2019 The Year Of The Vegan?

Tar.Aldarion · 16-01-2019 9:26pm

I think the billboards aren't the best either, they just rile people up, there are better more effective things and less divisive things they could say imo. Only advantage is that I've heard people talking about them for a couple of years now. I think a lot of vegan people forget what it is like to not be vegan, and can't take people's mindset into account.

gozunda · 16-01-2019 9:28pm

Worztron wrote: »

Fast food products ? Not exactly a good base for a healthy diet imo

gozunda · 16-01-2019 9:41pm

Kyleigh Prehistoric Visor wrote: »

Like I could say "oh my god the wrongness of these posts, the inability in these posts to admit to having made a mistake", but it doesn't mean I'm saying those things about you? Cool!
Yeah veganism is definitely on the up, it seems pretty consistently. It's hit a sweet spot with a generation that is very interested in environmentalism, ethical consumerism and health, and thank goodness that time has come!
I'm vegetarian since 1989, closer to vegan these days and I'm in HEAVEN the last few years with all the nice things to eat, not having to worry about going out to eat with a group and not getting constantly preached at. One of the most common things you'd get "Sure what's the point, you're not making any difference". HA!
I'm honestly not sure about those vegan world billboards tbh, part of me thinks it's some black op thing by the meat industry. I have never seen a positive reaction to them by anyone who's not already a vegan, and I've seen so many negative ones. They're tone deaf altogether.

It's clearly stating that no one is willing to risk getting thread banned because someone or other wants to selectively quote or derail a specific topic. But no matter.

This generation of millennials or others are far from the first or only generation to have serious had thought or consideration for "environmentalism, ethical consumerism and health"

The environmental movement especially long predates the vagaries of the current vegan movement and imo it's hijacking by same. I was there first time around. Ditto health and ethical consumerism.

The unfortunate preaching re billboards etc which I'm seeing is coming primarily from a small number of extreme adherents . Much of it is in my experience misinformed or in your face and fails to promote veganism, but rather is out to attack. I think that is a big mistake tbh.

[Deleted User] · 17-01-2019 7:10pm

gozunda wrote: »

Fast food products ? Not exactly a good base for a healthy diet imo

For the fast food outlets, they're all about money, not health.

They know that no self respecting vegan will enter their shop and most vegetarians also unless dragged in by their drunken friends after a night out.

I think it's probably more aimed at carnivores like me (I don't frequent fast food outlets in the main) encouraging them to be "healthy" once in a while and getting in on the "vegan/vegy fad" - you can bet next months pay check that they've crunched their numbers and are making a ton of money out of the whole thing.

M&S is more about encouraging the vegan dollar into their stores - i.e. customers who wouldn't normally shop there- it's all about business and profit.

Worztron · 18-01-2019 3:09pm

gozunda wrote: »

Fast food products ? Not exactly a good base for a healthy diet imo

Clearly not but junk food every now and then is fine as a treat. You seemed to miss the point of that tweet.

gozunda · 18-01-2019 7:32pm

Worztron wrote: »

Clearly not but junk food every now and then is fine as a treat. You seemed to miss the point of that tweet.

I believe the text accompanying the list stated
"So tell me again how vegans won't make a difference?"

And I pointed out it was just a list of fast (junk) food. Ie how does that make a difference? - Fast food is fast food at the end of the day. The World Health Organisation advocates against eating same - detailing how eating such foods may lead to obesity and poor health.

I'd agree with the treat bit - but humans being humans will often eat this stuff way more than is healthy or recommended. Whether vegan or otherwise. Not something to be blowing about tbh.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 19-01-2019 1:46pm

Enough people being vegan led to large companies offering vegan options making it easier to be vegan possibly leading to more people being vegan leading to more vegan options and so on. The growing number of vegan customers and their expression of the gap in the market not being met has led to a volume of deliberately, specifically vegan options available that would have been total pie in the sky stuff ten years ago.

It's nothing to do with obesity or healthy eating.

gozunda · 20-01-2019 2:52am

So say the big fast food companies and multinationals. Aye.

Green&Red · 22-01-2019 1:59pm

First time poster here, I’ve a background in energy and farming, not a vegan but if have no problem with veganism, if that’s right word. I would however disagree on animal cruelty for example.

I see environmental issues being cited here as a reason for going vegan or maybe just as a coincidental side effect.

Emissions is probably the biggest issue facing the farming sector in Ireland. But replacing beef with a vegan substitute is surely just moving the environmental issue? Irish beef is transported from farm to fork, say max 200km, it’s carbon foot print is tiny. Comparing it to a vegan subsitute and there’s no comparison.

To me it’s akin to biomass burners in the energy sector. Great in theory where you can supply local biomass but in Ireland we’ve to import it from South America, on a ship. You’re not quite better off burning turf but you’re not far off it.

I suppose my point is the environmental effects have to be looked at in the round and not as isolated elements

davidjtaylor · 22-01-2019 4:04pm

Green&Red wrote: »

I see environmental issues being cited here as a reason for going vegan or maybe just as a coincidental side effect

It’s a very sound reason providing you make the right choices.

As a for instance, detractors routinely and tiresomely bring up destruction of the rainforests in order to plant soya as being a consequence of the spread of veganism, when the truth is American soy goes to feed cattle.

An environmental vegan, if she wants soya, should source European products, which often have the advantage of being organic too. It’s a case of educuating oneself.

So yes, buy Irish/Eu to help reduce emissions.

gozunda · 22-01-2019 8:13pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

It’s a very sound reason providing you make the right choices.

As a for instance, detractors routinely and tiresomely bring up destruction of the rainforests in order to plant soya as being a consequence of the spread of veganism, when the truth is American soy goes to feed cattle.

An environmental vegan, if she wants soya, should source European products, which often have the advantage of being organic too. It’s a case of educuating oneself.

So yes, buy Irish/Eu to help reduce emissions.

And that is a miss and not the 'truth' by a wide margin. The soya fed to livestock are the left overs of processing of soya beans for soya oil -
largely used in the manufacture of highly processed human foodstuffs.

If I had a euro for each time I've seen the same rubbish trotted out I'd be retired at this point. Soya oil and its by-product soya meal contaminate a huge range of foodstuffs of both vegan and regular diets. It is in bread, it is in processed foods, in sauces, in snacks, in chocolate, you name it - it's being used as an ubiquitous cheap and imo a nasty filler. And yes this use of soya it is implicated in the destruction of rainforests.

It is this type of misinformation which genuinely turns me off from ever considering veganism as a genuine effort to improve or help the environment.

Yes buy local, buy Irish whatever diet you choose, because every air mile added to the food we eat means that the greenhouse gases from fossil fuels and transport continue to increase and that is the truth.

jh79 · 22-01-2019 8:34pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

It’s a very sound reason providing you make the right choices.

As a for instance, detractors routinely and tiresomely bring up destruction of the rainforests in order to plant soya as being a consequence of the spread of veganism, when the truth is American soy goes to feed cattle.

An environmental vegan, if she wants soya, should source European products, which often have the advantage of being organic too. It’s a case of educuating oneself.

So yes, buy Irish/Eu to help reduce emissions.

Organic offers no health advantages and i would assume from an enviormental standpoint is a less efficient method of crop production.

If you are concerned about the enviorment you shouldn't go "organic".

davidjtaylor · 22-01-2019 9:26pm

jh79 wrote: »

Organic offers no health advantages and i would assume from an enviormental standpoint is a less efficient method of crop production.

If you are concerned about the enviorment you shouldn't go "organic".

jh79, you’re quite welcome to ingest human-made chemicals, be my guest.

I want the choice to not ingest them, as well as at the same time support local jobs and not some distant agro-pharma.

jh79 · 22-01-2019 9:38pm

davidjtaylor wrote: »

jh79, you’re quite welcome to ingest human-made chemicals, be my guest.

I want the choice to not ingest them, as well as at the same time support local jobs and not some distant agro-pharma.

Just pointing out the misconception that organic offers any benefits from a health perspective and you can still support local producers without going Organic.

davidjtaylor · 22-01-2019 9:48pm

This article and its comments seems balanced and critical:

https://www.pccfarmlandtrust.org/august-food-farms-in-the-news-2/

Tar.Aldarion · 23-01-2019 11:14am

gozunda wrote: »

And that is a miss and not the 'truth' by a wide margin. The soya fed to livestock are the left overs of processing of soya beans for soya oil -
largely used in the manufacture of highly processed human foodstuffs.

Source for it being leftovers? As if the meal just happens to be a byproduct that people use for livestock because there is nothing else to be done with it? All news I've seen before have said the opposite.

Mooooo · 23-01-2019 11:31am

This is based on UK figures. Much higher percentage of high yielding herds in the UK so less is used here. Ideal protein % for a cow is around 16% so grass has plenty protein for the cow, generally soy isn't required in Irish cow's diet while at grass.
https://sustainablefoodtrust.org/articles/dairy-cows-livestock-behind-growth-soya-south-america/
If you read the second paragraph under soy oil, they give their opinion.
Also calculations given further on on how in the UK anyway, how 1kg of whole soybean makes 7.5kgs of soybean milk, whereas for every kg of soybean meal fed to cow's a range of between 60 to 112 litres of cow's milk is produced.

Tar.Aldarion · 23-01-2019 1:09pm

Thank you for that link Mooooo, it backs up what I thought, that the financial interest is greater for the soy meal than that of oil, as it is the bulk of the soy. The thought of the oil being the primary concern made no sense to me as growing soy for oil makes no sense compared to alternatives, it is inefficient compared to other oils. For instance palm oil is grown for a few reasons, one of them is that it is incredibly high yield and also is better for the environment than other oil crops. It's so incredibly efficient that less than 10% of land used for oil is for palm oil, and it produces 35% of oil used worldwide.

Other oil crops requiring up to nine times as much land to produce the same volume of vegetable oil. To put that into a thought experiment, if humans used just palm oil over all other oils it would use less than 30% of current land used for oil crops, of course there are reasons that this is not so. The popular issue with palm comes with the land they are using, forests being cut down and so on, invasion of habitat. They'd take up a fraction of the land that is used for soy however, if oil was the main concern over animal feed. That is why there is now a push for responsible growth of palm oil over boycott.

SuperRabbit · 23-01-2019 7:11pm

A lot of palm oil products have*

*sustainably sourced

on them, is that the solution? Also so often palm oil is in products that don't need any oil added in the first place, like peanut butter, which has its own natural oil removed and replaced with palm oil

Rapeseed oil might be less efficient but I haven't heard that they are destroying rainforests to grow more plants for rapeseed? Are they?

davidjtaylor · 23-01-2019 7:52pm

SuperRabbit wrote: »

A lot of palm oil products have*

*sustainably sourced

on them, is that the solution? Also so often palm oil is in products that don't need any oil added in the first place, like peanut butter, which has its own natural oil removed and replaced with palm oil

Rapeseed oil might be less efficient but I haven't heard that they are destroying rainforests to grow more plants for rapeseed? Are they?

Indeed SuperRabbit you can buy, for instance, Suma organic peanut butter which is just peanuts, nothing else (unless you get the version with salt added, which IMO is unnecessary).

And organic rapeseed oil is produced in Ireland.

[Deleted User] · 24-01-2019 12:45am

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Thank you for that link Mooooo, it backs up what I thought, that the financial interest is greater for the soy meal than that of oil, as it is the bulk of the soy. The thought of the oil being the primary concern made no sense to me as growing soy for oil makes no sense compared to alternatives, it is inefficient compared to other oils. For instance palm oil is grown for a few reasons, one of them is that it is incredibly high yield and also is better for the environment than other oil crops. It's so incredibly efficient that less than 10% of land used for oil is for palm oil, and it produces 35% of oil used worldwide.

Other oil crops requiring up to nine times as much land to produce the same volume of vegetable oil. To put that into a thought experiment, if humans used just palm oil over all other oils it would use less than 30% of current land used for oil crops, of course there are reasons that this is not so. The popular issue with palm comes with the land they are using, forests being cut down and so on, invasion of habitat. They'd take up a fraction of the land that is used for soy however, if oil was the main concern over animal feed. That is why there is now a push for responsible growth of palm oil over boycott.

Tara.

Can I call you Tara? (TCN days )

:P
Seriously though, if you get caught up with statistics, and what-a-bout-ery, then we're here for the long haul and no-one will win, bar the multi-nationals. And that goes for everyone on this forum, who enters that debate. Or do you agree?

I'm not going into Palm Oil debates, or yield per acre debates, simply because (a) I'm not a farmer (who would know far much more that I would and much more importantly (b) the geographic location in the world for that debate- which makes all the difference.

I'm a simple Omnivore/Carnivore person but having more veggie days per week than most Omnivores- that's all.

But it would seem to me that a lot of the recent PR/Marketing vegan communications is based on processed food- no different to the approach of any other foodstuffs.

I recently produced a great veggie meal, for veggie guests, based essentially on root vegetables and nuts.

So, considering you've said in other posts on this forum, that you are probably, on balance, more in favour of talking up vegan, than talking down meat, how can veggies/vegans progress in a good way, without being subject to lies, damn lies, and statistics?

gozunda · 24-01-2019 2:23am

First of all trying to compare soy bean cultivation with that of palm as if they are interchagable, which they are not, makes absolutly no sense whatseover.

The principle production areas of these two crops are located in very different parts of the world.

Indonesia is the largest producer of palm oil, followed by Malaysia - accounting for 84% of the worlds palm production

America and South America account for approx 82 % of the worlds soya bean production

As the bulk two crops grow in different regions of the world and it's not a case 'ah sure - their stuff is better - fair play lads - sure we won't grow anything'. With arguments solely based on 'efficiency' why are any other oil or other crops ever grown anywhere? The answer lies primarily in a crops suitability to terrain, climate and topgraphy. Cultivation also presumes land and resource availability. The potential area to grow any one crop in any given area is therefore limited by many factors external of efficiency estimates.

And whatever it is - palm oil cultivation cannot be claimed to be 'better for the environment' where its cultivation necessitates the wholesale destruction of rainforest and indigenous flora and fauna and native tribes. This has been well documented to date and there are many excellent websites on this subject.

Both soya and palm cultivation are responsible for massive environmental destruction. Basing any environmental concerns solely on land area used without regard to full environment impact and analysis is not possible.

Tar.Aldarion wrote:

Source for it being leftovers? As if the meal just happens to be a byproduct that people use for livestock because there is nothing else to be done with it? All news I've seen before have said the opposite.

Soybeans are classed as an oilseed due to their high oil content.

Industry data shows that show that approx 85% of the world’s soya beans are processed, or "crushed," to produce soya bean oil and the crushed soya meal as a waste product or by-product of that process. See:

https://www.soymeal.org/composition/

https://www.soya.be/soybean-oil-production.php

http://www.oilseedandgrain.com/soy-facts

This single most valuable component of crushed soya beans - the oil, is primarily used for human consumption, although the proportion used for valuable biodiesel production is growing rapidly, especially in the U.S.

Soybean oil, extracted from the seeds of soybean, is one of the two most widely consumed cooking oil across the world. (The other is Palm oil)

See:
https://www.spendedge.com/blogs/top-ten-manufacturers-soybean-oil-market

That waste product of the oil extraction process ie what is left after the oil is extracted is soya meal ) Due to the volume produced and an absence of other demand from other industries it is used to make animal feed.

Of the 15% not used to make soya oil - approximately 6% is used directly as human food, mostly in Asia. Other uses such as additives and derivatives for various industries account the remaining 9%."

The fact are that within the soya bean industry - Soya oil remains the most valuable product of soya bean processing on a weight per weight basis and this is clearly shown according to industry data.

Currently the price for Soya oil on the world market is 640.66 US Dollars per Metric Ton

The price of soya meal is 345.02 US Dollars per Metric Ton

To make the same return approximately twice the amount of soya meal needs to be sold compared to soya oil.

See:
https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=soybean-oil

https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/?commodity=soybean-meal

Note: The price of soya meal has also increased significantly over the last 30 years.

[Deleted User] · 24-01-2019 2:33am

gozunda wrote: »

F.

I'm sure your argument is wonderful, but in reality, it means, diddly squat to me. How will it affect my planet tomorrow morning?

gozunda · 24-01-2019 2:40am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I'm sure your argument is wonderful, but in reality, it means, diddly squat to me. How will it affect my planet tomorrow morning?

Simple facts. It won't.

Tar.Aldarion · 24-01-2019 2:54am

Good question plentyohtoole, I'll have a think about it.

gozunda wrote: »

Currently the price for Soya oil on the world market is 640.66 US Dollars per Metric Ton

The price of soya meal is 345.02 US Dollars per Metric Ton

Won't get into the first part, as pretending that both are ony grown in those parts of the world or can't be grown in others is nonsense. Simple facts about the original point, "By financial value, soy meal exceeds that of soy oil. Only 11-18% (depending on variety etc.) of processed soy beans by weight is oil." You know that, why be disingenuous and quote weights when the weights are far from equal? It's not even close, per soy bean the meal is worth multiple times that of the oil.

gozunda · 24-01-2019 3:25am

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

...

Simple facts, "By financial value, soy meal exceeds that of soy oil. Only 11-18% (depending on variety etc.) of processed soy beans by weight is oil." You know that, why be disingenuous and quote weights when the weights are far from equal?

Who is being disingenuous about what exactly? As detailed by the industry figures and as I previously stated the primary product of soya bean processing is soya oil and it is the oil which is the most valuable component of processed soya bean on a weight per weight basis. The other interesting fact about why soya oil is produced despite the wonders of palm oil is because palm oil on the world market is currently selling for significantly less than Soya oil - at 535.50 U.S. dollars per metric ton for palm compared to 640.66 US Dollars per Metric Ton for Soya oil - funny that.

Btw most modern commercial varieties of soya bean contain approx 20 % oil and another 10 % hull or seed coat

The largest growing market for soybeans, meal and oil is China

It remains many food processes such as milling of wheat, corn etc. result in large amounts of waste or by products which are utilised in other processes The fact that the waste or by products of these crops are then diverted to other industries does not change the primary uses or value of these crops. It constitutes a bonus which industries utilise for their own benefit and profit..

If you wish to climb down a rabbit hole by attempting to claim that the by-products value makes that somehow irrelevant be my guest.

Edit:
The facts are the bulk of palm and soya bean are grown in different parts of the world.

Dakotabigone · 24-01-2019 3:28am

I’d love to try being a vegan but my work is too physically demanding. I’d be falling asleep with tiredness and weakness by 10am.

loveisdivine · 24-01-2019 5:46pm

Dakotabigone wrote: »

I’d love to try being a vegan but my work is too physically demanding. I’d be falling asleep with tiredness and weakness by 10am.

Have you actually tried it?

My husband and I are both distance runners. Husbands training for an Ultra marathon at the minute. Neither of us are tired or weak. Both the fittest and healthiest we've ever been.

jh79 · 24-01-2019 6:08pm

loveisdivine wrote: »

Have you actually tried it?

My husband and I are both distance runners. Husbands training for an Ultra marathon at the minute. Neither of us are tired or weak. Both the fittest and healthiest we've ever been.

I think that was a joke , Danny Healy Rae said something to that effect in the Dail recently.

Tilikum17 · 24-01-2019 9:01pm

You know you’re in trouble when those morons are on your side.

2019 The Year Of The Vegan?

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