General Star Trek thread

breezy1985 · 30-05-2021 7:05pm

IvySlayer wrote: »

Apparently, Tom Paris was supposed to be the main character along with Janeway. On the pilot they spend a lot of time with Paris and his backstory.

He was also supposed to be Locarno but they would have had to pay the writer royalties for every episode or something like that so they made a Locarnoesque character

Evade · 30-05-2021 7:25pm

breezy1985 wrote: »

He was also supposed to be Locarno but they would have had to pay the writer royalties for every episode or something like that so they made a Locarnoesque character

There's another minor but important change. Locarno got someone killed because he wanted to show off, in Tom's case it was the result of pilot error. It makes Tom a lot more sympathetic.

Rawr · 30-05-2021 7:53pm

TheValeyard wrote: »

And terrorist /freedom fighter

And helped He-Man defeat Skeletor!

....I'm deadly serious....

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjdB7qtkY1I1CIUWn3oK1UWnx2TBYO1h1E96TwFBJsfaD9QXJRsAS1dVmze1VfNEn4apc&usqp=CAU

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRjdB7qtkY1I1CIUWn3oK1UWnx2TBYO1h1E96TwFBJsfaD9QXJRsAS1dVmze1VfNEn4apc&usqp=CAU

breezy1985 · 30-05-2021 8:12pm

Rawr wrote: »

And helped He-Man defeat Skeletor!

....I'm deadly serious....

Is that Cox with him?

Edit: yes it is because you helpfully put the IMDB link that I was too daft to see

Cookie_Monster · 31-05-2021 3:58am

Evade wrote: »

It should have been much closer. If the Discovery and the rest of the Crossfields as a technology test beds were slightly older than the Constitution class it wouldn't have made much of a difference but its a registry is way too low.

To be absolutely fair, it's not the first time something like this has happened and the three times that I know of were on DS9.
The most obvious one is why Sisko's Defiant is NX-74205 and not NX-1764-Letter taking the registry from TOS' Defiant. Maybe as a prototype it got a registry before a name and that's why or something to do with how the 1764 one was stricken. The real reason is it was supposed to be called Valiant but hero ships in the concurrent series both starting with V was thought to be too confusing.

Another one of Sisko's ships, the one he was on at Wolf-359, was the Saratoga but NCC-31911 not NCC-1887 like the one in the Voyage Home. Both were Miranda classes too which makes it stranger still.

Lastly. There was a USS Bellerophon at Wolf-359, a Nebula class NCC-62048, which was obviously destroyed. But then a less than a decade later in universe there's a USS Bellerophon that take a delegation to Romulus, an Intrepid class NCC-74705.

I'm more forgiving of stuff like this in older series because they didn't have access to the massive nerd fuelled repository I used to check the registry numbers just now.

LCARS displays were full of set designer jokes.

reusing names would not necessarily mean reusing reg number though. I would assume most names get recycled when the ship is destroyed or retired, with only famous / significant ones retaining the registry.

Enterprise (ENT) also sets the precedent of NX not translating to NCC of TOS

Evade · 31-05-2021 5:17am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

reusing names would not necessarily mean reusing reg number though. I would assume most names get recycled when the ship is destroyed or retired, with only famous / significant ones retaining the registry.

You're right. There might be enough of a gap between the Saratogas and first two, that we know of, Defiants but the Bellerephons are too close to not have a letter. The former Sao Paolo Defiant was supposed to be Defiant A but that would have meant changing it on all the stock shots they used which would have been too expensive

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Enterprise (ENT) also sets the precedent of NX not translating to NCC of TOS

In the Feferation Starfleet NX is used for potential class leaders and other prototypes. The ones that make it to class leader eventually get an NCC registry, Sisko's Defiant(s) being an exception. In STII Excelsior is NX-2000 and NCC-2000 in STVI.

On ENT the NX-01 after being refit was supposed to be changed to SS-01. In some non TV media this would have been called Columbia class because Columbia was refit first and that ended the prototype stage of the NX class

AMKC · 05-06-2021 10:43pm

What would you love to see done if TNG and DS9 are ever digitally remastered? Me I would like to see more variety in ships so in TNG I would love to see some Ambassadir class ships meeting Enterprise sometimes and maybe in season seven they could put in an Intrepid class ship. In DS9 I would love to see more variety of ships in the big battles like some Ambassador class ships some Intrepid class ships and some Soverign class ships as well.
What you do or love to see?

Evade · 05-06-2021 11:03pm

TNG did get a digital touch up when it was remastered a few years ago. Aside from cleaning up mistakes and replacing existing shots I don't think much should be added. I can't remember if when TNG was remastered they removed the really obvious reflection of the sound guy in a crystal in an early episode. I can't think of the title off the top of my head.

EDIT: It was Unification II, much later than I thought, and they did edit it.
https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Unification_II_(episode)#Production

IvySlayer · 06-06-2021 3:39am

AMKC wrote: »

What would you love to see done if TNG and DS9 are ever digitally remastered? Me I would like to see more variety in ships so in TNG I would love to see some Ambassadir class ships meeting Enterprise sometimes and maybe in season seven they could put in an Intrepid class ship. In DS9 I would love to see more variety of ships in the big battles like some Ambassador class ships some Intrepid class ships and some Soverign class ships as well.
What you do or love to see?

In the episode 'Disaster' they say the Enterprise is heavily damaged but when they show the outside of the ship you can't see any damage, just the lights gone out.

breezy1985 · 06-06-2021 9:37am

IvySlayer wrote: »

In the episode 'Disaster' they say the Enterprise is heavily damaged but when they show the outside of the ship you can't see any damage, just the lights gone out.

I havnt seen it in a while but I thought the damage was more electromagnetic.

As for DS9 it really bugged me how old those fleets were even in some of the most important battles in Starfleets history they are just throwing old Mirandas at the Dominion

Rawr · 06-06-2021 9:50am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I havnt seen it in a while but I thought the damage was more electromagnetic.

As for DS9 it really bugged me how old those fleets were even in some of the most important battles in Starfleets history they are just throwing old Mirandas at the Dominion

Kind of agree, but also throwing Mirandas at the Jem Hadar kind of illustrated the desperation of Starfleet at that stage. They were pressing any ship with a working warp drive into the fight, and even kit-bashing old Excelsiors into Curry-class fighter carriers. It's very reminiscent of the Yesterday's Enterprise Klingon War, were Picard secretly shares the dire state of Starfleet, and that even the older Enterprise C would be used for the fight.

It also underlines a thick-headed management of a the fleet that even after Wolf 359, Starfleet Command only sort of started building warships, and then dropped things like the Defiant project before long. It feels like things like the Norway Class and the Sovereign Class were developed *just in time* and only because the Dominion was identified as a real threat.

pixelburp · 06-06-2021 9:58am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I havnt seen it in a while but I thought the damage was more electromagnetic.

As for DS9 it really bugged me how old those fleets were even in some of the most important battles in Starfleets history they are just throwing old Mirandas at the Dominion

To be cynical it was probably a cannon fodder approach, assuming the budget excuse isn't trotted out. Mirandas can take a beating and may have been used to soften up the enemy front lines before the heavy hitters came out. In the fringe systems they may have also been closer to the battle, given the show ponies were more likely to be stationed in key systems than at Backwater IV in the WhoCares system.

As to their age, In the real world, you have the US army still using b52 bombers despite nearing 80 years old; while when the Nazis invaded, France - despite technically having more numbers and tougher tanks - was bulked out with old ww1 vehicles (there was more to it than that but that's a segue). Even in a post scarcity utopia modernisation is probably a touchy subject. And politically delicate of Starfleet are seen to be replacing all those Mirandas with flashy new warships.

Evade · 06-06-2021 10:46am

There's other things to consider with all the older ships in Dominion War fleets. They could have been fighting alongside the ships that would have replaced them if the war hadn't broken out (Akiras for Mirandas for example) or they were reactivated mothballed ships (the US Navy maintains older ships they can reactivate if they need to) or some of both. Then again Geordi could have been directly quoting Starfleet regulations when he told Scotty "just because something is old doesn't mean you throw it away."

But the Miranda in Endgame is a lot more questionable they should have been the first ones to be deactivated in the post war wind down.

B-52s are 69 years old, almost 80 would make them WWII aircraft. The bulk of German tanks during the invasion of France were Panzer Is and IIs both less than a decade old by that time.

pixelburp · 06-06-2021 11:16am

Evade wrote: »

But the Miranda in Endgame is a lot more questionable they should have been the first ones to be deactivated in the post war wind down.

B-52s are 69 years old, almost 80 would make them WWII aircraft. The bulk of German tanks during the invasion of France were Panzer Is and IIs both less than a decade old by that time.

That's still an incredible lifespan for something that was first deployed in the 1950s during the cold war. Be like biplanes in Vietnam

It doesn't necessarily fit with the image of the US as the most advanced army. IIRC they're still using old spyplanes too. My point was simply that seemingly tired old machines of war can still serve a purpose, even if far past their natural life. Not so much the French army example but like I said, that is a huge segue you can get sucked into. Better top down tactics and an air-force worth a damn and ww2 would have been a lot shorter

In any case I never got the sense the Federation were that smart or far thinking when it came to military matters. Makes sense really they'd be always a little off kilter to the rest of the galaxy.

Evade · 06-06-2021 11:41am

pixelburp wrote: »

That's still an incredible lifespan for something that was first deployed in the 1950s during the cold war. Be like biplanes in Vietnam It doesn't necessarily fit with the image of the US as the most advanced army. IIRC they're still using old spyplanes too. My point was simply that seemingly tired old machines of war can still serve a purpose, even if far past their natural life.

B-52s, U-2s, and Mirandas seem to be the embodiment of "if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it."

pixelburp wrote: »

Not so much the French army example but like I said, that is a huge segue you can get sucked into. Better top down tactics and an air-force worth a damn and ww2 would have been a lot shorter .

Or thinking the Germans wouldn't have the audacity to do the exact same thing as last time and take a short cut through Belgium. Maybe General Melchett from Blackadder was right after all.

pixelburp wrote: »

In any case I never got the sense the Federation were that smart or far thinking when it came to military matters. Makes sense really they'd be always a little off kilter to the rest of the galaxy.

Yeah, it never seemed to be a priority despite how many times they got into major and minor conflicts.

pixelburp · 06-06-2021 7:37pm

Evade wrote: »

Or thinking the Germans wouldn't have the audacity to do the exact same thing as last time and take a short cut through Belgium. Maybe General Melchett from Blackadder was right after all.

For sure, but once in France, bureaucracy and a terrible air-force ensured they could never push back the response. IIRC the Luftwaffe were borderline uncontested, even though the few modern french planes were superior. Not that the British forces were any better help, but the few times either force abandoned their trench doctrine they seemed to win decisively.

Shít! I did it again, sorry all. I find the Battle of France fascinating because while it only lasted a month, and snark persists towards french cowardice in their surrendering, the reality was a deeply complex situation of bad management and too-late reaction from technically superior forces.

Evade wrote: »

Yeah, it never seemed to be a priority despite how many times they got into major and minor conflicts.

I suppose, why would it? It'd be a very tough needle to thread; an ostensibly peaceful coalition of planets, prioritising exploration and non-interference but being also ready to pound any enemy that encroaches. Not sure how any structure maintains that balance. And excessive armament might be seen as provocation too, from the Klingon and Romulan POV (like how British and France actively stymied Poland from modernising itself to be ready for inevitable German invasion, blocking delivery of spitfires and the like... Ah shoot. Damnit Pixelburp :pac:

Evade · 06-06-2021 9:17pm

pixelburp wrote: »

I suppose, why would it? It'd be a very tough needle to thread; an ostensibly peaceful coalition of planets, prioritising exploration and non-interference but being also ready to pound any enemy that encroaches. Not sure how any structure maintains that balance. And excessive armament might be seen as provocation too, from the Klingon and Romulan POV

If we were to draw parallels to real life the Federation would be a neutral nation. But that doesn't mean not fighting it means being able to adequately defend your own nation without relying on others. There are people in Starfleet who recognise the Federation isn't able to defend itself, like Admiral Boone in the Pegasus or Captain Maxwell in the Wounded, but because they're the bad guy of the week they go about it the wrong way. Where they should be going about it by rules lawyering the treaties like a certain island nation forbidden by law from a standing military or operating aircraft carriers lest they try to take over half the planet again. They have a modern military, technically the fourth largest navy, ships that can launch aircraft, including fighters, they just call them a self defence force and helicopter destroyers. It's not the first time said island nation skirted naval limitations either.

There's a Star Trek reviewer I watch, SFDebris, who has an interesting idea about the pre Wolf-359 Federation in one of his many videos. It basically boils down to the Federation having an attitude of peace at any cost. Peace-ish with the Romulans - allow them a technological edge by treaty. Peace with the Cardassians - a really weird redraw of the border at the expense of our citizens and turning a blind eye to what was supposed to be a genocide if you don't ignore the stated numbers. Then the Borg attacked and they tried to build a warship escort vessel but then when the threat wasn't as immediate they shelved the idea.

Cookie_Monster · 07-06-2021 11:58am

AMKC wrote: »

What would you love to see done if TNG and DS9 are ever digitally remastered? Me I would like to see more variety in ships so in TNG I would love to see some Ambassadir class ships meeting Enterprise sometimes and maybe in season seven they could put in an Intrepid class ship. In DS9 I would love to see more variety of ships in the big battles like some Ambassador class ships some Intrepid class ships and some Soverign class ships as well.
What you do or love to see?

Give ships shields in the dominion war. For.some reason they had none and obvious got destroyed rather easily as a result

AMKC · 07-06-2021 5:08pm

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Give ships shields in the dominion war. For.some reason they had none and obvious got destroyed rather easily as a result

Yes good point. I would say do that was down to budget and time constraints as if they show the ships shields it will take longer and the battle would have to be longer. It would be cool if they did do but they might have to lengthen the length of the episodes and add in a whole new part to the episode as well.

Justin Credible Darts · 07-06-2021 7:23pm

Why did the federation ships not have cloaking devices,
surely a lot of patrol ships would have been saved, this ridiculous notion they had none cos of the romulans goes out the window when they were allies with the romulans against the dominion

Evade · 07-06-2021 8:39pm

Justin Credible Darts wrote: »

Why did the federation ships not have cloaking devices,
surely a lot of patrol ships would have been saved, this ridiculous notion they had none cos of the romulans goes out the window when they were allies with the romulans against the dominion

At that stage of the war letting ships already equipped cloaks with crews used to operating them cover that duty might have been more efficient.

ilovesmybrick · 07-06-2021 10:05pm

Just finished my first rewatch of Picard since it came out, spread over 2/3 days. I mostly enjoyed it when it came out, with some glaring (copy and paste) issues, but it really works so much better as a binge than a weekly show.All the hand wavey future stuff nonsense kind of fades into the background when watched as a whole. Except for the magic tool. That was too much. Still annoyed at the copy and paste fleet, and they kind of wasted the cube, but overall it was a pleasant rewatch.

Edit: Also, get rid of the stupid copy-paste fleets, make it a more realistic dozen or so ships (like we all said at the time), no need for stupid magic hand tool. Almost half my problems solved for the series, and all in one episode!

breezy1985 · 07-06-2021 10:27pm

ilovesmybrick wrote: »

Just finished my first rewatch of Picard since it came out, spread over 2/3 days. I mostly enjoyed it when it came out, with some glaring (copy and paste) issues, but it really works so much better as a binge than a weekly show.All the hand wavey future stuff nonsense kind of fades into the background when watched as a whole. Except for the magic tool. That was too much. Still annoyed at the copy and paste fleet, and they kind of wasted the cube, but overall it was a pleasant rewatch.

Edit: Also, get rid of the stupid copy-paste fleets, make it a more realistic dozen or so ships (like we all said at the time), no need for stupid magic hand tool. Almost half my problems solved for the series, and all in one episode!

I can even get over the weird tool but Trek really needs to stop the big Michael Bay style endings. The whole thing could have been the exact same with a few ships (well lit ships we can actually see)

Evade · 08-06-2021 1:01am

breezy1985 wrote: »

I can even get over the weird tool but Trek really needs to stop the big Michael Bay style endings. The whole thing could have been the exact same with a few ships (well lit ships we can actually see)

100%. Oh on a warbird, la Sirena, and Riker coming in on the Titan would have been much better, if a little STVI-ish. Dropping the robot gods nonsense would have been a huge improvement too.

Bobtheman · 09-06-2021 8:15am

G-Money wrote: »

I just finished watching The Visitor again. Words fail me. I don't think I've ever watched any TV show, film or anything else that affects me as much as that episode does. It's a beautifully crafted piece of work that choked me up and had tears rolling down my face several times. Simply stunning.

What show is that?

Rawr · 09-06-2021 8:38am

Bobtheman wrote: »

What show is that?

DS9.
An elderly Jake Sisko is telling the story of how he spent his life trying to save his father. You'd need a heart of stone not to be moved at least a little by that episode. If you haven't watched it before, do it now. "The Visitor" is DS9, and possibly Trek, at it's very best.

knucklehead6 · 09-06-2021 8:42am

Bobtheman wrote: »

What show is that?

DS9. The one where Sisko disappears and Jake gets old.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/The_Visitor_(episode)

pixelburp · 09-06-2021 9:04am

DS9 had the best character writing in Trek, hands down. So its solo adventures were nearly always Trek at its peak; Jake Sisko was a bit of a drip at times, but an infinitely better written and constructed character than Wesley ever was. It was also nice to watch a TV show where its father/teenage-son dynamic wasn't built on conflict or drama; they both loved and supported each other, even if they sometimes had different perspectives on topics.

Rawr · 09-06-2021 9:39am

pixelburp wrote: »

DS9 had the best character writing in Trek, hands down. So its solo adventures were nearly always Trek at its peak; Jake Sisko was a bit of a drip at times, but an infinitely better written and constructed character than Wesley ever was. It was also nice to watch a TV show where its father/teenage-son dynamic wasn't built on conflict or drama; they both loved and supported each other, even if they sometimes had different perspectives on topics.

Also Jake's antics with Nog gave the Station a proper community feel to it. They seemed like real kids, doing what real kids would do if stuck on a space station.

pixelburp · 09-06-2021 10:32am

Rawr wrote: »

Also Jake's antics with Nog gave the Station a proper community feel to it. They seemed like real kids, doing what real kids would do if stuck on a space station.

Writing for children is often a make-or-break with any production; it's incredibly difficult to get that sense of authentic young people, sounding and behaving like actual children. Stranger Things nailed it pretty well, whereas TNG was just fantastically awful; a child genius isn't impossible, but neither the writers nor actor could get a grasp on the character.

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