How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017

Corruptedmorals · 08-01-2017 4:22pm

Nothing massively wrong with the 66 route, they could do with greater frequency in the evenings outbound and slightly more on Sundays/bank holidays.

The 66x is poor though. Starts too late in the mornings to be of use to those starting before 9 (67x starts earlier) and ends too early in the evening. The amount of people standing on them means you risk it sailing past the quays entirely because theyre overloaded. Likewise the first morning X can bypass Leixlip stops before it even gets to the village.

VG31 · 08-01-2017 4:26pm

bigredone wrote: »

You moan about how the center doors are use in other countries, well blame the NTA, in other countries the driver wont be held responsible for a accident at the center door, but in Ireland the driver is held responsible, all thats needed for 100% use of center doors in Dublin is for the NTA to step up and accept responsibility for accidents at the center door.

Is there any precedent behind this? Has a driver every been blamed for an accident at the centre doors? If such a case did go to court how could the driver be blamed for an accident at the centre doors but not the front doors? It is either drivers are responsible for both or neither.

I find most of the drivers who do use the centre doors aren't really bothered with lining up with the kerb properly. There isn't really that many occasions when it is unsafe to open the centre doors. The problem is drivers refusing the operate them at all. If drivers always opened the middle doors when it is safe to do so they would be opened at least 95% of the time.

I don't think there is any other city in the world where the buses have multiple doors and the exit doors are not opened.

trellheim · 08-01-2017 5:31pm

Cyclist-friendly - ha . make me chuckle. That is one thing it will definitely. not be

We really really do need a flat bus fare IMHO for a leap tag-on to reduce dwell.

VG31 · 08-01-2017 5:47pm

trellheim wrote: »

We really really do need a flat bus fare IMHO for a leap tag-on to reduce dwell.

It was madness that the Leap cards were introduced with driver interaction. It is no quicker than paying with cash and sometimes even slower.

To really speed up dwell times, there should be a €2 or €2.50 flat fare for Leap cards and no cash. Something also needs to be done to speed up the validators. Another validator should be added on the left side at the front doors and also have validators at the centre doors to allow multi-door entry/exit.

devnull · 08-01-2017 6:19pm

VG31 wrote: »

It was madness that the Leap cards were introduced with driver interaction. It is no quicker than paying with cash and sometimes even slower.

To really speed up dwell times, there should be a €2 or €2.50 flat fare for Leap cards and no cash. Something also needs to be done to speed up the validators. Another validator should be added on the left side at the front doors and also have validators at the centre doors to allow multi-door entry/exit.

I completely agree that it needs to happen, but the problem is it's not just as simple as saying that from x date we will do it and everything will be fine, there are lots of parties that will want assurances on lots of things before we can do that.

The idea that the NTA can do it at a moments notice and no conversations need to be had with the operators or the unions or the staff and everyone is perfectly okay with that is pretty fanciful, it's simply not going to work like that because of the reasons I posted earlier.

ED E · 08-01-2017 6:20pm

How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017?

1. Hire a German CEO and Management Team.
2. Make AGS Traffic and DCC keep the QBCs clear with funding penalties.

/Thread.

devnull · 08-01-2017 6:25pm

VG31 wrote: »

I find most of the drivers who do use the centre doors aren't really bothered with lining up with the kerb properly. There isn't really that many occasions when it is unsafe to open the centre doors. The problem is drivers refusing the operate them at all. If drivers always opened the middle doors when it is safe to do so they would be opened at least 95% of the time.

The argument I had with one driver involved him saying that it is not for me and you to tell him or her what is safe and what is not safe and it is at his or her discretion whether he or she opens the doors or not so the subject is not up for debate and he or she does not have to justify if he or she does or does not open his or her centre doors or not.

Therefore refusing to operate them at all stops is not the driver being awkward, in his or her view they are simply using their discretion which is what his union have told him he is entitled to do and what neither the company nor the NTA have decided to argue with.

That's the problem in a society where there is too much discretion and not enough rules.

VG31 · 08-01-2017 8:10pm

devnull wrote: »

I completely agree that it needs to happen, but the problem is it's not just as simple as saying that from x date we will do it and everything will be fine, there are lots of parties that will want assurances on lots of things before we can do that.

The idea that the NTA can do it at a moments notice and no conversations need to be had with the operators or the unions or the staff and everyone is perfectly okay with that is pretty fanciful, it's simply not going to work like that because of the reasons I posted earlier.

I entirely agree that the NTA should consult the management and staff but presumably the groups involved would not have major issues with these proposals. As it removes driver interaction, the drivers' workload is significantly reduced so surely the unions won't have an issue with this? Though knowing the unions they will find some problem with it.

ED E wrote: »

1. Hire a German CEO and Management Team.
2. Make AGS Traffic and DCC keep the QBCs clear with funding penalties.

/Thread.

That's the one step that would solve everything!

devnull wrote: »

The argument I had with one driver involved him saying that it is not for me and you to tell him or her what is safe and what is not safe and it is at his or her discretion whether he or she opens the doors or not so the subject is not up for debate and he or she does not have to justify if he or she does or does not open his or her centre doors or not.

Therefore refusing to operate them at all stops is not the driver being awkward, in his or her view they are simply using their discretion which is what his union have told him he is entitled to do and what neither the company nor the NTA have decided to argue with.

That's the problem in a society where there is too much discretion and not enough rules.

Well clearly some drivers have decided that it's never 'safe' to open the centre doors. There are some rare situations where it is unsafe to open the rear doors but otherwise there are no excuses.

It shouldn't be an option for the driver to decide to open the centre doors or not except maybe in very rare cases such as if there is only a small gap for the stop if for example two trucks were blocking the stop.

Another way to solve the problem is the system they have on buses in some cities such as Vienna where when the bus stops the driver presses a door release button and opens the front door themselves but all the other doors are opened by the passengers with buttons inside and outside the bus. The doors then close automatically and the driver closes the front door and presses the door release button again to release the door lock.

Commotion Ocean · 08-01-2017 8:23pm

33 bus service should bypass the OUTSKIRTS of Swords. It takes AGES to get through the blasted town. The R132 I think. It'll only be a 5 minute walk into the town but save 20+ minutes trying to drive through the traffic jam town.

Spanish Eyes · 08-01-2017 8:33pm

Regarding bus stop distances, for example, the stop on Bachelor's Walk that serves the 25A and others from that direction has nearly 900 metres from there to the next stop at Nassau Street. Well Google maps says so anyway.

Is this a record!

There used to be a stop in D'Olier Street, but that's gone now.

People get used to it.

Flat fare with no cash/driver interraction in desperately needed too.

weldoninhio · 08-01-2017 8:41pm

If all 33s route through the port tunnel, how does someone get from Balbriggan/Skerries/Rush/Lusk get to Swords??

devnull · 08-01-2017 9:42pm

VG31 wrote: »

I entirely agree that the NTA should consult the management and staff but presumably the groups involved would not have major issues with these proposals.

The major problem is the issue that it will have on revenue to Dublin Bus and the subsidy that it would require to run the service, this is why Dublin Bus has resisted some fare bands being merged in the last few years because they are worried about it's impact on the companies finances.

I think to be fair the issue with multi-door boarding and the fare system is not really a union or driver issue itself, it's much more an issue about funding and revenue between Dublin Bus and the NTA because of the fact that it could have a catastrophic impact on company finances and also the NTA is not simply going to offer a blank cheque over to cover any potential losses because then it risks turn into a black hole for money like the health service.

Well clearly some drivers have decided that it's never 'safe' to open the centre doors. There are some rare situations where it is unsafe to open the rear doors but otherwise there are no excuses.

It shouldn't be an option for the driver to decide to open the centre doors or not except maybe in very rare cases such as if there is only a small gap for the stop if for example two trucks were blocking the stop.

The drivers view was that it is not for anyone to tell any driver what is safe and what is not and that should be left to the particular driver, on the particular day, of the particular bus and not subject to any rules and as with any kind of discretion you cannot set any conditions as to what can be done. Therefore it can be argued that should conditions be set, or them to have options removed, the staff are no longer being allowed to use their discretion which they will complain is unfair.

Another way to solve the problem is the system they have on buses in some cities such as Vienna where when the bus stops the driver presses a door release button and opens the front door themselves but all the other doors are opened by the passengers with buttons inside and outside the bus. The doors then close automatically and the driver closes the front door and presses the door release button again to release the door lock.

Dublin Bus has doors that push outwards and a camera on the door at all times right now which is much more than most countries have, which basically removed the previous argument that people could get trapped in the door. The use of the door will be a further tool, but I still can't see the unions or the drivers agreeing to this, since they will argue passengers cannot see the kerb before opening the door and will walk out without looking therefore it's still an issue. Plus the drivers can simply just refuse to release the rear door.

VG31 · 08-01-2017 10:04pm

devnull wrote: »

The drivers view was that it is not for anyone to tell any driver what is safe and what is not and that should be left to the particular driver, on the particular day, of the particular bus and not subject to any rules and as with any kind of discretion you cannot set any conditions as to what can be done. Therefore it can be argued that should conditions be set, or them to have options removed, the staff are no longer being allowed to use their discretion which they will complain is unfair.

If rules are not brought in nothing will change. The drivers should just be given whatever reassurances they need and then centre door usage should be made compulsory.

devnull wrote: »

but I still can't see the unions or the drivers agreeing to this, since they will argue passengers cannot see the kerb before opening the door and will walk out without looking therefore it's still an issue. Plus the drivers can simply just refuse to release the rear door.

So Irish people cannot be trusted to open the doors themselves but Austrians and Germans can?

Most of the time the button releases the front doors as well so the driver has to press the button or they cannot open the front doors (the only other way is with the emergency handle above the door).

devnull · 08-01-2017 10:25pm

VG31 wrote: »

If rules are not brought in nothing will change. The drivers should just be given whatever reassurances they need and then centre door usage should be made compulsory.

I agree but that is my point, the drivers will not agree to rules being brought in because they were told at a labour court ruling in the past that they have the right to use their discretion when it is safe or not and to make that decision and the company cannot dictate to them when they can and cannot use the doors.

The only thing that will appease the drivers is if there is a blanket assurance that anyone who falls from the middle doors will not be the responsibility of the driver which is never going to happen because at the end of the day it basically allows a driver who is intentionally reckless or acting in a grossly unsafe manner a get out of jail free card and no company lawyer will authorize their client to sign such an agreement.

So Irish people cannot be trusted to open the doors themselves but Austrians and Germans can?

I'm not saying what you say is wrong, I'm just playing devils advocate and saying what argument the other side are going to put across in relation to this should they be asked it.

n97 mini · 08-01-2017 11:59pm

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

Nothing massively wrong with the 66 route, they could do with greater frequency in the evenings outbound and slightly more on Sundays/bank holidays.

The 66x is poor though. Starts too late in the mornings to be of use to those starting before 9 (67x starts earlier) and ends too early in the evening. The amount of people standing on them means you risk it sailing past the quays entirely because theyre overloaded. Likewise the first morning X can bypass Leixlip stops before it even gets to the village.

66 and 67 take too long as they take the scenic route. A lot of head scratching after the last review that the 25a/b were selected to run the N4 and bypass Chapelizod. Should have been the 66 or 67 or both.

66a finishes before 9 on Sundays and the rest of the time it departs (hourly) at the same time as the (hourly) train from Confey. They used to be 30 mins offset from each other, now they compete.

66b has no Sunday service despite servicing one of the biggest employers in the area (HP).

There is also no bus route between Celbridge and Leixlip. A simple solution would be to move the 66b terminus from HP back to St Wolstans in Celbridge where the (now defunct) 67a used to terminate.

thomasj · 09-01-2017 2:15am

n97 mini wrote:

There is also no bus route between Celbridge and Leixlip. A simple solution would be to move the 66b terminus from HP back to St Wolstans in Celbridge where the (now defunct) 67a used to terminate.

Personally I think, if they were to rethink about a 166 or a similar local route.

Something like hazelhatch>celbridge village>maynooth>leixlip>Lucan village>Liffey valley

BonnieSituation · 09-01-2017 3:20am

n97 mini wrote: »

66 and 67 take too long as they take the scenic route. A lot of head scratching after the last review that the 25a/b were selected to run the N4 and bypass Chapelizod. Should have been the 66 or 67 or both.

Stay away from my wonderful bypass!!!

All of them should run the N4 tbh. With perhaps a more frequent 26 running via Chapelizod

Sparks43 · 09-01-2017 3:51am

A quick point to the op

The 27a is effectavally running on an hourly timetable. So many times I have used the rtpi service to see when a bus is due and lo and behold it doesn't show up.

Memories of 2016 27a route

Driver leaving 10 mins early and saying fck them when questioned when asked why he is not waiting

Bus left in gear on transfer

2 hrs between buses on one Ireland soccer match night

Waiting 45 mins for a bus then getting told its out of service as some person puked upstairs. No replacement bus around and another hours wait.

Great 27a service and I for one look forward to regular 2 hr waits

sharper · 09-01-2017 9:35am

Corruptedmorals wrote: »

The 66x is poor though. Starts too late in the mornings to be of use to those starting before 9 (67x starts earlier) and ends too early in the evening. The amount of people standing on them means you risk it sailing past the quays entirely because theyre overloaded. Likewise the first morning X can bypass Leixlip stops before it even gets to the village.

The x also starts too late in the evening, the first ones get through the city centre around 5pm which doesn't really encourage or help people with flexible hours.

In my experience if you want to get an x from the city centre you can only count on the two that leave from Westmoreland street, the ones coming from Belfield are almost guaranteed to be full before getting there.

Someone also mentioned the length of the 66 route and other than being a pain to sit through it again also makes it hard to actually get one from the city centre because it's already full with people who are getting off at Chapelizoid and Palmerstown. People wanting to get to Maynooth or Celbridge are left standing in the city centre hoping the next one in half an hour might at least have somewhere to stand while half empty ones are continuing on from Liffey Valley.

bigredone · 09-01-2017 12:35pm

devnull wrote: »

The argument I had with one driver involved him saying that it is not for me and you to tell him or her what is safe and what is not safe and it is at his or her discretion whether he or she opens the doors or not so the subject is not up for debate and he or she does not have to justify if he or she does or does not open his or her centre doors or not.

Therefore refusing to operate them at all stops is not the driver being awkward, in his or her view they are simply using their discretion which is what his union have told him he is entitled to do and what neither the company nor the NTA have decided to argue with.

That's the problem in a society where there is too much discretion and not enough rules.

Arguing with a driver, telling them how to do their job, you are a real know all, who knows F all.
Another ignorant post, the official position of DB management is "it is up to the drivers discretion if it is safe to open the middle doors".

bigredone · 09-01-2017 12:44pm

VG31 wrote: »

Well clearly some drivers have decided that it's never 'safe' to open the centre doors. There are some rare situations where it is unsafe to open the rear doors but otherwise there are no excuses.

It shouldn't be an option for the driver to decide to open the centre doors or not except maybe in very rare cases such as if there is only a small gap for the stop if for example two trucks were blocking the stop.

Another way to solve the problem is the system they have on buses in some cities such as Vienna where when the bus stops the driver presses a door release button and opens the front door themselves but all the other doors are opened by the passengers with buttons inside and outside the bus. The doors then close automatically and the driver closes the front door and presses the door release button again to release the door lock.

Well there you go, this poster has it figured out somewhat, why no buttons for passengers to open center doors at stops, why not just have one button for the driver that opens both doors?
Why do you think this is so?
You have been told its because the driver is the legally responsible for a accident at the center doors, yet some here refuse to believe this.

bigredone · 09-01-2017 12:56pm

VG31 wrote: »

. The drivers should just be given whatever reassurances they need and then centre door usage should be made compulsory.

So Irish people cannot be trusted to open the doors themselves but Austrians and Germans can?

Most of the time the button releases the front doors as well so the driver has to press the button or they cannot open the front doors (the only other way is with the emergency handle above the door).

Is the picture becoming clear, make the legal fallout for a accident at the center door the same as the front doors.
Can anyone here come up with a reason the doors in europe open at every stop but not in dublin?
Legal responsibility falls on the driver in dublin.

bigredone · 09-01-2017 1:05pm

devnull wrote: »

The only thing that will appease the drivers is if there is a blanket assurance that anyone who falls from the middle doors will not be the responsibility of the driver which is never going to happen because at the end of the day it basically allows a driver who is intentionally reckless or acting in a grossly unsafe manner a get out of jail free card and no company lawyer will authorize their client to sign such an agreement.

More ignorance!!
What do you think is in place for the operation of the front doors?
Fall at front door driver not legally responsible, fall at centre door driver is legally responsible.

devnull · 09-01-2017 1:08pm

bigredone wrote: »

Arguing with a driver, telling them how to do their job, you are a real know all, who knows F all.

Your attitude on here does you no favours, as I said before I'm not going to get involved in schoolyard insults, try putting your point of view over a little more eloquently

Another ignorant post, the official position of DB management is "it is up to the drivers discretion if it is safe to open the middle doors".

Isn't that what I just said?

bigredone · 09-01-2017 1:31pm

devnull wrote: »

Your attitude on here does you no favours, as I said before I'm not going to get involved in schoolyard insults, try putting your point of view over a little more eloquently

You are a problem for all public transport workers, you come on here spouting pure ignorance and if no one is here to call you out on it the other readers here will think that is the truth.
You are pushing myths, lies and just opinion as if they are fact, you have blinkers on and cannot accept that someone who actually drives a bus for DB could possible know more about you on anything related to DB.
A driver who is in weekly discussion with the Unions, who of occasion has a chat with management, who attends courses in the training schools and is informed of the latest rules/regulations, that somehow you a Starbucks Barista are better informed that i am about the inner workings of DB.
I think you have delusions of grandeur when it come to the working of DB, probably safe to say the same about all other public transports goings on as well.

devnull · 09-01-2017 1:40pm

I'm not going to argue again but 5kpt tell you to check out Google journey planning which is based on real road data and traffic.

I will always believe a verifiable source over some person who says he is right because he says so and that is all there is to it.

Lets just agree to disagree.

trellheim · 09-01-2017 1:53pm

Fall at front door driver not legally responsible, fall at centre door driver is legally responsible.

Back that up with something , preferably an independent link please, it's only fair if you are accusing people of 'spouting pure ignorance'

monument · 09-01-2017 2:14pm

bigredone wrote: »

Arguing with a driver, telling them how to do their job, you are a real know all, who knows F all.
Another ignorant post, the official position of DB management is "it is up to the drivers discretion if it is safe to open the middle doors".

bigredone wrote: »

More ignorance!!
What do you think is in place for the operation of the front doors?
Fall at front door driver not legally responsible, fall at centre door driver is legally responsible.

Cool down a bit.

-- moderator

Polar101 · 09-01-2017 4:09pm

Some good points in the OP (although if the route changes were implemented as written, I would no longer be able to take the bus to work), particularly re: weekend services. Buses are too infrequent on Sundays, and starting them a bit earlier would definitely help. People do actually work weekends - for example if I go to work on a Saturday morning, the bus is always packed. On Sundays I have to take a taxi, since there is no service.

L1011 · 09-01-2017 6:03pm

Adding a few extras earlier/later is only a bare minimum. Core routes similar to the old weekday merged nitelinks should be 24/7. And I would be willing to pay the increased taxation to subsidise same.

Pickup/setdown only running on peak services to outer destinations where there is already a density of local services is also needed.

How to improve Dublin Bus Services in 2017

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