Mens Rights Thread

Woodward · 14-06-2012 6:21pm #1

Ok I'm pretty new here but I havent been able to find a thread on this topic

Are any of you here involved in the Mens Rights or Masculinist Movements? Is there any organised male orientated rights associations in Ireland except for Fathers Rights?

iptba · 15-06-2012 1:44am

Woodward wrote: »

Ok I'm pretty new here but I havent been able to find a thread on this topic

Are any of you here involved in the Mens Rights or Masculinist Movements? Is there any organised male orientated rights associations in Ireland except for Fathers Rights?

I'm interested in the issue. But not aware of any groups .

PucaMama · 15-06-2012 1:51am

Woodward wrote: »

Ok I'm pretty new here but I havent been able to find a thread on this topic

Are any of you here involved in the Mens Rights or Masculinist Movements? Is there any organised male orientated rights associations in Ireland except for Fathers Rights?

the anti-women kind?

Woodward · 15-06-2012 1:59am

PucaMama wrote: »

the anti-women kind?

No, the mens liberation kind. I dont know of any that are anti women although there are many people who are anti radical feminism. Masculinism is about freeing men from gender stereotypes and the pressure to 'man up' and suppress their emotions and act 'manly'

PucaMama · 15-06-2012 2:07am

Woodward wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

the anti-women kind?

No, the mens liberation kind. I dont know of any that are anti women although there are many people who are anti radical feminism. Masculinism is about freeing men from gender stereotypes and the pressure to 'man up' and suppress their emotions and act 'manly'

Oh I see I dont think ive heard of them but u never know they are more than likely around somewhere

General Relativity · 15-06-2012 10:18am

PucaMama wrote: »

the anti-women kind?

No. The kind that wan't equal rights for men around the areas of childcare, paternity leave, insurance, etc.

py2006 · 15-06-2012 12:13pm

I don't believe their is such an organisation. It would most likely be laughed at or ridiculed from certain other groups or suggestions made about its ethos like the poster above.

Woodward · 15-06-2012 12:45pm

py2006 wrote: »

I don't believe their is such an organisation. It would most likely be laughed at or ridiculed from certain other groups or suggestions made about its ethos like the poster above.

Do you think there would be enough interest to establish one? I know it is a pretty big movement on youtube and reddit but a lot of those activists are from the US where the problem is much, much worse. Some callers in on radio stations and talk shows have hinted at the issues the MRM deal with but I dont know if an Irish mens rights organization could get off the ground

py2006 · 15-06-2012 1:29pm

I think those that would be interested in such a group would be men who have fallen foul to the legal system in relation to divorce and children etc. Which from reading boards over the years would seem to be quite a lot.

Aside from that, it would be difficult to get a lot of men involved because men 'just don't care' strongly enough about those things. I'd like to think I am wrong on this.

Piliger · 15-06-2012 4:59pm

Woodward wrote: »

Do you think there would be enough interest to establish one? I know it is a pretty big movement on youtube and reddit but a lot of those activists are from the US where the problem is much, much worse. Some callers in on radio stations and talk shows have hinted at the issues the MRM deal with but I dont know if an Irish mens rights organization could get off the ground

It's an excellent idea but unfortunately Men have become incredibly passive in recent decades, as they have been pounded by the women's movements. The result is that they don't stand up for themselves until they themselves are screwed.

The whole divorce court setup, the fathers rights, paternity leave and other issues are hurting thousands and thousands of guys every year but at the moment it's not seen as cool to fight back.

It will take a few guys with balls enough to persevere to get this kind of group off the ground I fear.

Piste · 16-06-2012 1:40am

I would completely support a men's right's movement. I'd think it sad that it would have to be seperate from the Irish Feminist Network or any women's right movement. It'd be nice to have an all-encompassing Gender Egalitarianism movement that discussed, lobbied for and raised awareness of gender issues affecting both men and women.

Woodward · 16-06-2012 10:11am

Piste wrote: »

I would completely support a men's right's movement. I'd think it sad that it would have to be seperate from the Irish Feminist Network or any women's right movement. It'd be nice to have an all-encompassing Gender Egalitarianism movement that discussed, lobbied for and raised awareness of gender issues affecting both men and women.

Ideally that would be the case but the gender feminists are too deeply engrained in the whole feminist movement to allow that to happen. Their obsession with patriarchy and post modernist thinking means the are by and large opposed to the mens rights movement and do not cooperate, at least in my experience

Piliger · 16-06-2012 5:53pm

Piste wrote: »

I would completely support a men's right's movement. I'd think it sad that it would have to be seperate from the Irish Feminist Network or any women's right movement. It'd be nice to have an all-encompassing Gender Egalitarianism movement that discussed, lobbied for and raised awareness of gender issues affecting both men and women.

Sadly that is a pipe dream. Most of the agenda of IFN and other similar organisations is to marginalise and demonise men and our rights.

Tym · 16-06-2012 6:11pm

I know it is a pretty big movement on youtube and reddit but a lot of those activists are from the US where the problem is much, much worse.

Hmmm some would say America is rather patriarchal?

Piste · 16-06-2012 7:01pm

Woodward wrote: »

Ideally that would be the case but the gender feminists are too deeply engrained in the whole feminist movement to allow that to happen. Their obsession with patriarchy and post modernist thinking means the are by and large opposed to the mens rights movement and do not cooperate, at least in my experience

To be honest I haven't found a lot of feminists to be against men's rights per se, just ignorant of the areas in which men are at a disadvantage compared to women. I'd imagine were it more well known how men are disadvantaged when it comes to family law then there would be more women on their side. Of course there will be those who see male disadvantage as the price men have to pay for male privilege and there will always be a "you made your bed so lie in it" mentality.

utyh2ikcq9z76b · 16-06-2012 7:05pm

Here's some info for you guys:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculism

Don't think many can object to the issues that arise from being a man

py2006 · 18-06-2012 1:39pm

Piste wrote: »

Of course there will be those who see male disadvantage as the price men have to pay for male privilege and there will always be a "you made your bed so lie in it" mentality.

I am not sure I follow you here. Can you elaborate?

Tym · 18-06-2012 1:45pm

I am not sure I follow you here. Can you elaborate?

Eh, I kind of agree that there would be that mentality. Some poeple would argue that one of the reasons why women get more rights when it comes to children is because they were potrayed as the natural nurterer of the family when Ireland was a patriarchal society, and men were seen as breadwinners (which kept women out of a lot of jobs, especially when they had children), so some people would believe the lie in your own bed mentality.

py2006 · 18-06-2012 1:48pm

Tym wrote: »

Eh, I kind of agree that there would be that mentality. Some poeple would argue that one of the reasons why women get more rights when it comes to children is because they were potrayed as the natural nurterer of the family when Ireland was a patriarchal society, and men were seen as breadwinners (which kept women out of a lot of jobs, especially when they had children), so some people would believe the lie in your own bed mentality.

Oh right, I get you now. The word privilege threw me off a bit.

Yea, it was more acceptable when those laws were made that the genders and specific roles.

Obviously, its high tide that these laws are amended. Unfortunately, you don't hear much of a rallying call for it though.

Iwannahurl · 18-06-2012 3:12pm

Piliger wrote: »

Sadly that is a pipe dream. Most of the agenda of IFN and other similar organisations is to marginalise and demonise men and our rights.

Is that true?

Any examples you can link to?

http://www.irishfeministnetwork.org/mission-statement.html

PucaMama · 18-06-2012 4:58pm

Piste wrote: »

Woodward wrote: »

Ideally that would be the case but the gender feminists are too deeplwy engrained in the whole feminist movement to allow that to happen. Their obsession with patriarchy and post modernist thinking means the are by and large opposed to the mens rights movement and do not cooperate, at least in my experience

To be honest I haven't found a lot of feminists to be against men's rights per se, just ignorant of the areas in which men are at a disadvantage compared to women. I'd imagine were it more well known how men are disadvantaged when it comes to family law then there would be more women on their side. Of course there will be those who see male disadvantage as the price men have to pay for male privilege and there will always be a "you made your bed so lie in it" mentality.

aside from family law, how are men disadvantaged in ireland? And who do they say are to blame?

iptba · 18-06-2012 5:04pm

PucaMama wrote: »

aside from family law, how are men disadvantaged in ireland?

Prison conditions is one.

And some feminists propose that women should be treated even more differently.
From a Seanad debate:
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0189/S.0189.200805200002.html

Senator Ivana Bacik:
This week, we are fortunate to receive a visit from Baroness Jean Corston from the British House of L[817]ords who produced a very radical report last year on women in prison and who recommended, after a very thorough review, that prison places for women should essentially be abolished and that there should just be a small number of small detention units for women. Otherwise, alternative sanctions should be used. We could very much learn from the lessons of that report.

I am happy to say that Baroness Corston will be visiting Leinster House on Thursday. Deputy Mary O’Rourke and I are hosting a meeting with her for all women Members of the Oireachtas. I am sorry that we cannot invite any male colleagues interested in this issue to the briefing with Baroness Corston.

Senator David Norris: Why not?

Senator Ivana Bacik: I would be happy to meet them to discuss the issues at another time.
The Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice will also host a seminar on Thursday evening on the future of women’s imprisonment. This is an issue which we could very usefully debate in this House and could lead the way in calling for a critical review of women’s imprisonment, as Baroness Corston has done in Great Britain.

And family law covers a big area.

PucaMama · 18-06-2012 5:10pm

iptba wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

aside from family law, how are men disadvantaged in ireland?

Prison conditions is one.

And family law covers a big area.

Well prison would be the last on my list. They are not in there just for being males.

The usual gripe with family law is women being left with the children as far as I no.

Anything else?

PucaMama · 18-06-2012 5:15pm

iptba wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

aside from family law, how are men disadvantaged in ireland?

Prison conditions is one.

And some feminists propose that women should be treated even more differently.
From a Seanad debate:
http://historical-debates.oireachtas.ie/S/0189/S.0189.200805200002.html

Senator Ivana Bacik:
This week, we are fortunate to receive a visit from Baroness Jean Corston from the British House of L[817]ords who produced a very radical report last year on women in prison and who recommended, after a very thorough review, that prison places for women should essentially be abolished and that there should just be a small number of small detention units for women. Otherwise, alternative sanctions should be used. We could very much learn from the lessons of that report.

I am happy to say that Baroness Corston will be visiting Leinster House on Thursday. Deputy Mary O’Rourke and I are hosting a meeting with her for all women Members of the Oireachtas. I am sorry that we cannot invite any male colleagues interested in this issue to the briefing with Baroness Corston.

Senator David Norris: Why not?

Senator Ivana Bacik: I would be happy to meet them to discuss the issues at another time.
The Jesuit Centre for Faith and Justice will also host a seminar on Thursday evening on the future of women’s imprisonment. This is an issue which we could very usefully debate in this House and could lead the way in calling for a critical review of women’s imprisonment, as Baroness Corston has done in Great Britain.

And family law covers a big area.

Im more interested in the rights of my law abiding brothers, uncles, father, friends etc than criminals

iptba · 18-06-2012 5:18pm

PucaMama wrote: »

Well prison would be the last on my list. They are not in there just for being males.

I don't mind so much what people want for the sentence - that can be a big debate and can be separated from the gender issue. I do have a problem with the fact that it appears that for the same crime, women may be more likely to get a suspended or lenient sentence (although the data may not be conclusive) and that, and this is more conclusive, the conditions faced during a sentence are different for men and women. And, as I pointed out when I edited the last post, there is a movement to increase the difference in treatment.

Just because you're not interested in criminals doesn't mean nobody else can or should be.

christmas2012 · 18-06-2012 5:19pm

i can understand womens rights not sure about mens dont they have more rights?

PucaMama · 18-06-2012 5:22pm

iptba wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

Well prison would be the last on my list. They are not in there just for being males.

I don't mind so much what people want for the sentence - that can be a big debate and can be separated from the gender issue. I do have a problem with the fact that it appears that for the same crime, women may be more likely to get a suspended or lenient sentence (although the data may not be conclusive) and that, and this is more conclusive, the conditions faced during a sentence are different for men and women. And, as I pointed out when I edited the last post, there is a movement to increase the difference in treatment.

Just because you're not interested in criminals doesn't mean nobody else can or should be.

I am aware conditions in mens prisons are bad. There is a lot of overcrowding as far as I no. Are womens prisons newer? With lower populations? Couldnt this have an affect on the diffrence in conditions.

iptba · 18-06-2012 5:27pm

PucaMama wrote: »

I am aware conditions in mens prisons are bad. There is a lot of overcrowding as far as I no. Are womens prisons newer? With lower populations? Couldnt this have an affect on the diffrence in conditions.

If women had to go to go to the toilet in buckets in shared cells, and sleep in that area overnight with the smell, etc. while men didn't, and this continued for decades, I think it would be highlighted as a gender equality issue.

I remember this happening in the 1990s in Mountjoy. What happened? They built a cosier prison complex for ... the women prisoners.

---
ETA: I believe the planned Thornton prison has/had different plans for male and female prisoners (e.g. I think single cells for female prisoners, but many or all shared for the male prisoners).

PucaMama · 18-06-2012 5:30pm

iptba wrote: »

PucaMama wrote: »

I am aware conditions in mens prisons are bad. There is a lot of overcrowding as far as I no. Are womens prisons newer? With lower populations? Couldnt this have an affect on the diffrence in conditions.

If women had to go to go to the toilet in buckets in shared cells, and sleep in that area overnight while men didn't, and this continued for decades, I think it would be highlighted as a gender equality issue.

I remember this happening in the 1990s in Mountjoy. What happened? They built a cosier prison complex for ... the women prisoners.

But is there no other issues that affect those in the general population?? Those of us who have not earned having to pee in a bucket. Something in every day life.

Monty Burnz · 18-06-2012 5:35pm

Piste wrote: »

Of course there will be those who see male disadvantage as the price men have to pay for male privilege and there will always be a "you made your bed so lie in it" mentality.

Same as there are people who blame current Jewish people for killing Jesus.

Monty Burnz · 18-06-2012 5:38pm

PucaMama wrote: »

Im more interested in the rights of my law abiding brothers, uncles, father, friends etc than criminals

So you would be concerned if a woman who assaulted/robbed/killed your law-abiding uncles/brothers etc. was not committed to prison?

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