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Ireland has the highest proportion of under occupied dwellings in the EU.

«134567

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    I think we're a way off that beauf:

    Ireland has the highest proportion of under occupied dwellings in the EU.

    70% of the population in Ireland were living in under-occupied dwellings in 2016.
    In contrast, fewer than 15% of the population in Europe were living in dwellings deemed to be too large.

    https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/majority-of-underoccupied-dwellings-in-europe-found-in-ireland-37011949.html / Eurostat

    I wonder how that relates to how many live in urban/rural areas compared the urban density in other countries.

    https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=People_in_the_EU_-_statistics_on_housing_conditions

    It will be interesting to see a breakdown of the age profile if occupants and housing type and location of those properties under occupied.

    Irish media (and reporter's) have a habit of being economical with the stats it reports. They do this a lot with cycling stats


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    Surely that underoccupancy relates directly to poor planning? With urban and rural sprawl, how many of those properties are near public transport links, amenities etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Probably a reflection on our legal system, the time it takes and the cost to change property. Also disfunctional rental legislation.




  • pwurple wrote: »
    Under occupancy here is precisely because of our high owner occupancy. The traditional set up is to buy a house as a couple with 3 or 4 bedrooms and under-occupy it.

    Over time, have two children, who move out and under occupy their own place somewhere else. Their childhood bedroom is left, unoccupied as a shrine, until the parents shuffle on to one of them passing away, or maybe into a nursing home... Once they are both gone, probate and repurposing the house takes another number of years.

    Over the 60 or 70 years of living in the 4 bed house, it is used to capacity for maybe 18 of those.

    So now homelessness is caused by selfish people saving up, getting a mortgage, rearing a family and wanting to actually live in the house they actually BOUGHT?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Who said people were selfish?

    The fact is we have the highest rates, if not the highest rate of under-occupancy in the EU. There's no point pretending otherwise.

    What that tells us is we're using property inefficiently.

    FYI under occupancy is also a significant issue in LA housing.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod Note

    As this is an interesting enough topic on its own, I've split the under occupancy discussion out to its own thread.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    beauf wrote: »
    Probably a reflection on our legal system, the time it takes and the cost to change property. Also disfunctional rental legislation.

    Things you don’t like?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    So now homelessness is caused by selfish people saving up, getting a mortgage, rearing a family and wanting to actually live in the house they actually BOUGHT?

    Yes. To a certain extent. So is the refugee crisis. What either need is a bed not a house.


  • Registered Users Posts: 625 ✭✭✭Cal4567


    So now homelessness is caused by selfish people saving up, getting a mortgage, rearing a family and wanting to actually live in the house they actually BOUGHT?

    No. It is just no efficient within the wider built economy. Probably ok up until the Celtic Tiger years but now we have become a bit like everywhere else with all everywhere else issues, such as housing demand. Before the CT years we could have survived as we always did, but those days have gone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Things you don’t like?

    Is there any situation where people want more legal delays and added expense?

    I don't get what you are asking....


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Ireland has chronic dwelling under occupancy because of legal delays? :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,658 ✭✭✭✭OldMrBrennan83


    The first answer to the headline is So What? Is this the next thing now, no point in working for anything?

    With everyone being forced into bike and buses and now this will prompt being forced to live in shoeboxes, it's getting to the stage where there's not much point in bothering with anything.


    _


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    ...
    The fact is we have the highest rates, if not the highest rate of under-occupancy in the EU.. .

    What that tells us is we're using property inefficiently.

    FYI under occupancy is also a significant issue in LA housing.

    ... It's very hard to discuss when we have no background on there or what is underutilised. It's just a random stats with no background or context.

    People jump to assumption is old people in large houses when previous reports suggested this wasnt that big an issue. Also people wanting to rent or buy first property don't generally buy or afford these houses.

    So then we usually come back to mobility of being able to change houses. Likewise older people downsizing. But people suggesting that have usually no experience if trying to do that. They assume it's a lot easier and cheaper than it is.

    This rush to build smaller and denser properties that are poorly serviced with amenities and locations will be a mistake. We've done it before. But never learn the lessons.

    When we compare underutilised housing Europe wide we are comparing with places like Romania. Which have very little underutilization. Is that what we want.

    The housing shortage isn't caused by this. It's other policies. Many deliberate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The first answer to the headline is So What? Is this the next thing now, no point in working for anything?

    first timer buyers and rented are over represented on these forums. So the discussions are biased in favor of their immediate issues. If you were on financial forum there would be biased differently, as the age and economic profile would be different. That's just life.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    Ireland has chronic dwelling under occupancy because of legal delays? :confused:

    If course not. It's multi faceted issue. Not caused by any one factor that people love to blow out of proportion.

    What's the average time taken to sort out a Will or downside an older person property. Why do people generally not do it. Are we building retirement village that are fully serviced? What's the cost to change. If someone is in a nursing home how long before their house is repurposed?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    People jump to assumption is old people in large houses when previous reports suggested this wasnt that big an issue. Also people wanting to rent or buy first property don't generally buy or afford these houses.

    I can't imagine that assumption is correct. While it's no doubt part of the issue, there is no way it could account for 70%.


  • Registered Users Posts: 403 ✭✭ml100


    So now homelessness is caused by selfish people saving up, getting a mortgage, rearing a family and wanting to actually live in the house they actually BOUGHT?

    Wasn't there some numbers published a while ago of the number of council owned houses with only 1 occupant, maybe the government should start there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    beauf wrote: »
    What's the average time taken to sort out a Will or downside an older person property. Why do people generally not do it. Are we building retirement village that are fully serviced? What's the cost to change. If someone is in a nursing home how long before their house is repurposed?
    Probate typically takes 4-6 months and depends on "delays" in the Probate Office, may be a good bit longer if there is property involved. Downsizing is a problem in the sense that there may be nowhere to downsize to. A couple I knew wanted to move from 3 bed suburban into an inner suburbs 2 bed apartment. They had even gone Sale Agreed before they added up the ongoing cost of management and other ancillary fees on the apartment they liked, so they remained in the house.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    beauf wrote: »
    Is there any situation where people want more legal delays and added expense?

    I don't get what you are asking....

    You listed stuff you don’t like. How is either causing this? If people wanted to downsize they would. “Interference in the housing market” is a statement not a proof.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    ml100 wrote: »
    Wasn't there some numbers published a while ago of the number of council owned houses with only 1 occupant, maybe the government should start there.

    Something in the region of 25% of LA housing is under occupied.

    It's certainly one area that needs to be looked at.

    Similarly, given the increasing numbers of 1 and 2 person households it's also fairly obvious there's not going to be a 3-bed semi in the burbs for everyone in the audience.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    ml100 wrote: »

    Wasn't there some numbers published a while ago of the number of council owned houses with only 1 occupant, maybe the government should start there.

    This was the bedroom tax applied in the U.K.


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    ml100 wrote: »

    Wasn't there some numbers published a while ago of the number of council owned houses with only 1 occupant, maybe the government should start there.

    No, the point is that we now have too many oversized houses to match our likely modern household units. Bad planning is an awful lot more to blame along with our reluctance to see beyond the house with a garden.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    You listed stuff you don’t like. How is either causing this? If people wanted to downsize they would. “Interference in the housing market” is a statement not a proof.

    So I say it's multi faceted and you wanted to discuss it as a single issue? I don't agree with your premise.

    I tried to help some family to downsize and there was nothing suitable or cost effective to down size too. I heard similar from other people also.

    No idea what you mean by interference or from where you are referencing that.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    beauf wrote: »
    I tried to help some family to downsize and there was nothing suitable or cost effective to down size too. I heard similar from other people also.

    Planning/taxation policy could start and influence behaviour there for both owners and developers.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    is_that_so wrote: »
    No, the point is that we now have too many oversized houses to match our likely modern household units. Bad planning is an awful lot more to blame along with our reluctance to see beyond the house with a garden.

    I'm not seeing a oversupply of houses. When they do go on sale they get snapped up, at the right price point.

    That there is a huge demand for apartments in cities is a separate issue. REITs are concentrating on apartments they seem to be the majority of new builds at the moment. Of course they won't be cheap.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Interesting commentary from Conor Skeehan in an Indo article from the end of last year:
    The supply of traditional semi-detached houses will meet and "begin to exceed" demand in the New Year for the first time since the recovery from the economic crash more than a decade ago, according to housing experts.
    But the "over-supply" of what will be in many cases unaffordable houses in locations congested and poorly served by public transport will lead to what is being called a "new housing crisis".
    Mr Skehan predicts the over-supply of the wrong type of housing, the lack of convenient rental properties, and increasing rents will lead to the emergence of what he calls a "new urban politics".

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/new-housing-crisis-on-horizon-as-supply-comes-on-stream-in-wrong-areas-37666390.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not seeing a oversupply of houses. When they do go on sale they get snapped up, at the right price point.

    That there is a huge demand for apartments in cities is a separate issue. REITs are concentrating on apartments they seem to be the majority of new builds at the moment. Of course they won't be cheap.
    There's a huge deficit of apartments as well, something like 10K in Dublin. We actually need the cheaper end ones as well, lots of them - not the communal area for 40 idea, but there is scope for something like that too. Most of all we have to go upwards.
    I agree with the repurposing or resizing of some properties as a possible option to be explored.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    Planning/taxation policy could start and influence behaviour there for both owners and developers.

    Remember the tax incentive apartments back in the 90s


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 4,691 ✭✭✭4ensic15


    Graham wrote: »
    Ireland has chronic dwelling under occupancy because of legal delays? :confused:

    It would be more to do with the mechanics of downsizing. It is a daunting prospect for a septuagenarian to contemplate selling tyheir home and buying another. They may not have ready cash for deposits, legal fees and the ability to borrow. In addition, Selling, renting and buying again is not easy. No wonder they stay in their houses till they die.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    4ensic15 wrote: »
    It would be more to do with the mechanics of downsizing. It is a daunting prospect for a septuagenarian to contemplate selling tyheir home and buying another. They may not have ready cash for deposits, legal fees and the ability to borrow. In addition, Selling, renting and buying again is not easy. No wonder they stay in their houses till they die.

    70% of the population live in under occupied dwellings.
    70% of the population are not septuagenarians.


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