Obesity crisis in Ireland Mod Note post 1

[Deleted User] · 11-02-2019 8:10am

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Here's a thought I had regarding obesity...

Is it possible that our species could evolve and adapt to being a larger creature over time?

Blue whales are enormous creatures, averaging about 30,000 stone when mature, and yet they can often out-live us humans... (assuming we don't hunt them or destroy their habitat).

On land, the average elephant weighs about 800+ stone... and they can match the average human lifespan in the western world.

Perhaps with an abundance of food and calories available, it could be inevitable that most of our species will get bigger? There is definitely evidence that we are getting taller as a species, and it appears to be happening quite rapidly in relative terms...

Just putting this out there as a thought experiment...

Okay move along now... back to your bickering and finger wagging!! :P

Is it my imagination or are young lads getting taller?

I notice my generation (early 30s) are taller than my older brothers' generation (40s) but 18-20 year old today are taller than either of us.

Statistically, I mean. One of my brothers is 6'3 and is easily the tallest in his circle of friends, but I see an awful lot of young lads in college who would be around that height.

silverharp · 11-02-2019 10:15am

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Here's a thought I had regarding obesity...

Is it possible that our species could evolve and adapt to being a larger creature over time?

Blue whales are enormous creatures, averaging about 30,000 stone when mature, and yet they can often out-live us humans... (assuming we don't hunt them or destroy their habitat).

On land, the average elephant weighs about 800+ stone... and they can match the average human lifespan in the western world.

Perhaps with an abundance of food and calories available, it could be inevitable that most of our species will get bigger? There is definitely evidence that we are getting taller as a species, and it appears to be happening quite rapidly in relative terms...

Just putting this out there as a thought experiment...

Okay move along now... back to your bickering and finger wagging!! :P

the problem is a lot of bad health follows obesity , diabetes, heart disease , pregnancy issues, it is certainly not the onwards and upwards sort of evolution.

[Deleted User] · 11-02-2019 10:18am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Is it my imagination or are young lads getting taller?

Nope, it's happening. Their protein intake is much higher than that of preceding generations. To them, meat is "just another food" whereas to earlier generations it didn't need to be said that meat was the limiting factor in any meal ie. the item you couldn't just have more of if you wanted more. Kids nowadays get hot chicken for their school lunch as a staple whereas previous groups of kids got ham sandwiches and a bag of (low protein) chips on a Friday. Then when modern kids go home their weight-conscious parents know not to give them big plates of pasta or oven chips, instead giving them meals with more meat. Even kids who live off stuff like oven pizzas and mooju milk get more protein than you would think - previously an oven pizza would have been split between a few kids giving them a small bit of protein but norms have changed so that a young lad would expect to have the whole thing to themselves nowadays. Smaller family sizes and lower meat prices in real terms also remove pressure on the supply side of things. The result is they reach their genetic potential or close to it. I have also read before that "softer" living conditions (eg. warm houses, adequate comfortable rest) contribute to make kids taller.

_Brian · 11-02-2019 10:27am

Trump Is Right wrote: »

Here's a thought I had regarding obesity...

Is it possible that our species could evolve and adapt to being a larger creature over time?

Blue whales are enormous creatures, averaging about 30,000 stone when mature, and yet they can often out-live us humans... (assuming we don't hunt them or destroy their habitat).

On land, the average elephant weighs about 800+ stone... and they can match the average human lifespan in the western world.

Perhaps with an abundance of food and calories available, it could be inevitable that most of our species will get bigger? There is definitely evidence that we are getting taller as a species, and it appears to be happening quite rapidly in relative terms...

Just putting this out there as a thought experiment...

Okay move along now... back to your bickering and finger wagging!! :P

Thing is though there is a difference between bigger and fatter

Bigger overall, taller with larger skeletal frames etc is happening, look back at people from 100 years ago and were giants in comparison with massively longer lifespans. Good nutrition and healthcare has facilitated this.

Now, look at obease people, they are just carrying massive wileights of excess stored food as fats, that level of fat composition limits life and health, it invades the organs, the weight wears down joints, higher cancer rates diabetes etc and associated health deteriorations.
Obeasity isn’t evolution, it’s self destruction with poorer lifestyles and shorter life expectancy associated.

Wibbs · 11-02-2019 11:10am

_Brian wrote: »

look back at people from 100 years ago and were giants in comparison with massively longer lifespans.

Not this again. No, we do not have "massively longer lifespans" compared to a century ago. Through medical science we've added around a decade to our lives, so people who would have made it to 70 a hundred years ago now are much more likely to see 80 and 80 year olds are more likely to see 90. Even two thousand years ago the average life span was considered to be three score and ten, four score if you were lucky. What has changed and shifted the figures is an enormous reduction in childhood mortality, rather than any "massive" increase in longevity in adults.

Now, look at obease people, they are just carrying massive wileights of excess stored food as fats, that level of fat composition limits life and health, it invades the organs, the weight wears down joints, higher cancer rates diabetes etc and associated health deteriorations.
Obeasity isn’t evolution, it’s self destruction with poorer lifestyles and shorter life expectancy associated.

And yet a shed load of research has shown that being somewhat overweight is a positive factor for longevity.

Oh and I have no skin in this game on the weight front being thin myself.

silverharp · 11-02-2019 11:19am

Wibbs wrote: »

Not this again. No, we do not have "massively longer lifespans" compared to a century ago. Through medical science we've added around a decade to our lives, so people who would have made it to 70 a hundred years ago now are much more likely to see 80 and 80 year olds are more likely to see 90. Even two thousand years ago the average life span was considered to be three score and ten, four score if you were lucky. What has changed and shifted the figures is an enormous reduction in childhood mortality, rather than any "massive" increase in longevity in adults.

its funny how those stats are often misused, its funny how those stats are often misused, Ive lost count of the number of occasions where I might bring a point that we should eat like our ancestors to clear modern metabolic diseases , only to get some kind of retort about short lives as if everyone just keeled over in their 30’s

for contrast of where "we" have come in a hundred years even

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aohXOpKtns0

wakka12 · 11-02-2019 11:38am

A Tyrant Named Miltiades! wrote: »

Is it my imagination or are young lads getting taller?

I notice my generation (early 30s) are taller than my older brothers' generation (40s) but 18-20 year old today are taller than either of us.

Statistically, I mean. One of my brothers is 6'3 and is easily the tallest in his circle of friends, but I see an awful lot of young lads in college who would be around that height.

Yeh theyre really tall. Im 22 and 5'10' and while I dont feel like I stand out as being small I definitely feel within the lower range of 'normal' height

The Pheasant2 · 11-02-2019 12:17pm

https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/stage/people-think-when-i-talk-about-fatness-that-i-m-trying-to-get-everyone-fat-1.3785539

A worthy cause people should be throwing their full weight behind :rolleyes:

Bigbagofcans · 11-02-2019 12:26pm

wakka12 wrote: »

Yeh theyre really tall. Im 22 and 5'10' and while I dont feel like I stand out as being small I definitely feel within the lower range of 'normal' height

The average height for an Irish male is 5'10.

The Pheasant2 · 11-02-2019 12:49pm

silverharp wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aohXOpKtns0

Aside from the obvious differences in thinness, what I've always found most striking about this video is how excellent everyone's posture is - a byproduct of not being hunched in an office chair all day you'd presume?

topper75 · 11-02-2019 1:15pm

That NY 100 years ago video puts paid to a lot of the nonsense on here about genes and DNA.
You can't have a mass metamorphosis of people within a few generations genetically. Not even Fukishima can do that.
Yes there maybe a range genetically with metabolisms, but today's people eat more food and move way less.

silverharp · 11-02-2019 1:19pm

The Pheasant2 wrote: »

Aside from the obvious differences in thinness, what I've always found most striking about this video is how excellent everyone's posture is - a byproduct of not being hunched in an office chair all day you'd presume?

Interesting point, im guessing people were more conscious about how they carried themselves, there might have been more etiquette about it?

The Pheasant2 · 11-02-2019 1:51pm

silverharp wrote: »

Interesting point, im guessing people were more conscious about how they carried themselves, there might have been more etiquette about it?

Yep I could certainly see that being part of it alright!

coffee_cake · 11-02-2019 3:14pm

silverharp wrote: »

Interesting point, im guessing people were more conscious about how they carried themselves, there might have been more etiquette about it?

Plenty of walking around with a book on your head for posture i'd say

harry Bailey esq · 11-02-2019 7:53pm

As a child I occasionally used to by 5 spots off a guy from Cabra whos nickname was 'drugs'. Long before mobile phones, this guy would climb up a tree and sit there from 6-8 every evening, and when a customer approached he'd jump down, do the transaction and then scurry back up into the tree!

silverharp · 11-02-2019 8:44pm

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

As a child I occasionally used to by 5 spots off a guy from Cabra whos nickname was 'drugs'. Long before mobile phones, this guy would climb up a tree and sit there from 6-8 every evening, and when a customer approached he'd jump down, do the transaction and then scurry back up into the tree!

whats the angle? he's fat now, so gets stuck in the tree?

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 11-02-2019 9:08pm

topper75 wrote: »

That NY 100 years ago video puts paid to a lot of the nonsense on here about genes and DNA.
You can't have a mass metamorphosis of people within a few generations genetically. Not even Fukishima can do that.
Yes there maybe a range genetically with metabolisms, but today's people eat more food and move way less.

Not really, since the argument is that our current food environment is much more obesogenic. Think of the strides made in food science in that century? Making food cheaper, more abundant and more palatable. I can easily imagine that of those people you see in these old clips, some would be more likely to gain weight than others. But there was less food in general, The environment wasn’t obesogenic. I don’t see how these old clips disprove any of that.

Not to mention what we are finding out about epigenetics.

Ardillaun · 11-02-2019 11:50pm

topper75 wrote: »

That NY 100 years ago video puts paid to a lot of the nonsense on here about genes and DNA.
You can't have a mass metamorphosis of people within a few generations genetically. Not even Fukishima can do that.
Yes there maybe a range genetically with metabolisms, but today's people eat more food and move way less.

Obesity is a problem of both genes and environment.

Imagine if the obesity epidemic was caused by a virus that had never been in Ireland before. That would be an environmental agent but it would affect people differently depending on the way their immune systems were genetically organized. This actually happened to native people in North America with flu, smallpox, tuberculosis and other infectious diseases brought by European invaders. The majority were wiped out but a resistant minority remained. Similarly, an abundance of cheap, calorie-dense food represents a new challenge for humans (beyond the aristocracy); most of them pack on the extra pounds while a few are genetically resistant and remain thin. On top of their problems with our infections, native North Americans are even less able than we are to cope with this new diet and have a terrible problem with obesity and Type II diabetes.

wakka12 · 12-02-2019 1:15am

Ardillaun wrote: »

Obesity is a problem of both genes and environment.

Imagine if the obesity epidemic was caused by a virus that had never been in Ireland before. That would be an environmental agent but it would affect people differently depending on the way their immune systems were genetically organized. This actually happened to native people in North America with flu, smallpox, tuberculosis and other infectious diseases brought by European invaders. The majority were wiped out but a resistant minority remained. Similarly, an abundance of cheap, calorie-dense food represents a new challenge for humans (beyond the aristocracy); most of them pack on the extra pounds while a few are genetically resistant and remain thin. On top of their problems with our infections, native North Americans are even less able than we are to cope with this new diet and have a terrible problem with obesity and Type II diabetes.

The amount of food resources consumed by North Americans is also more than most places, serving sizes are also considerably larger, I think that is more the reason than genes

Ardillaun · 12-02-2019 1:34am

wakka12 wrote: »

The amount of food resources consumed by North Americans is also more than most places, serving sizes are also considerably larger, I think that is more the reason than genes

Things are farther along in North America but Ireland has the same problem; more people than ever are unable to maintain a healthy weight in the current dietary environment.

Dakotabigone · 12-02-2019 1:48am

harry Bailey esq wrote: »

As a child I occasionally used to by 5 spots off a guy from Cabra whos nickname was 'drugs'. Long before mobile phones, this guy would climb up a tree and sit there from 6-8 every evening, and when a customer approached he'd jump down, do the transaction and then scurry back up into the tree!

Baked beans and chipotle sauce himself.

Ardillaun · 12-02-2019 1:52am

On the issue of extreme exercise, there’s a distinction to be made between being fit and being healthy. They often go together but not always. Two friends of mine in their fifties were mad keen cyclists with big miles every weekend. One dropped dead and the other had bypass surgery.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 12-02-2019 10:18am

Bigbagofcans wrote: »

The average height for an Irish male is 5'10.

But that’s across age groups. Wakka said he’s 22 and he might well be a “shorty” in that demographic.

Ardillaun · 12-02-2019 2:26pm

Average height has increased but probably less than we might think. I don’t think the Dutch are much over 6 feet and they’re the tallest in the world.

[Deleted User] · 12-02-2019 2:34pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Average height has increased but probably less than we might think........

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/average-height-of-irish-men-is-8cm-more-than-100-years-ago-1.1513940?mode=amp

3 inches in 100 years according to that, for Ireland.

topper75 · 13-02-2019 4:13pm

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts wrote: »

Not really, since the argument is that our current food environment is much more obesogenic. Think of the strides made in food science in that century? Making food cheaper, more abundant and more palatable. I can easily imagine that of those people you see in these old clips, some would be more likely to gain weight than others. But there was less food in general, The environment wasn’t obesogenic. I don’t see how these old clips disprove any of that.

Not to mention what we are finding out about epigenetics.

But I live in the same environment as the overweight people today.
Again - disproved. Must be something else.

topper75 · 13-02-2019 4:17pm

Ardillaun wrote: »

Obesity is a problem of both genes and environment.

Imagine if the obesity epidemic was caused by a virus that had never been in Ireland before. That would be an environmental agent but it would affect people differently depending on the way their immune systems were genetically organized. This actually happened to native people in North America with flu, smallpox, tuberculosis and other infectious diseases brought by European invaders. The majority were wiped out but a resistant minority remained. Similarly, an abundance of cheap, calorie-dense food represents a new challenge for humans (beyond the aristocracy); most of them pack on the extra pounds while a few are genetically resistant and remain thin. On top of their problems with our infections, native North Americans are even less able than we are to cope with this new diet and have a terrible problem with obesity and Type II diabetes.

Again - there are native Americans today who are NOT fat. Same genes - different outcome.
Theory breaks down right away.

igCorcaigh · 13-02-2019 4:30pm

'Ultra-processed' products now half of all UK family food purchases

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2018/feb/02/ultra-processed-products-now-half-of-all-uk-family-food-purchases

That's UK, we can't be far behind. That's an amazing figure. Isn't it very suggestive, the huge rise in junk food consumption along with the rise in obesity levels.

And junk food is not just takeaway dinners, it's mostly in the supermarket trolley.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts · 13-02-2019 4:48pm

topper75 wrote: »

But I live in the same environment as the overweight people today.
Again - disproved. Must be something else.

Have you been long-term obese in your life?

You haven’t really read the thread fully, have you?

Ardillaun · 14-02-2019 4:14am

topper75 wrote: »

Again - there are native Americans today who are NOT fat. Same genes - different outcome.
Theory breaks down right away.

Every population studied contains some individuals who are more resistant to gaining weight in an obesogenic environment.

Like obesity, thinness has a large genetic component:

"This research shows for the first time that healthy thin people are generally thin because they have a lower burden of genes that increase a person's chances of being overweight and not because they are morally superior, as some people like to suggest," says Professor Farooqi. "It's easy to rush to judgement and criticise people for their weight, but the science shows that things are far more complex. We have far less control over our weight than we might wish to think."

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190124141538.htm

Obesity crisis in Ireland Mod Note post 1

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