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Is organic farming sustainable in Ireland?

  • 24-12-2010 12:09pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    One of the great projects of Trevor Sargent when he was Minister for Horticulture was a push on farmers markets and the expansion of Organic Food production in Ireland. But with the current economic downturn and our climate is it really sustainable or a pipe dream?

    My opinion is that organic farming has its merits but its too exclusive and limited to sustain the majority of the Irish population. Apart from Dairy and Meat(96% of our organic land is under pastures and meadows) the other organic areas are too limited to have an impact and the Irish climate limits us. Bord Bia have come out with reports like the below in recent years but I would never consider them the most reliable source and they seem to have a fondness of finding results that the Minister at the time wishes to read. So is Irish Organic Farming another policy failure of the Greens?


    Bord Bia 2008
    Organic sales increase by 82% - from €57 million to €104 million

    45% of Irish grocery shoppers bought organic produce in the last month

    According to new research announced today at Bord Bia’s National Organic Food Conference, organic sales in Ireland have increased by 82%, reaching a value of €104 million in the year to July 2008, compared to €57 million in the year to July 2006*The research also revealed 45% of Irish grocery shoppers purchased an organic product in the last month, a significant increase from 20% in 2003.

    During his address Minister of State at the Department of Agriculture, Fisheries & Food Trevor Sargent T.D., said “Organic farming has a major role to play in meeting the ever increasing challenges of depleting oil supplies, climate change and the provision of a sustainable supply of food. More farmers producing organic food here in Ireland would mean more jobs at home and less energy used worldwide.The future is bright for organic food and farming in Ireland and I am totally committed to helping the organic sector grow and develop to its full potential.”


    Latest Eurostat Figures on Organic Farming in EU & Norway
    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Organic_farming_statistics


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 1,286 ✭✭✭Gael


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    One of the great projects of Trevor Sargent when he was Minister for Horticulture was a push on farmers markets and the expansion of Organic Food production in Ireland. But with the current economic downturn and our climate is it really sustainable or a pipe dream?

    My opinion is that organic farming has its merits but its too exclusive and limited to sustain the majority of the Irish population. Apart from Dairy and Meat(96% of our organic land is under pastures and meadows) the other organic areas are too limited to have an impact and the Irish climate limits us. Bord Bia have come out with reports like the below in recent years but I would never consider them the most reliable source and they seem to have a fondness of finding results that the Minister at the time wishes to read. So is Irish Organic Farming another policy failure of the Greens?


    Bord Bia 2008



    Latest Eurostat Figures on Organic Farming in EU & Norway
    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Organic_farming_statistics

    Do the stats at the link you provide contradict the Bord Bia figures? Have you some analysis to hand that someone has done on the viability of organic farming, or is this just your personal impression of the industry?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 Oscardela


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    One of the great projects of Trevor Sargent when he was Minister for Horticulture was a push on farmers markets and the expansion of Organic Food production in Ireland. But with the current economic downturn and our climate is it really sustainable or a pipe dream?

    My opinion is that organic farming has its merits but its too exclusive and limited to sustain the majority of the Irish population. Apart from Dairy and Meat(96% of our organic land is under pastures and meadows) the other organic areas are too limited to have an impact and the Irish climate limits us. Bord Bia have come out with reports like the below in recent years but I would never consider them the most reliable source and they seem to have a fondness of finding results that the Minister at the time wishes to read. So is Irish Organic Farming another policy failure of the Greens?


    Bord Bia 2008



    Latest Eurostat Figures on Organic Farming in EU & Norway
    http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index.php/Organic_farming_statistics

    I've seen farmers markets all over the place. It's all foreign cheese, olives, and I'd be surprised if 10% of the goods sold there have anything to do with Irish Farmers. Might you be confusing Country Markets with Farmers Markets?

    If you are trying to revert to a situation where the Irish Population is fed by Irish farmers, and we are reduced to eating only produce grown in Ireland, I'm afraid that battle was lost years ago, thankfully. Irish Farmers export much more foodstuffs than we import, and it would be a terrible step ro return to an isolationist society where we were not able to import oranges from lemons, olive oil, macadamia nuts and a whole host of wonderful foods which make all our lives more interesting and worthwhile.

    I wonder how much support Trevor Sargeant and his fellow greens have for their exciting and innovative plans for us all? I'm sure we'll see the full extent of support in the country after the upcoming elections.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,736 ✭✭✭OctavarIan


    I'd personally love to see more organic community supported agriculture in this country, especially in the east. On a local level it works very well for everyone involved.

    For anyone unfamiliar with the model, you pay a farm a set sum of money at the start of the year, and each week during harvest season you pick up or get delivered your share of that week's produce. It gives some peace of mind and security to the farm while fostering a good sense of community and friendship. It also cuts out the worst stage of production, the reseller.

    But on a national level? Is organic farming sustainable in Ireland? Well you'd need a LOT of land, capital and labor to make it work. I'm not sure we meet any of those three requirements right now.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Gael wrote: »
    Do the stats at the link you provide contradict the Bord Bia figures? Have you some analysis to hand that someone has done on the viability of organic farming, or is this just your personal impression of the industry?

    Nope because the Bord Bia stats are retail/consumer stats and the Euro stats are agricultural/production stats if you read them. It was just to provide further information for people with a poor undestanding of the organic food sector in Ireland. Why would I use totally different subject stats to contradict one another?

    Its my opinion thats why I started the paragraph "In my opinion". Sorry if it wasn't more obvious for you. Basically the greens had a vision to increase organic production in Ireland with farmers markets selling local produced organic products but the industry is heavily skewed towards animals and their by products. Their are one or two large organic growers of produce, small local suppliers but as one poster here points out alot of the products sold at these venues is either/and
    • isn't Irish
    • isn't organic
    • isn't local

    Farners Markets don't seem to be regulated in the way supermarkets are inspected by the Dept of Agriculture to ensure they correctly display country of origins. People sometimes assume that when carrots have soil on them and tops they must be organic or local.

    Secondly the vast majority of us still buy are groceries in the major multiples and even when times were good have you ever seen anyone with a full basket of organic products at the checkout? Typically organic food costs 10%-40% more than the conventional line. Google it and you will get any number of cost models that organic farming is more expensive mainly due to the extra labour costs and poorer yields.

    The majority of shoppers that can afford organic like to buy one or two lines to feel that we are doing are bit or the store ran out of conventional product and we ended up buying the organic ones or that we actually like the organic product above its conventional competitor lines. Thats why I would take the Bord Bia data with a pinch of salt.

    The consumer can also be vague on what they see as organic, A well know NI potato supplier sells a Fertilser Free Brand of potatoes in shops and supermarkets throughout Ireland, Several people I have questioned that bought this line assume its organic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    OctavarIan wrote: »
    I'd personally love to see more organic community supported agriculture in this country, especially in the east. On a local level it works very well for everyone involved.

    For anyone unfamiliar with the model, you pay a farm a set sum of money at the start of the year, and each week during harvest season you pick up or get delivered your share of that week's produce. It gives some peace of mind and security to the farm while fostering a good sense of community and friendship. It also cuts out the worst stage of production, the reseller.

    But on a national level? Is organic farming sustainable in Ireland? Well you'd need a LOT of land, capital and labor to make it work. I'm not sure we meet any of those three requirements right now.

    Climate is essential too.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 36 Oscardela


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    ... provide further information for people with a poor undestanding of the organic food sector in Ireland. Why would I use totally different subject stats to contradict one another?

    Its my opinion thats why I started the paragraph "In my opinion". Sorry if it wasn't more obvious for you. Basically the greens had a vision to increase organic production in Ireland with farmers markets selling local produced organic products but the industry is heavily skewed towards animals and their by products. Their are one or two large organic growers of produce, small local suppliers but as one poster here points out alot of the products sold at these venues is either/and
    • isn't Irish
    • isn't organic
    • isn't local

    Farners Markets don't seem to be regulated in the way supermarkets are inspected by the Dept of Agriculture to ensure they correctly display country of origins. People sometimes assume that when carrots have soil on them and tops they must be organic or local...

    It seems you are still confused about the diference between "Farmers Markets" and "Country Markets", so perhaps your claim that "people" have a poor understanding is more widespread that even you realise!

    Farmers markets in ireland clain to have;
    • Organic Fruit & Vegetables (Largest selection on display anywhere in Ireland - over 200 varieties)
    • Organic & Free Range Meats
    • Organic Eggs
    • Organic Bread & Speciality Cakes
    • Organic & Farmhouse Cheeses
    • Organic Herbs, whole food, Craft Bakeries
    • Islamic Food & Gourmet Pies
    • Chatuturie & French Paterise
    • Fresh Fish & Shellfish
    • Free Trade Coffee beans and teas, Juice Bar
    • Artisan foods including oils, olives, salads, chutneys, pasta, nuts, jams, chocolates, home made fudge, wine.
    • Mexican, Japanese, Italian, French, German, Lebanese, Indian and Malaysian Foods Stalls
    • Craft Stalls: Toys, Linen, Jewellery, clothes & Jewellery
    • Massage, bottled waters, Plants & Fresh Flowers
    As you can see, over 200 types of fruit and vegatables, coffee, tea, Olives, oils, Mexican, Japanese, Italian, French, German, Lebanese, Indian and Malaysian Foods Stalls and so have no connection whatever to Irish farmers, nor any connection to being organic or not.

    Just because it's called "Farmers markets" might conjure up an image of Irish farmers toiling the soil, but don't be deceived by the name. The people involved in the "Farmers Markets" are generally traders who, for example, buy fruit and vegatables in the dublin markets and, just like any other retailer in ireland, sell them to consumers. Just because they do it outside in supermarket car parks, or wherever else, does not mean they have any connection to "farmers" and the name is just a clever piece of marketing.

    The Country Markets Ltd was established in 1946 by the Irish Homespun Society and the Irish Countrywomen’s Association. Country Markets Limited was established as a totally independent registered co-operative Society and was affiliated to I.C.O.S. (Irish Co-operative Organisation Society) in early 1947.
    The aim of Country Markets Limited is to market, by co-operative means, producer members’ good fresh quality farm, garden and home produce and traditional crafts using our natural resources. Marketing co-operatively in this way it is hoped to enhance, in a small way the family income.



    Generally speaking, the members of the Country Markets, themselves, grow the produce they bring to the markets for sale. It's important to understand the difference. If you are in any doubt, go to a "Farmers market" and then go to a "Country Market" (http://www.countrymarkets.ie/our-markets).


    The Greens are no doubt well intentioned, but the Country Markets have been going for decades before the Green Party was even a twinkle in the eye of Christopher Fettes.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Oscardela wrote: »
    It seems you are still confused about the diference between "Farmers Markets" and "Country Markets", so perhaps your claim that "people" have a poor understanding is more widespread that even you realise!

    Farmers markets in ireland clain to have;
    • Organic Fruit & Vegetables (Largest selection on display anywhere in Ireland - over 200 varieties)
    • Organic & Free Range Meats
    • Organic Eggs
    • Organic Bread & Speciality Cakes
    • Organic & Farmhouse Cheeses
    • Organic Herbs, whole food, Craft Bakeries
    • Islamic Food & Gourmet Pies
    • Chatuturie & French Paterise
    • Fresh Fish & Shellfish
    • Free Trade Coffee beans and teas, Juice Bar
    • Artisan foods including oils, olives, salads, chutneys, pasta, nuts, jams, chocolates, home made fudge, wine.
    • Mexican, Japanese, Italian, French, German, Lebanese, Indian and Malaysian Foods Stalls
    • Craft Stalls: Toys, Linen, Jewellery, clothes & Jewellery
    • Massage, bottled waters, Plants & Fresh Flowers
    As you can see, over 200 types of fruit and vegatables, coffee, tea, Olives, oils, Mexican, Japanese, Italian, French, German, Lebanese, Indian and Malaysian Foods Stalls and so have no connection whatever to Irish farmers, nor any connection to being organic or not.

    Just because it's called "Farmers markets" might conjure up an image of Irish farmers toiling the soil, but don't be deceived by the name. The people involved in the "Farmers Markets" are generally traders who, for example, buy fruit and vegatables in the dublin markets and, just like any other retailer in ireland, sell them to consumers. Just because they do it outside in supermarket car parks, or wherever else, does not mean they have any connection to "farmers" and the name is just a clever piece of marketing.

    The Country Markets Ltd was established in 1946 by the Irish Homespun Society and the Irish Countrywomen’s Association. Country Markets Limited was established as a totally independent registered co-operative Society and was affiliated to I.C.O.S. (Irish Co-operative Organisation Society) in early 1947.
    The aim of Country Markets Limited is to market, by co-operative means, producer members’ good fresh quality farm, garden and home produce and traditional crafts using our natural resources. Marketing co-operatively in this way it is hoped to enhance, in a small way the family income.



    Generally speaking, the members of the Country Markets, themselves, grow the produce they bring to the markets for sale. It's important to understand the difference. If you are in any doubt, go to a "Farmers market" and then go to a "Country Market" (http://www.countrymarkets.ie/our-markets).


    The Greens are no doubt well intentioned, but the Country Markets have been going for decades before the Green Party was even a twinkle in the eye of Christopher Fettes.

    Did I ever mention country markets? While you have twice, are you connected to them?

    I am more specifically talking about the organic sector and the green policy that farmers markets would supply the irish consumer directly with organic produce. Is it sustainable?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 521 ✭✭✭Atilathehun


    If Trevor Sargent, the failed minister for carrotts, had his way the whole world would change to organic food production.
    There would mass starvation and famines within a few years. Only the rich would be able to purchase food!
    Of course the consequent collapse of the worlds population, would lead to less fossile fuel consumption, less pollution, less plastic bags, less of all the stuff the greens don't like.
    Hey presto ............. one of the great desires of the greens would have been achieved. A greener, cleaner, world.
    This organic food thing is a sinister plot coming form the bicycle clip brigade:mad:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Less of the conspiracy theories and pejorative language please.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 559 ✭✭✭Ghost Estate


    The real question would be is inorganic farming sustainable?

    How much more fertiliser, pesticides and antibiotics can we throw at the environment before we run into serious problems?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭MacraPat


    I think we need to have a look at the work of Joe Salatin. His farm called Polyface Farm is beyond organic, it's efficient and profitable too. It mimics nature in every way possible. It's local, he only sell to those within a two hour drive. This is what we should really be promoting.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    The real question would be is inorganic farming sustainable?

    How much more fertiliser, pesticides and antibiotics can we throw at the environment before we run into serious problems?

    Should have thought we had long past that point. :(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    MacraPat wrote: »
    I think we need to have a look at the work of Joe Salatin. His farm called Polyface Farm is beyond organic, it's efficient and profitable too. It mimics nature in every way possible. It's local, he only sell to those within a two hour drive. This is what we should really be promoting.

    There is always space for one or two model farms like the Salatin model but your not exactly going to feed Ireland or have a sustainable organic industry. To have a successful organic farm you need one a lot of land for rotation purposes and a good mix of livestock and horticulture production. Climate as we have said before is a major restriction in Ireland so if you wish to over come that you need a cheap and sustainable energy source to provide heating otherwise the range of fruits and vegetables avaliable to the consumer throughout the year ebbs and flows or can not be grown in Ireland. Are Irish consumers prepared to live with seasonality?

    Would the carbon footprint of growing organic food abroad in a thirdworld/ or warmer climate country and shipping to Ireland be less than trying to grow in Ireland? Some experts think so.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    The real question would be is inorganic farming sustainable?

    How much more fertiliser, pesticides and antibiotics can we throw at the environment before we run into serious problems?

    At the end of the day farms are a business so if the farmer can limit the inputs of pesticides, fertiliser and antibiotics they save themselves money. Fertiliser prices have shot through the roof in the last few years and supermarkets now are paying less than they did 5 years ago.

    Biological controls have been used in the last 15 years to reduce pesticide usage and the Irish farmer has less pesticides at his disposal because he can only use whats licensed on the Irish market and chemical companies are unwilling to pay for the license for such a small customer base.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Is organic farming sustainable in Ireland?

    If the Greens climate change bill passes

    Them kiss goodbye to a large chunk of farming, organic or otherwise in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 120 ✭✭MacraPat


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    There is always space for one or two model farms like the Salatin model but your not exactly going to feed Ireland or have a sustainable organic industry. To have a successful organic farm you need one a lot of land for rotation purposes and a good mix of livestock and horticulture production.

    Why not? Ok there's no vegetables produced but what about the:
    40,000lbs of beef,
    30,000lbs of pork,
    25,000 dozen eggs,
    20,000 broilers,
    1000 Turkeys and 1000 Rabbits produced all on only 100 acres.
    In a similar set up Castlemaine Farm, of Co.Roscommon have blended livestock and Arable systems successfully. It really depends on the quality of land. Grazed beef and Dairy are most popular and easy to do in Ireland given our climate so why not just intensify that grazing with more species?
    Livestock and Horticulture systems as you mentioned above will work in the good vegetable land of north county Dublin,Wexford or around Cork City here vegetable production could be emphasized to counter the lack of production in other areas.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    MacraPat wrote: »
    Why not? Ok there's no vegetables produced but what about the:
    40,000lbs of beef,
    30,000lbs of pork,
    25,000 dozen eggs,
    20,000 broilers,
    1000 Turkeys and 1000 Rabbits produced all on only 100 acres.
    In a similar set up Castlemaine Farm, of Co.Roscommon have blended livestock and Arable systems successfully. It really depends on the quality of land. Grazed beef and Dairy are most popular and easy to do in Ireland given our climate so why not just intensify that grazing with more species?
    Livestock and Horticulture systems as you mentioned above will work in the good vegetable land of north county Dublin,Wexford or around Cork City here vegetable production could be emphasized to counter the lack of production in other areas.


    I live in North Co Dublin actually and I know a little about the horticulture side. If you have to ship in Organic FYM from the west of Ireland it doesnt really work. Much more sustainable if you have mixed farms as you can feed the waste veg to the animals and use the FYM to fertlise the fields or use as plant feed or hot beds or as an energy source. Also with conventional farming along side organic your going to have spray drift. Remember more organic products fail pesticide testing than conventional because organic have no acceptable MRL. So you need to have a sustanial block of land, this area is a patch work quilt of different land owners or turn the whole area organic.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    If the Greens climate change bill passes

    Them kiss goodbye to a large chunk of farming, organic or otherwise in Ireland.
    What nonsense. Where's the evidence for such a claim?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    The real question would be is inorganic farming sustainable?

    How much more fertiliser, pesticides and antibiotics can we throw at the environment before we run into serious problems?

    Interesting quote from the Green Party when you consider the rant about farmers using pesticides.
    Pesticides
    It is now known that the most damage by pesticide and herbicide residues to waterways is done by councils and amateur gardeners spraying along the verges of paths and roadways, where the runoff goes directly down the drains. Certain pesticides and herbicides should no longer be available straight over the counter but should only be purchased with a licence from designated outlets, as in Germany.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Macha wrote: »
    What nonsense. Where's the evidence for such a claim?

    Anyone got a link to the climate change bill draft and not a ranting newspaper article?


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  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Corsendonk wrote: »
    Anyone got a link to the climate change bill draft and not a ranting newspaper article?

    http://www.environ.ie/en/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,25002,en.pdf

    If you read it, you'll note the clear absence of sector-specific targets.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Macha wrote: »
    http://www.environ.ie/en/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,25002,en.pdf

    If you read it, you'll note the clear absence of sector-specific targets.

    Then who pays for it :rolleyes:


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    ei.sdraob wrote: »
    Then who pays for it :rolleyes:
    Pays for what?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,603 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    If Trevor Sargent, the failed minister for carrotts, had his way the whole world would change to organic food production.
    There would mass starvation and famines within a few years. Only the rich would be able to purchase food!
    Of course the consequent collapse of the worlds population, would lead to less fossile fuel consumption, less pollution, less plastic bags, less of all the stuff the greens don't like.
    Hey presto ............. one of the great desires of the greens would have been achieved. A greener, cleaner, world.
    This organic food thing is a sinister plot coming form the bicycle clip brigade:mad:

    Yeah - thank God for Monsanto and DDT:rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,603 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    The market for organics continues to increase worldwide on the back of among other things food scares like the one recently in Germany, problems with contaminated milk in China etc.. Unfortunately this country has failed to capitalise on this (Ireland is at the bottom of the EU league for land under organic production) due to hostilty from vested interests in big-agri business and the failure of state bodies like Teagasc to move with the times:(


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 82 ✭✭MalteseBarry


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The market for organics continues to increase worldwide on the back of among other things food scares like the one recently in Germany, problems with contaminated milk in China etc.. Unfortunately this country has failed to capitalise on this (Ireland is at the bottom of the EU league for land under organic production) due to hostilty from vested interests in big-agri business and the failure of state bodies like Teagasc to move with the times:(

    Ah, the oul "hostility from vested interests in big agribusiness". Organic farming is also an "agri business" and run by those with a "vested interest" in making it work. Both organic, and conventional, forms of agriculture are valuable and worthwhile, and to imply that we'd all be better off with only organic farming, seems to be avoiding some realities.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Macha wrote: »
    Pays for what?

    meeting the ~30% targets of course

    our emissions wont cut themselves by 30% without someone somewhere paying for it

    stop trying to make it out as if there is no cost


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The market for organics continues to increase worldwide on the back of among other things food scares like the one recently in Germany, problems with contaminated milk in China etc.. Unfortunately this country has failed to capitalise on this (Ireland is at the bottom of the EU league for land under organic production) due to hostilty from vested interests in big-agri business and the failure of state bodies like Teagasc to move with the times:(


    I think you mean its not sustainable in our climate on any large scale. Of course the organic market will increase worldwide as certain areas of the world economy experience booms, As I explained before apart from the odd fruit and vegetable grower most of our organic sector is dairy/meat due to our climate. Italy, Spain and Greece sit on top of the organic production table because they have good sunny climates needed to produce crops all year round.

    Who are these big vested interests in big agr business? I never actually hear any names mentioned.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,871 ✭✭✭Corsendonk


    Macha wrote: »
    http://www.environ.ie/en/PublicationsDocuments/FileDownLoad,25002,en.pdf

    If you read it, you'll note the clear absence of sector-specific targets.

    Has any research been done to quantify what emmission levels each sector of industry produces in Ireland?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,603 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Corsendonk wrote: »

    Who are these big vested interests in big agr business? I never actually hear any names mentioned.

    Monsanto, Bayer, Novartis to name but a few etc.


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