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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Optimalprimerib


    Why do people persist with this myth?


    "Håland had stated on his personal website that he had been playing with the injury to his left knee a few months, that it did not receive a knock in the game to his left leg (Keane went for his right leg), and that Keane did not cause his injury. Legal action was dropped in February 2003 after the club reviewed the medical advice."

    Probably because he said so in his book. Maybe not to injure but to "get" him.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 ✭✭✭munster87


    Steve Casey


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Motivator


    Especially the Scottish league, that's a really high standard. I know he was a decent player, but united had some squad. If u want to nominate a decorated player then John O'Shea is your man

    Mentioning medals doesn’t make him the best ever. There’s Kilkenny hurlers with 5 and 6 All Ireland medals that nobody has ever heard of and then there’s the likes of Ken McGrath who would walk into any team in history with no medals. This medal thing is a load of nonsense.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Probably because he said so in his book. Maybe not to injure but to "get" him.

    He never said he ended Haland's career in his book, because Haland's career ended due to an existing injury in his other leg, which is what it says in the comment you quoted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Motivator wrote: »
    Mentioning medals doesn’t make him the best ever. There’s Kilkenny hurlers with 5 and 6 All Ireland medals that nobody has ever heard of and then there’s the likes of Ken McGrath who would walk into any team in history with no medals. This medal thing is a load of nonsense.


    5 or 6 Premier League medals is a good deal more impressive than 5 or 6 All Ireland Medals.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 ✭✭✭munster87


    5 or 6 Premier League medals is a good deal more impressive than 5 or 6 All Ireland Medals.

    That’s opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    munster87 wrote: »
    That’s opinion.

    Not really, you play an enormous amount of games when taking cups into consideration and have to consistently perform week in and week out (against players from all over the world) to keep your place, and at a top club you will be replaced if you don't. Constant international scrutiny and pressure from fans, management and media. To do all of that 5 or 6 times is remarkable, and the wages and prize money reflect that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 ✭✭✭munster87


    Not really, you play an enormous amount of games when taking cups into consideration and have to consistently perform week in and week out (against players from all over the world) to keep your place, and at a top club you will be replaced if you don't. Constant international scrutiny and pressure from fans, management and media. To do all of that 5 or 6 times is remarkable, and the wages and prize money reflect that.

    Nope, still opinion.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    munster87 wrote: »
    Nope, still opinion.

    Great point. Winning a darts tournament in your local pub is may be as significant as winning a gold medal in the Olympics in that case. The stats, viewers and money involved all indicate that winning Premier League is a far greater achievement than winning an All Ireland which is an amateur competition. I would even argue that winning the Scottish league is more impressive than an all Ireland medal, given that professionals play it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Rockbeast2


    munster87 wrote: »
    Nope, still opinion.

    You certainly can't say that the Sky Sports marketing team haven't done a great job around these parts over the last 28 years! :)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 9,151 ✭✭✭limnam


    Our most successful Olympian does get forgotten about in these lists.


    Was she not stripped of medals for drug abuse?


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,151 ✭✭✭limnam


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    the fact the he threw a strop and walked out on his national team at the crucial moment


    He was sent home.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,213 ✭✭✭munster87


    Great point. Winning a darts tournament in your local pub is may be as significant as winning a gold medal in the Olympics in that case. The stats, viewers and money involved all indicate that winning Premier League is a far greater achievement than winning an All Ireland which is an amateur competition. I would even argue that winning the Scottish league is more impressive than an all Ireland medal, given that professionals play it.

    You could argue that, given that it is your opinion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,782 ✭✭✭DeanAustin


    Motivator wrote: »
    Padraig Harrington is the best sports person we have ever produced. For those of you with little to no interest in golf, just look up his achievements in 2007 and 2008 alone. He was the best player in the world, not on official rankings though - he was 3rd, but on form. He was playing unbelievable golf and won three majors in 12 months which won’t ever be done again by an Irish golfer. On top of his talent and achievements he’s an unbelievably nice man and a great ambassador for Ireland.

    Roy Keane being nominated is a joke and is being heralded as the greatest by biased Man United fans. Keane wasn’t even the best player in the Man United team and wouldn’t be in the top 3 midfielders to play in the Premier League. That’s a fact.

    Ah come on. You obviously aren’t a United fan. Personally, I hate Keane but he’s certainly in the conversation for greatest ever Irish sportsperson. He’s in there with Giles, Brady, O’Driscoll, Taylor and Harrington for me.

    This is the problem with this debate and Keane specifically. There are so many agendas affecting people’s opinions that the debate is polarised and reasoned debate is hard to come by. From the OPs, “there is no debate, it’s Keane” to your opinion on the other end of the spectrum.

    On Harrington, what he did was amazing but there are a couple of factors against him. It happened across a relatively short time frame, the greates golfer in the world wasn’t competing in some of those majors and I don’t agree that any other Irish golfer can’t do it. That said, I’d probably go for Harrington if I was pressed to name our greatest sports person.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,321 ✭✭✭✭eagle eye


    5 or 6 Premier League medals is a good deal more impressive than 5 or 6 All Ireland Medals.
    Did you read his comment or just read 5 or 6 All-Ireland medals?
    His point was the number of medals is not that important as there's plenty of players you wouldn't rate with lots of them.
    Nicky Butt has 6 Premier league medals, is he in the top ten players in the history of the premier league? Ryan Giggs has 13, does that make him the best ever?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    eagle eye wrote: »
    Did you read his comment or just read 5 or 6 All-Ireland medals?
    His point was the number of medals is not that important as there's plenty of players you wouldn't rate with lots of them.
    Nicky Butt has 6 Premier league medals, is he in the top ten players in the history of the premier league? Ryan Giggs has 13, does that make him the best ever?

    Did you read the thread title? I would say Giggs is up there with the greatest ever Welsh sports stars. Nicky Butt not so much, as there are a string of English players with more medals and better stats, or at least have made more of an impact on the winning team. He should be regarded as a great player though, you don't get carried to that many titles. There are also English sportsmen outside of football that are more successful. With Ireland the list isn't that long and Keane did both, had a massive impact on the team and won loads of medals.

    A lot of Kilkenny All Ireland players being lost to obscurity is just evidence that's it's not that big of an achievement. An Irishman going abroad and winning 6 or more titles is a much bigger deal, And definitely evidence of being a great sportsman.


  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Rockbeast2


    It appears that for many, medals won in the top English soccer league, more specifically from the introduction of "The Premier League" in 1992, are the only true barometer for sporting prowess or success on a national or international level.

    :confused:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Rockbeast2 wrote: »
    It appears that for many, medals won in the top English soccer league, more specifically from the introduction of "The Premier League" in 1992, are the only true barometer for sporting prowess or success on a national or international level.

    :confused:

    No one has said that. Competing with the world's best is a lot tougher than competing in amateur sport at a national level though. Sonia O Sullivan and Katie Taylor and many others have been rightly mentioned in the discussion too, because they went up against the best in the world. The Premier League has only been mentioned in the case of whether Keane specifically deserves to be regarded as the greatest Irish sports person.

    It's interesting that you use Moran's 88 and 90 international appearances as evidence of his greatness, but say that Keane not winning anything on an international level is evidence of failure. You just don't like him do you? Try to be objective about it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,136 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    I would give it to Sonia. Competing at the top in a very competitive sport for over a decade. World champion a few times, Olympic medalist, Europeans you name it. We forget how good she actually was.


  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Rockbeast2



    It's interesting that you use Moran's 88 and 90 international appearances as evidence of his greatness, but say that Keane not winning anything on an international level is evidence of failure. You just don't like him do you? Try to be objective about it.

    I have nothing against Keane. Have cheered him on always for Ireland and often in Europe with Man Utd.

    The main reason for my, admittedly left-field, choice of Moran is that he switched sports from GAA to soccer and had success in both.

    TBH I'd have Cork's Teddy McCarthy ahead of Keane for achievement of winning Football and Hurling All Irelands in same year.

    Other GAA shouts would be Shefflin and Cluxton.

    Sonia, Harrington and O'Driscoll have huge claims, too.

    I'll leave my contributions to this thread here!:)


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,885 ✭✭✭Optimalprimerib


    He never said he ended Haland's career in his book, because Haland's career ended due to an existing injury in his other leg, which is what it says in the comment you quoted.

    Meh either way, it still stands that he is unlikeable.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Meh either way, it still stands that he is unlikeable.

    I tend to agree, that's irrelevant in a discussion about sporting achievements though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,358 ✭✭✭Higgins5473


    limnam wrote: »
    Was she not stripped of medals for drug abuse?

    No, she still has them. She never tested positive for anything. She tampered with her piss test, apparently her test stank of whiskey. She should’ve gone with the tried and tested contamination method of wiping your arsehole with your finger and dipping it in the test. Slightly more plausible than producing a piss test that stinks and looks like a double shot of Jameson rare. Multiple accounts her dodging tests since the olympics. Quite a successful barrister now. Cheating cnut.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,867 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Ye he's certainly achieved the most anyway although i would say not the most naturally gifted Irish athlete ever. For me for raw talent Brady is our finest ever footballer not counting Best who played for NI. People mentioning Katie Taylor etc listen she's an incredible athlete but it's a really tiny minority sport you just can't compare it with an Irish man being captain and indispensable to at the time the biggest team in by far the world's biggest sport. Love him or hate him nobody else get's close to Roy Keane in terms of what he achieved in his sport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    He left to further his career, it's a higher standard which he would not have been able to play, as Ireland were not a test nation, by that reasoning, Roy Keane should never have left Cobh Ramblers

    That is not remotely comparable

    Even cricket has club/ county competition which allows them to represent their national team too

    Keane left Cobh , a club, for a bigger football club. He played for the national team at several age levels, when it suited him

    Morgan switched national team


  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    Not really, you play an enormous amount of games when taking cups into consideration and have to consistently perform week in and week out (against players from all over the world) to keep your place, and at a top club you will be replaced if you don't. Constant international scrutiny and pressure from fans, management and media. To do all of that 5 or 6 times is remarkable, and the wages and prize money reflect that.

    They get paid to suck up that pressure. They get paid handsomely . They basically get their arse’s wiped for them. They don’t have to worry about bills or work. Everything is laid out for them at training

    Unless they are into social media, those professionals don’t have to listen to one word or read one line of criticism from the rest of the world . Certainly not From the pie eating fan in the stands

    A GAA player has to go into his 9-5 job (or more) on Monday morning . (Not all of them are teachers or Gardai or soldiers - jobs that are lenient on getting time off ) . They have to listEn to the bar stool managers who barely made the club team ,mouthing off about what went wrong and how they’d do it . If they want to go for a sneaky pint or have a cigarette, there will always be one local bollox ringing up the manager of the county team complaining . The jealousy of some people is unreal against county players , especially from club players .

    Oh sure, Fergie was infamous for having spies in all the pubs in Manchester , but GAA lads don’t get paid ,yet are expected to be professional

    Multiple GAA men have to do 2-3 hour Return car journeys down from Dublin or other big cities to train for the county twice a week (Jobs or studying in Dublin)

    Even in Dublin, I recall 2001, Dublin went through the qualifiers and had a good run. Ray Cosgrove was their main sharp shooter. Kerry v Dublin Replay was one of the big two games that season (played in Stemple Stadium of all places) Ray bursted into the county scene.

    A few weeks later The sport pages reported that Ray was left go from his job (electrician or some other construction related job ) because he couldn’t commit to doing over time hours due to his GAA commitments (as you know, building industry was booming )

    Now had he won an All Ireland , that would be some going. The Donegal lads in college Or work in Dublin and Galway Have a long trek every week . It just as bad for the smaller counties

    County teams have big turn over of players because players can’t commit due to work or studies - yet the fans expect those counties to still compete For All Ireland’s . Counties don’t receive any compensation for the lost of a player

    Professionals sports teams sell on players and can replace them with better players if they pay the money

    A county has just the same amount of pressure and scrutiny in their world as a Premier League team winning the EPL


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭teednab-el


    I would give it to Sonia. Competing at the top in a very competitive sport for over a decade. World champion a few times, Olympic medalist, Europeans you name it. We forget how good she actually was.

    She did fold on the big stage though. Atlanta 1996 a true reminder. She should have won gold in Sydney too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    teednab-el wrote: »
    She did fold on the big stage though. Atlanta 1996 a true reminder. She should have won gold in Sydney too.

    She was ill. It happens. Clean sports people aren’t machines . She didn’t walk out on her country over a needless row . She didn’t pick and chose when to turn up for events

    Olympics are not the be all and end all , way too emphasis is played on that in her sport. World championships also matter


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭teednab-el


    She was ill. It happens. Clean sports people aren’t machines . She didn’t walk out on her country over a needless row . She didn’t pick and chose when to turn up for events

    Olympics are not the be all and end all , way too emphasis is played on that in her sport. World championships also matter


    What happened in 2000 and 2004 Olympics to her? She was ill in 1996 fair enough but she didn't have to loose the rag with Tony Considine after she came last in the race. It sumed her up for me to be honest.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    The sad thing about this thread is not that it asks people to nominate their choice of greatest Irish sports person, but that it asks people to confirm that Roy Keane was Ireland's greatest sports person.
    Then it descended into a discussion about Ireland (Republic of Ireland) and Northern Ireland.

    It is a thread for Manchester United fans and for Republicans (or Nationalists or anti-British).

    It reminds me of the time I was working at the garden at the front of my house. A man called out to me, held out a leaflet, and said "You'll take it". I didn't want his leaflet. He again said "You'll take it". To get rid of him I took the leaflet (clean your gutters, powerwash your drive, tidy your garden), and later put it in the bin.


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