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Issues concerning possessing an Irish fake ID

  • 30-04-2007 5:29pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13 Man Down


    Hi guys.

    A mate of mine recently 'acquired' herself a fake ID in the form of a printed up provisional driving licence.

    I'm just curious what the potential consequences this may have on her if she is caught? Say for example in a hypothetical if she goes to the door of a nightclub and a bouncer refueses her admission, can he call the gardaí and have her arrested for it? And what exactly would the charge be?

    Also, if after closing time or at any stage during the night when you are walking through the town or city center, can a gaurd demand you to empty your pockets or open your wallet/purse etc..? I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to unless they have reasonable suspicion but if performing a random search my friends ID was found by a guard it would be very unlucky and unfortunate indeed.

    Just curious about this, she asked me to do some scoping on the web..


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭burnedfaceman


    I have previously worked on a door, bouncers have to do security course and know all about how to spot fake ids, have the right to hold onto fake ones too as far as i remember.. it all depends on the club you are trying to get into usually the bouncer has made up his mind before even looked at ID. I dont think guards are in the business of stopping and searching people randomly but if they did they are well within rights to seize fake ID and you may be charged for possession of a forged Govt. ID


  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 10,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Robbo


    The Criminal Law (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act 2001 is "her" friend. She can have her pick of Forgery (unlimited fine and 10 years in the big house), or Using a False Instrument (same maximum penalties).

    Of course the most likely outcome is that a bouncer will just confiscate it if he thinks it's dodgy and send your "friend" on her way.


  • Registered Users Posts: 668 ✭✭✭blow69


    What will most likely happen is the bouncers will tell you to get lost and give you back the card.the police can't search you without some sort of a warrant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 929 ✭✭✭sternn


    It happened to my friend about two years ago, he was caught with a fake id.

    He was brought to the station and parents were brought in etc...etc... He had to say where he got it from, and after that, he got a court summons a cuple of months later. He had a liason officer for a year, who did random checks etc...not too sure of the details. He wasnt put in jail or nethin, dont even think he got a fine. Was just warned (because it was his first offence) and that was that.
    He is 18 now so there's no problem!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    blow69 wrote:
    the police can't search you without some sort of a warrant.

    WTF?? where on earth did you get that idea?

    A Guard can search you even if they just feel like it.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,649 ✭✭✭Catari Jaguar


    ChRoMe wrote:
    WTF?? where on earth did you get that idea?

    A Guard can search you even if they just feel like it.

    Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

    If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

    Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,330 ✭✭✭Gran Hermano


    Last I heard once they have reason to believe that drugs are involved
    they can go where they want and search whatever they want.
    A great excuse for them to do as they like... all they have to say
    is they thought they saw some suspicious substance in her handbag
    or she looked under the influence of some narcotic.. And refusal
    to show what's in your bag/wallet/purse could be seen as you
    obviously having something to hide and therefore reasonable grounds
    to search. Damned if you do and damned if you don't!

    So don't think the police cant check your handbag for no reason.
    And wouldn't it be a pity if whilst checking the happened upon the
    fake ID.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,584 ✭✭✭shane86


    Cant believe a bouncer could be arsed reporting it unless the person gave him cheek after being refused. Id a load of fake IDs when I was younger. Places that didnt care would let you in, and some older or foreign bar/offy staff would pass them too.

    Best refusal I ever saw was at 21s door one night a while back. Nice blonde one, southside, comes up with what presumably was her sisters Garda ID

    Bouncer "Hmm, Sarah O`Reilly.....whats your date of birth Sarah"
    Girl (confident as you like) "8th of October 1986"
    Bouncer" You know, you have gorgeous brown eyes"
    Girl (thinking shes playing a bouncer on the horn) "Ah thanks very much, your not bad yourself"
    Bouncer "Yeah.....the girl in this photo has blue eyes. On your bike" :D:D

    As I waved in behind her she started protesting she was wearing contacts, dunno if she got in but good instant excuse to come up with :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭TJJP


    I have previously worked on a door, bouncers have to do security course and know all about how to spot fake ids, have the right to hold onto fake ones too as far as i remember.
    Robbo wrote:
    Of course the most likely outcome is that a bouncer will just confiscate it if he thinks it's dodgy and send your "friend" on her way.

    Weird, most of the questions here are related to the rights or wrongs of Gardai actions, yet nobody blinks an eyelid when two posters suggest that door staff 'have the right' to 'confiscate' items from punters.

    Jaysus, someone call the Private Security Authority (PSA) quick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,382 ✭✭✭✭cson


    Right, my experiences on this are;

    If you are under 18 years of age the Gardai cannot search your person without the consent of your parents/guardian.

    First-hand experience of the law: Myself and 3 mates came out of Croke Aprk after the all-ireland club finals last year. We'd won and made a beeline for the nearest pub which happened to be Quinns.

    Now 2 of my mates had scanned one of their parents driving licences and messed about with them on the computer so that it fitted them. I don't know why Quinns had bouncers on the door as this was 3pm and AFAIK they cannot refuse you entry before 9pm.

    Well we went in pairs, myself and my other mate, and the two with the fake licences. We got stopped and said we hadn't ID but our parents were inside, got in no problem. The two others.... well one got asked and one just walked straight in.

    Bouncer took the fake licence off my mate, obviously recognised it for what it was and took it straight to the guards who were standing no more than 10 feet away. Didn't think it'd be a major biggie myself so I came out saw the guards having a chat with him, thinking it'd just be a strong word and he'd be on his merry way I went into the Centra next door for a coke.

    Came out, mate in the back of a patrol car, took off up the street with the sirens on. Turns out forging a government document is quite a serious offence. He was held and questioned for 2 hours. Luckily one of us was 18 and could sign him out. He had one of those juvenile records that stay until your 18 and had a liason officer visit him a few times.

    So morale of the story, do not forge a govt document.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,886 ✭✭✭beans


    AFAIK they cannot refuse you entry before 9pm

    This true? Doesn't sound right, surely door staff could refuse you any time they want. Anyone?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,584 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Lil Kitten wrote:

    Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

    what a load of bull on that site:
    wrote:
    It is often said that 'If a Garda asks you for your name and address, you must give it to him'.
    I've heard a lot of people say it and I hear activists say it to eachother with full conviction. I've heard cops and legal people say it. The ICCL even advise it.

    It’s bull****, it’s a lie and we've got to get that into our heads. If you believe it's true then you must obviously have knowledge of the relevant provision in law, and please post it here as a comment, with ’chapter and verse’ please, if you do.

    sites like that should just be taken down.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭ChRoMe


    Lil Kitten wrote:
    Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

    If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

    Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

    Im taking from that idealisitc post that you dont have much experience of dealing with the Guards (that and using a indymedia link as your evidence!). If you refuse they will just make you do it (and usually give you a slap for being smart).

    Its that simple.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,401 ✭✭✭✭Anti


    By friend, you obvious mean yoreself......

    Nice try at covering up, but you aint foooling me that easy !!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭Kernel


    Lil Kitten wrote:
    Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

    If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

    Here's a site, maybe somewhat biased, but it has your rights of what you are entitled to say or do when approached by a Garda
    http://www.indymedia.ie/article/82108

    Meh, rubbish tbh. Reasonable suspicion of crime = search.


  • Subscribers Posts: 32,846 ✭✭✭✭5starpool


    #Elites wrote:
    indymedia is a pile of ****e anyway :rolleyes: its more of a "we hate the Garda/state" site.
    I have no idea if there is a mayday march today as I haven't heard, but they might get another chance to use their honed sense of moral outrage again if the hippies get out of line today.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,585 ✭✭✭HelterSkelter


    Lil Kitten wrote:
    Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

    Not allowed and not doing are two entirely different things!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,330 ✭✭✭Gran Hermano


    Lil Kitten wrote:
    Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

    Ahh the innocence of youth... all they need is suspicion and as I said
    you refusing gives them more than enough suspicion for an Irish judge.
    And telling them that you read your rights on Indymedia... well you're
    just asking for more trouble!
    Fair? No
    Reality? Yes


  • Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Ruen


    I have previously worked on a door, bouncers have to do security course and know all about how to spot fake ids, have the right to hold onto fake ones too as far as i remember
    I'm not a bouncer, but does that mean I can still confiscate stuff off people?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    ...know all about how to spot fake ids...

    This is utter nonsence, the only people, by law, qualified to dtermine the authenticity of an i.d. are Gardai, Immigration officers and some branch of the court whose name I forget.

    The bouncer can call a gard if he suspects an i.d. is fake however.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    Man Down wrote:
    ...I'm pretty sure they are not allowed to unless they have reasonable suspicion...

    Nah, that's an American thing. A gard can request i.d from anyone on a licensed premesis at any time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭HammerHeadGym


    beans wrote:
    This true? Doesn't sound right, surely door staff could refuse you any time they want. Anyone?

    Nope. Management, or an agent acting on behalf of management (a bouncer, for instance) has the right to refuse admission to anyone, at any time.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Lil Kitten wrote:
    Are you being sarcastic? They're not allowed to check your bag, or your car for that matter, or enter your house without a warrant unless it's the Misuse of Drugs Act and the Criminal Law Act 1997.

    If they stop you and ask to search they have to give reason and name the law they are acting under

    Can I come and live in your version of Ireland please?
    You'll find the gardaí will use the misuse of drugs act or the public order act as a coverall for searches of property or for control of people....same way as they'll use the offences against the state act as a coverall in any sort of gun crime.
    The only thing they need a warrant for is to search a premises...your vehicle and your person are fair game, once they have "reasonable suspicion", which generally equates to not liking the look of you.


  • Registered Users Posts: 363 ✭✭Ruen


    You're dead right, a bouncer or any private citizen for that matter is in no position to determine the legal authenticity of an official document.
    I'm amazed most people havent mentioned the guy who was a bouncer and thinks they have the legal authority to confiscate your possessions:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,196 ✭✭✭Crumble Froo


    under 18s are legally allowed in a licenced premises until 9pm, but, as far as i know, if the owners of the place want to check ID at the door as a means to make sure u18s dont end up buying drink on their premises, then they are entitled to.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭jimi_t


    narco wrote:
    under 18s are legally allowed in a licenced premises until 9pm, but, as far as i know, if the owners of the place want to check ID at the door as a means to make sure u18s dont end up buying drink on their premises, then they are entitled to.

    Regardless of that, all licenced premises reserve the right to refuse admission. They don't have to give a reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 20,617 ✭✭✭✭PHB


    I'm pretty simple really.

    If a Bouncer thinks your ID is fake, he has no technical right to take it. That said, if he does, and you report it, you get done for having a fake ID.

    However, this can lead to funny situations, where bouncers are sure that the ID's are fake, and procede to rip them up.
    A friend of mine had his actual driving liencence ripped up by a bouncer. Needless to say, he got in a bit of hassle for that, and eventually got fired :P

    As for the Guards and search powers, the issue of reasonableness is what it's all about, and it will depend on what judge you get.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 10,910 ✭✭✭✭RoundyMooney


    some hippy wrote:
    A garda’s fingers are generally believed to be about 25mm in diameter and covered in fur.

    Gotta love Indymedia:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    They usually threaten the holder with a fine and possible court charge, unless of course she tells them where she got it...


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 373 ✭✭burnedfaceman


    were i worked there was a lot of under 18s trying to enter on forged IDs, the local garda sergeant had requested us to confiscate any suspect ids and forward them to his station... if people had a problem with that they could go pick their ID up from the garda station near the club.

    determining if an ID is quite easy once put under UV light as scanned and altered documents do not have relevant watermarks etc.


This discussion has been closed.
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