me. I also see a number 5 plus a list of my own direct ancestors with links to Munster.

    I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really see the use of genetic communities at all. It's just nice graphics.

    Yes I can see those migrations too but I only see those when I click straight into my genetic community instead of clicking to View All first.

    I see my overall Connacht genetic community and migrations from there when I click the name of the community indicated by the red arrow in the picture.

    I can see all of the communities in the world and then by clicking into my own community from there shows my subgroups by clicking into View All indicated by the green arrow.

    I'm pretty sure that at this stage I'm being more of an annoyance than a help but hey I've gotta try anyway.


  • #441
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Ok - I see what you're at now. Too tired to play with it properly though. I'll review tomorrow.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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  • #442
    dubhthach
    Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    srmf5 wrote: »
    It is very interesting what these Y-DNA tests can reveal if enough people in a group are willing to pay for the Big Y. They've done the same for the Ui Mhaine Kellys by getting the Chief of the name to carry out the test. Based on his pedigree going back centuries it's possibly to determine what common ancestor is shared with the Count if a person matches with these Kellys. They are trying to get other Kellys with a known pedigree to test too so that the main Kelly branches would be covered. I never knew that there was a pedigree going back to Brian Boru. It's amazing that some families did keep these pedigrees going back so far.

    Indeed and what's interesting is the dating for the Y-Chromosome haplogroups that the Kelly's fall into. All the men in this genetic cluster with surname Kelly who have done BigY appear to belong to a 'clade' that began to expand in the 13th century, which is interesting considering the De Burgh invasion of Connacht in mid 13th century.

    Here's an interesting blog post about BigY testing:

    http://ultimatefamilyhistorians.blogspot.ie/2017/10/the-bigy-test-from-family-tree-dna-can.html

    In that case the individuals closest BigY match (different surname) probably shares a common ancestry with the blogger during the 14th-15th century.


  • #443
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    dubhthach wrote: »
    Indeed and what's interesting is the dating for the Y-Chromosome haplogroups that the Kelly's fall into. All the men in this genetic cluster with surname Kelly who have done BigY appear to belong to a 'clade' that began to expand in the 13th century, which is interesting considering the De Burgh invasion of Connacht in mid 13th century.

    Here's an interesting blog post about BigY testing:

    http://ultimatefamilyhistorians.blogspot.ie/2017/10/the-bigy-test-from-family-tree-dna-can.html

    In that case the individuals closest BigY match (different surname) probably shares a common ancestry with the blogger during the 14th-15th century.

    Yes I had noticed that alright. Everyone in the Ui Mhaine group seems to descend from a man that died in the 1200s. I suppose it's possible that the other lines might have died out or just not have tested yet. The 1200s is far back enough in fairness I suppose. What would you think that the reason for this is or how might the Burkes have affected this?

    Thanks for that link. It was an interesting read.


  • #444
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Ok - I see what you're at now. Too tired to play with it properly though. I'll review tomorrow.

    It's also possible to know the names of these communities when viewing your DNA matches. You can click on 'Genetic communities' as a filter. When you 'select genetic community', it gives the overall communities and the smaller sub-communities to choose from in a drop-down box.


  • #445
    VirginiaB
    Registered Users Posts: 399 ✭✭VirginiaB


    Not in my DNA results. Ancestry shows two genetic communities but clicking shows no drop-down menu of smaller sub-communities on either one.


  • #446
    srmf5
    Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭srmf5


    VirginiaB wrote: »
    Not in my DNA results. Ancestry shows two genetic communities but clicking shows no drop-down menu of smaller sub-communities on either one.

    I'm referring to the DNA matches section.


  • #447
    leck
    Registered Users Posts: 1,357 ✭✭✭leck


    Another way of seeing the genetic communities in which you are placed is to go to DNA Results Summary--> View All DNA Matches. At the top of your match list, click on Genetic Communities to filter by those. Only the genetic communities and subgroups to which you belong will appear in the dropdown.

    I think it can be very useful. If for example you had one grandparent from Belfast and one from Galway, your should appear in at least Ulster Irish and Connacht Irish and when you filter your matches, you can examine those two sets separately.

    EDITED TO ADD: While I was thinking through all that srmf5 said the same thing.


  • #448
    pinkypinky
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,614 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    You realise that article is 2 years old?

    Where did you see about insisting on a DNA test? Can you link to it please?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #449
    A New earth
    Registered Users Posts: 551 ✭✭✭A New earth


    pedroeibar1 wrote: »
    I believe that it is an exact science, but one has to spend a considerable amount of cash to get the ‘right’ answer. I think that too many people put too much faith (hope?) in what DNA will do for their genealogy and ‘walk’ into DNA without fully understanding the implications. When I took the FTDNA 37marker Y-DNA test I thought I would discover something new. No such luck, Each of the 17 ‘close’ matches has a different surname, none is mine. I’m the only one in the entire database with that surname thus the result is inconclusive. Now the suggestion is that I upgrade to a more sophisticated (& much more expensive) test.

    Ancestry’s autosomal test shows me to be Munster Irish. No big surprise , when twelve of my 16 gggrandparents are from there with typical / common Munster names. I got just one close match, we know each other/meet periodically so that gave me nothing. I’ve two third cousins listed – their names are unknown in my quite comprehensive tree, neither has been online since March & April of this year.



    People also underestimate the amount of time required to learn the science of the results. The advertising by DNA companies creates a very high expectation, but in reality a successful outcome requires a good understanding of DNA and frequently depends on others who have tested, have done some geno research and most importantly who bother to respond to emails! Hopefully the BTOP lectures (See ‘Events’ thread) will shed some additional light.

    Have you tried gedmatch and if so did you find any close matches there?


  • #450
    pedroeibar1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    A New earth wrote: »
    Have you tried gedmatch and if so did you find any close matches there?

    Yes. These are my close matches

    Largest segment = 30.3 cM
    Total of segments > 7 cM = 53.8 cM
    2 matching segments
    Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.0

    Followed by
    Largest segment = 17.1 cM
    Total of segments > 7 cM = 30.6 cM
    2 matching segments
    Estimated number of generations to MRCA = 4.4


    The first is living in Ireland, has no tree and I suspect is descended from a sibling of my paternal greatgrandmother.

    The second, in the USA, has a tree, responded to email and our common ancestor is possibly my maternal greatgreatgreat grandfather born about 1800.


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  • #451
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,299 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    As you say the article is implying all sorts but it never actually gets into exactly what Ancestry can and will do but rather talks about what they could or might do instead.

    From Ancestry International DNA, LLC - Terms and Conditions May 24, 2017
    3. Ancestry does not share Additional User Information with employers or insurance providers, or third party marketers without your consent. In addition, Ancestry will not share your Genetic Information with law enforcement unless compelled by valid legal process as described in our Privacy Policy.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



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