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Is The Property Market Unfair to First Time Buyers?

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Comments

  • #32
    Danzy
    Registered Users Posts: 13,215 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    DellyBelly wrote: »
    I would disagree with that. I know plenty of people in their early 30s who would have more than 100k in savings. Some of course is via inheritance but mostly though saving hard. A person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

    It's hard to know if this is trolling or just that you live in a very small bubble.

    No offense, just intriguing.

    The median household income in Dunlaoghaire Rathdown is 66k , one of the richer parts.

    The % of people on 80k to 100k is very small. 58k people, statewide in August 2018


  • #33
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    DellyBelly wrote: »
    person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

    The median salary in Dublin as of last year was between 35-40k, ie half the population earn less than that. 80k is not average or near average by any metric at all.


  • #34
    Taylor365
    Registered Users Posts: 2,994 ✭✭✭Taylor365


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.


    Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.
    You forget the average 29-34 year old graduated during a recession. Putting a big dent in earning power for a good 5 years.


  • #35
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Springy Turf wrote: »
    For those quoting statistics please quote your source (lots of posters). And advice for everyone else including myself - disregard any stats that are trotted out without a source.

    Fair enough. I said between 35k to 40k -

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/region/.

    (645.78×52 = 33,580.56)

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/great-divide-in-household-income-across-the-country-is-laid-bare-38239841.html

    "Dublin City had the highest earned income per person at €39,999"


  • #36
    Springy Turf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 173 ✭✭Springy Turf


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Fair enough. I said between 35k to 40k -

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/region/.

    (645.78×52 = 33,580.56)

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/great-divide-in-household-income-across-the-country-is-laid-bare-38239841.html

    "Dublin City had the highest earned income per person at €39,999"

    Thanks for referencing. I didn't mean to single you out (even though my post was below yours), there is a tonne of posts in this thread with completely unreferenced claims of facts and figures. A lot of them don't stand up to scrutiny.

    I'm not 100% clear on if that median is full time only or includes part time. It's good to see the distribution page, showing how the mean is a lot higher than the median because of the small number of very high earners.


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  • #37
    jill_valentine
    Registered Users Posts: 7,090 ✭✭✭jill_valentine


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The obvious question is then what was your choice regarding the car? Did you insure it for 7k?


    People convince themselves that they *need* things that just make their life more comfortable. 7k on car insurance probably equates to well over 10k a year running costs on a car. Spending that to be able to drive a few minutes down the road to work on your off days to eat free bread seems the height of madness to me

    It might have been worth waiting for my reply before Newstalking off into the distance there at the end - I didn't even buy the car, because the insurance would have been 7k. I had the luxury of being within range of public transport, so I could and have managed without one - though if I'd been back home in the country I wouldn't have had a choice (something I wish people remembered when casually suggesting people move out of expensive old Dublin, but that's another argument.)

    I have to say, this has been a fairly eye opening day about how much stock to put in some of the speculation here, where keen grasps on the modern economic landscape have the average wage at 80k and we could all be sitting on 100k savings if we just used prepay phones.


  • #38
    Donald Trump
    Registered Users Posts: 19,017 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    It might have been worth waiting for my reply before Newstalking off into the distance there at the end - I didn't even buy the car, because the insurance would have been 7k. I had the luxury of being within range of public transport, so I could and have managed without one - though if I'd been back home in the country I wouldn't have had a choice (something I wish people remembered when casually suggesting people move out of expensive old Dublin, but that's another argument.)

    I have to say, this has been a fairly eye opening day about how much stock to put in some of the speculation here, where keen grasps on the modern economic landscape have the average wage at 80k and we could all be sitting on 100k savings if we just used prepay phones.




    I observe that people tend to spend a sizeable amount on income on crap. If you think it's not realistic to save it then that is your opinion. I know that it is not impossible. A reasonable cross section of society in their 20's could save 200 quid a week. You wouldn't need to be on 80k a year to do so.

    If you went to college then you probably survived on very little until you were say 22. If you stretched out that living like a student for say 2 years while working on a fairly low paid job, you would still be easily able to save 200 a week. No?



    Not sure why you seem to think that prepay phones work out as cheaper than billpay btw.


  • #39
    smurgen
    Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    I observe that people tend to spend a sizeable amount on income on crap. If you think it's not realistic to save it then that is your opinion. I know that it is not impossible. A reasonable cross section of society in their 20's could save 200 quid a week. You wouldn't need to be on 80k a year to do so.

    If you went to college then you probably survived on very little until you were say 22. If you stretched out that living like a student for say 2 years while working on a fairly low paid job, you would still be easily able to save 200 a week. No?



    Not sure why you seem to think that prepay phones work out as cheaper than billpay btw.

    Because they absolutely do.


  • #40
    Bubbaclaus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,461 ✭✭✭Bubbaclaus


    smurgen wrote: »
    Because they absolutely do.

    How so? My bill is 9.99 per month and essentially gives me unlimited everything. What prepay options are cheaper?


  • #41
    Ursabear
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭Ursabear


    If you want to see how out of whack the idea that people on full time incomes are on such high salaries look back over the reactions and then further reporting at the time when Leo Varadker mentioned it. Remembering that the few high earners skew the average upwards .

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/election-2020-fact-check-is-the-average-income-really-47-000-1.4155272%3fmode=amp


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  • #42
    Interested Observer
    Registered Users Posts: 12,999 ✭✭✭✭Interested Observer


    jill_valentine wrote: »
    Fair enough. I said between 35k to 40k -

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/ep/p-eaads/earningsanalysisusingadministrativedatasources2018/region/.

    (645.78×52 = 33,580.56)

    https://www.independent.ie/business/personal-finance/latest-news/great-divide-in-household-income-across-the-country-is-laid-bare-38239841.html

    "Dublin City had the highest earned income per person at €39,999"
    The Dublin coastal town of Malahide had the highest average income of €78,631 of all 41 towns in the country with a population of 10,000 or over.

    Holy ****, 78k per person :eek: That is absolutely nuts.


  • #43
    Vieira82
    Closed Accounts Posts: 333 ✭✭Vieira82


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The obvious question is then what was your choice regarding the car? Did you insure it for 7k?


    People convince themselves that they *need* things that just make their life more comfortable. 7k on car insurance probably equates to well over 10k a year running costs on a car. Spending that to be able to drive a few minutes down the road to work on your off days to eat free bread seems the height of madness to me

    hey hey hey vouching in on this because it's really close to my heart...

    I needed a car for my business, you can't go around distributing goods without 4 wheels. Looked for 7 months for not only a car/van and insurance. First of all van was out of question got immediately denied by brokers and insurers. Went for a car and despite having a 1 year cover on my partners policy and a eu drivers license since 2003 I got quoted 4500€ for the car I wanted. This hapenned after literally walking down south mall in cork going to each insurance company and broker and being denied insurance. Finally a broker got me this quote with XS Direct, the only one insuring drivers in this cirucinstances and obviously making this amount of money on it.

    I was told by the broker "if you get a recent or new car that can go down substantially... well only chance now was trying to get a hire purchase agreement on a 2 year old car. Got that in the hopes the insurance would go down, it went down to 2700€ a year, it subsquently went down to 900€ last year and 800€ this year. I'm still paying the car of course, despite my business completely died with the pandemic, I got the payment break for 6 months but was told if I extended it now I would have that affect my credit rating as acording to them on the phone "the pandemic payment break is now over".

    So thankfully I'm on pup and i'm using it to pay for rent the car and saving for the car insurance next year... I'm looking actively for WFH jobs every day and trinyg to get my business online but it's not exactly easy when there's no cash flowing meaning no way to buy new goods when your suppliers are all scared of sending you stock without any idea if they'll be paid...

    So since I got the car I cannot help but feel completely ripped off by insurance companies, and I know perfectly well I'm not the worse off. But when you walk into every insurer in south mall, ring all of them and they tell to your face "we won't insure you" for months on end and then the only one available is at exhorbitant prices it really makes you mad. Specially because you know it's all down to them making millions out of regular people and using, conveniently, claims ro raise the price of insurance for everyone. i really hope the EU would put them all in check and make them payback the excess they charged to people. I can only dream of course...


  • #44
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    Stark wrote: »
    Sure you can buy a house for 350 iPhones.

    You can buy 2 houses for 350 iphones in some parts of the country


  • #45
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »
    More than capable of doubling 49 but thank you.

    The average wage, like the mean of any highly variable data set, is skewed much higher by the ultra high earners. The median would be a much more appropriate figure and it would be much closer to the average industrial but from what I can tell isn't available. The average industrial wage does not include part time workers which is exactly why I use it. It ignores the extremes at both ends of the distribution.

    If Jeff Bezo's walked into a bar the average person in the bar would be a billionaire etc.

    Well that will not happen in the Rep of Ireland in the next 5 weeks


  • #46
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    Yeah but your house today has a lot more in it than a house in the 80's. People moved into their houses in the 1980's and did up one room at a time over a few years.



    And what of the cost of servicing that mortgage?





    The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.


    Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

    Would they still be able to go out out or would they be restricted to just going out
    Would pre drinks be affordable and what about Prosecco with brunch
    Too many imponderables
    They would need to take a year out to find themselves


  • #47
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    Deleted User wrote: »
    People who still have their communion money maybe, not your average 30 year old.

    Difference in being able and being willing


  • #48
    brisan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,242 ✭✭✭brisan


    DellyBelly wrote: »
    I would disagree with that. I know plenty of people in their early 30s who would have more than 100k in savings. Some of course is via inheritance but mostly though saving hard. A person on 80k plus (which is average enough in Dublin) should be able to save this with a bit of disciplince

    Ha HA
    And I am on 80k plus but its no where near average


  • #49
    IAmTheReign
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭IAmTheReign


    Donald Trump wrote: »
    The average person should surely be able to save 100k by their 30th birthday should they not? With a bit of effort? No? A couple looking to buy a house at age 30 could have 150k saved between them? Unrealistic or not? Would be less than 200 quid a week to put away.


    Edit: Assuming they go to college and start work at 22.

    Do people on here actually believe that it's easy for someone to save 100k by the time they're 30?

    Median gross income in Ireland is only around 35k a year. According to PWCs income tax calculator that gives you about 560 a week net.

    Assuming you started saving at 22, in order to save 100k by the time they're 30 you actually need to save 240 euro a week, not 200. Say 250 a week for rent (assuming you don't mind living in a house share when you're 30), that would leave you a grand total of 70 quid a week for bills, food, transport costs and any discretionary spending. So yeah, if you graduated college at 22, walked into a job paying a median salary the minute you graduated, and lived like a hermit for 8 years you might just about save 100k. Good luck ever going on holiday, buying a car etc. though.

    Of course though the idea that the average person graduates college at 22 and walks into a well paying job is a fantasy. Only half of the 25-34 age group are college graduates and by definition half of the workers in the country are earning below the median salary with newer entrants into the labour force over-represented in lower income brackets.

    Me personally I graduated college in 2009, at the age of 23 with a STEM degree. I spent 6 months trying to find ANY job, without success before I gave up and decided to go back and do a masters. I graduated from my masters in 2011 at the age of 25, about 20 grand in debt, and despite finishing top of my class it still took me 6 months to get a job. I got my first real job at 26, and it wasn't until I was 28 that I had payed off my college debt. And I was one of the lucky ones, most of my friends from school and college still aren't making decent money.

    EDIT: While overall median weekly wage is 560 a week, median wage for the 25-29 age group is actually only 470 according to the CSO. Totally realistic for the average person to save over half their income for 8 years in order to save for a house deposit.


  • #50
    Dwarf.Shortage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭Dwarf.Shortage


    IAmTheReign wrote: »
    Do people on here actually believe that it's easy for someone to save 100k by the time they're 30?

    Median gross income in Ireland is only around 35k a year. According to PWCs income tax calculator that gives you about 560 a week net.

    Assuming you started saving at 22, in order to save 100k by the time they're 30 you actually need to save 240 euro a week, not 200. Say 250 a week for rent (assuming you don't mind living in a house share when you're 30), that would leave you a grand total of 70 quid a week for bills, food, transport costs and any discretionary spending. So yeah, if you graduated college at 22, walked into a job paying a median salary the minute you graduated, and lived like a hermit for 8 years you might just about save 100k. Good luck ever going on holiday, buying a car etc. though.

    Of course though the idea that the average person graduates college at 22 and walks into a well paying job is a fantasy. Only half of the 25-34 age group are college graduates and by definition half of the workers in the country are earning below the median salary with newer entrants into the labour force over-represented in lower income brackets.

    Me personally I graduated college in 2009, at the age of 23 with a STEM degree. I spent 6 months trying to find ANY job, without success before I gave up and decided to go back and do a masters. I graduated from my masters in 2011 at the age of 25, about 20 grand in debt, and despite finishing top of my class it still took me 6 months to get a job. I got my first real job at 26, and it wasn't until I was 28 that I had payed off my college debt. And I was one of the lucky ones, most of my friends from school and college still aren't making decent money.

    EDIT: While overall median weekly wage is 560 a week, median wage for the 25-29 age group is actually only 470 according to the CSO. Totally realistic for the average person to save over half their income for 8 years in order to save for a house deposit.

    You can expect the details of this to be ignored by the posters in question who will inform you they in fact saved 117% of their income between 22-30 whilst getting out of bed before they got into it as they had to find time to work 4 jobs.

    The fact that house price were half the multiple of average earnings at the time will not be mentioned.


  • #51
    cnocbui
    Registered Users Posts: 19,651 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »
    You can expect the details of this to be ignored by the posters in question who will inform you they in fact saved 117% of their income between 22-30 whilst getting out of bed before they got into it as they had to find time to work 4 jobs.

    The fact that house price were half the multiple of average earnings at the time will not be mentioned.

    The asking price of houses outside Dublin is 64% lower than in Dublin. If I were a median or lower wage earner in Dublin and wanted to buy, rather than rent my entire life, I would be thinking about moving to somewhere where housing was cheaper.


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  • #52
    Dwarf.Shortage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭Dwarf.Shortage


    cnocbui wrote: »
    The asking price of houses outside Dublin is 64% lower than in Dublin. If I were a median or lower wage earner in Dublin and wanted to buy, rather than rent my entire life, I would be thinking about moving to somewhere where housing was cheaper.

    Yeah it's the only solution for a lot of people, it's not much good to people who absolutely have to be in Dublin for work but those people are more likely to be above average earners tbf.


  • #53
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-bedroom-apartments-summerseat-clonee-dublin-15/4355868

    That is a new apartment in Dublin for 205K.

    I am not saying it is for everybody.


  • #54
    Dwarf.Shortage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭Dwarf.Shortage


    mariaalice wrote: »
    https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/1-bedroom-apartments-summerseat-clonee-dublin-15/4355868

    That is a new apartment in Dublin for 205K.

    I am not saying it is for everybody.

    That's is a one bed apartment in Meath

    I don't mean that figuratively, click into the map view of the actual ad.


  • #55
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,326 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    IAmTheReign wrote: »
    Do people on here actually believe that it's easy for someone to save 100k by the time they're 30?

    Median gross income in Ireland is only around 35k a year. According to PWCs income tax calculator that gives you about 560 a week net.

    Assuming you started saving at 22, in order to save 100k by the time they're 30 you actually need to save 240 euro a week, not 200. Say 250 a week for rent (assuming you don't mind living in a house share when you're 30), that would leave you a grand total of 70 quid a week for bills, food, transport costs and any discretionary spending. So yeah, if you graduated college at 22, walked into a job paying a median salary the minute you graduated, and lived like a hermit for 8 years you might just about save 100k. Good luck ever going on holiday, buying a car etc. though.

    Of course though the idea that the average person graduates college at 22 and walks into a well paying job is a fantasy. Only half of the 25-34 age group are college graduates and by definition half of the workers in the country are earning below the median salary with newer entrants into the labour force over-represented in lower income brackets.

    Me personally I graduated college in 2009, at the age of 23 with a STEM degree. I spent 6 months trying to find ANY job, without success before I gave up and decided to go back and do a masters. I graduated from my masters in 2011 at the age of 25, about 20 grand in debt, and despite finishing top of my class it still took me 6 months to get a job. I got my first real job at 26, and it wasn't until I was 28 that I had payed off my college debt. And I was one of the lucky ones, most of my friends from school and college still aren't making decent money.

    EDIT: While overall median weekly wage is 560 a week, median wage for the 25-29 age group is actually only 470 according to the CSO. Totally realistic for the average person to save over half their income for 8 years in order to save for a house deposit.

    I often hear this argument about a single person trying to buy a house on the salary. When I was young it was typically expected that you'd be buying a home as a couple getting married with two salaries. Apart from the fact that any single person buying has to compete on price with double income couples, why is there an expectation that a single person has to buy and be alone? Are we entering an ERA where people plan to live their lives alone or end up as a couple with two properties?


  • #56
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »
    That's is a one bed apartment in Meath

    I don't mean that figuratively, click into the map view of the actual ad.

    The address is given as Dublin 15 plus you would have the help to buy scheme.


  • #57
    IAmTheReign
    Registered Users Posts: 339 ✭✭IAmTheReign


    cnocbui wrote: »
    The asking price of houses outside Dublin is 64% lower than in Dublin. If I were a median or lower wage earner in Dublin and wanted to buy, rather than rent my entire life, I would be thinking about moving to somewhere where housing was cheaper.

    It's not always that easy though. If you're talking about a couple that are both working it might not be that easy for both to find a job in a smaller town. There's very little decent public transport so you may need to get a second car, you may have been relying on grandparents to do childminding and would have to pay for a creche if you moved, etc.

    Plus it's far easier to find a new job in a bigger city than it is in a small town. I lived in Limerick and Sligo for a while, and I liked both well enough while I lived there but would never have considered moving there permanently. In both in the industry I am in there was limited opportunities to work and if you didn't like the place tough, there was nowhere else to go. And employers know that and pay you accordingly.


  • #58
    Dwarf.Shortage
    Registered Users Posts: 1,255 ✭✭✭Dwarf.Shortage


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The address is given as Dublin 15 plus you would have the help to buy scheme.

    The address is wrong, the apartment is in Meath. This is not subjective in any way.


  • #59
    jrosen
    Registered Users Posts: 1,629 ✭✭✭jrosen


    I dont think its unfair, I think buying your first home or indeed subsequent homes is challenging and difficult but something that we all generally get through.
    It takes determination and sacrifice which imo not everyone has.

    I also think people have to let go of the idea that they need to live in a certain area, or that they deserve too almost. You live where your pay check says you live. People need to be realistic


  • #60
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    Dwarf.Shortage wrote: »
    The address is wrong, the apartment is in Meath. This is not subjective in any way.

    Yes but it is still on the border of Dublin and somewhat affordable for a single applicant especially with help to buy.


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  • #61
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,356 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    https://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/new-priory-new-priory-hole-in-the-wall-road-clongriffin-dublin-13/4300831

    Another new one-bed apartment for 205K and it's definitely in Dublin.


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