CC3 -- Why I believe that a third option is needed for climate change

Wanderer78 · 21-09-2020 8:29am

paleoperson wrote:

ah yes the failed researcher track - very common these days. You get to talk big about how you're so important and leech taxpayers money for as long as conceivably possible with all the student grants and funding these days, never ending up with any job other than lowly minimum wage labwork given out of pity.

Hahaha, people are nuts on the Internets!

There's nothing important about me, no leeching here, I've worked hard for my education, and still do, but I'm truly grateful for the people of ireland for supporting me through all of my education, and the millions of others that have availed of this critical service. it truly has transformed our country, helped us in advancing, and becoming such a more wealthier and prosperous nation. I'm sure many older generations can remember ireland, while growing up, it wasn't exactly amazing, with many being forced to leave our educational system in both primary and secondary levels, early, so the family could survive. Opening up our educational system to most citizens, via subsidisation, has truly transformed all of our lives, so again, I say, thank you to all citizens

Wanderer78 · 21-09-2020 10:29am

an interesting video....

https://twitter.com/i/status/1307634368391806981

Gaoth Laidir · 21-09-2020 1:13pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

an interesting video....

Not sure what's so scary about that at all. Thermokarsts have been well documented for decades and are common in tundra regions, including Siberia. Nothing new there.

Wanderer78 · 21-09-2020 1:15pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Not sure what's so scary about that at all. Thermokarsts have been well documented for decades and are common in tundra regions, including Siberia. Nothing new there.

fair enough, no offence, but i ll stick with my own 'propaganda'

Akrasia · 25-09-2020 7:50am

A new study in Science attributes extreme heat events in our oceans to Climate change. Events that have a natural frequency of 1 in a century to once in a thousand years are now occurring once every 10 years. These extreme events are responsible for disrupting food chains and have been the cause of mass mortalities of apex species in recent years and are likely to become annual events if we allow climate change to reach 3c above pre-industrial levels

Marine heatwaves (MHWs)—periods of extremely high ocean temperatures in specific regions—have occurred in all of Earth’s ocean basins over the past two decades, with severe negative impacts on marine organisms and ecosystems. However, for most individual MHWs, it is unclear to what extent they have been altered by human-induced climate change. We show that the occurrence probabilities of the duration, intensity, and cumulative intensity of most documented, large, and impactful MHWs have increased more than 20-fold as a result of anthropogenic climate change. MHWs that occurred only once every hundreds to thousands of years in the preindustrial climate are projected to become decadal to centennial events under 1.5°C warming conditions and annual to decadal events under 3°C warming conditions.

https://science.sciencemag.org/content/369/6511/1621

Gaoth Laidir · 25-09-2020 9:17am

I see that the Irish kids with the American accents will be striking again today. They seem to have lost some attention during the pandemic so now it's time to get themselves back in the spotlight. Two were on the radio this morning, talking about how we missed our "twenny twenny" emission targets (intonation rising at the end of the sentence, just like a proper American). One has chosen not to go to school as she believes the schools should not be open. She "might" go back next month. Said she has asthma but is still ok to stand outside protesting...

A great future ahead, we have.

Oneiric 3 · 25-09-2020 11:36am

"Inspired by the adults around you who crave the feeling of having a noble cause while they indulge themselves in western luxury and unprecedented quality of life"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1RbgGB1Q3s

No one like the Aussies to not pussyfoot around the bush.

Danno · 25-09-2020 12:57pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

I see that the Irish kids with the American accents will be striking again today. They seem to have lost some attention during the pandemic so now it's time to get themselves back in the spotlight. Two were on the radio this morning, talking about how we missed our "twenny twenny" emission targets (intonation rising at the end of the sentence, just like a proper American). One has chosen not to go to school as she believes the schools should not be open. She "might" go back next month. Said she has asthma but is still ok to stand outside protesting...

A great future ahead, we have.

Reminds me of this great post over on the farming forum a while back and it perfectly sums these types up:

riemann wrote: »

Their answer to everything is increase taxes. This hits the poor much harder than others.

Their demographic is NIMBY middle class dogooders who spend most of their time parading around on their bicycles in Ranelagh to collect their daily supply of avacados in Fallon and Byrne (fresh from South America) , to try out a recepie they seen in a vegan cookbook picked up on one of their all two frequent "short weekend breaks" across Europe.

Preaching to the rest of us that we're destroying the world and should go back to a more sustainable way of farming which their non binary cis gendered son/daughter Lesley will happily explain to you as they spent a summer building mud huts with a tribe in Sudan and thus have it all figured out.

For what's its worth I would agree with a green agenda in so far as a philosophy of "first do no harm", but the reality is people want and expect cheap food. In a lot of cases it's not hard to understand why as many people are squeezed from all sides so will cut costs any way they can.

Going green is a rich person's pursuit in the current climate.

Akrasia · 25-09-2020 2:09pm

Sorry, I must be in the wrong place, I thought this was a science forum....

[Deleted User] · 25-09-2020 2:18pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Sorry, I must be in the wrong place, I thought this was a science forum....

You just need to remember that about 95%* of the climate change debate is non-scientific in nature, so it will creep in from time to time.

*I'm sure I can magic up some data to back that assertion if requested.

Akrasia · 25-09-2020 2:37pm

dolanbaker wrote: »

You just need to remember that about 95%* of the climate change debate is non-scientific in nature, so it will creep in from time to time.

*I'm sure I can magic up some data to back that assertion if requested.

Maybe 95% by volume, but not by merit or value.

‘Poisoning the well‘ is a fallacy. ‘This idea cannot be valid because this untrustworthy person proclaimed it”

There is an awful lot of this going on here while actual scientific arguments and evidence tends to be ignored or dismissed

Gaoth Laidir · 25-09-2020 3:53pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Maybe 95% by volume, but not by merit or value.

‘Poisoning the well‘ is a fallacy. ‘This idea cannot be valid because this untrustworthy person proclaimed it”

There is an awful lot of this going on here while actual scientific arguments and evidence tends to be ignored or dismissed

Akrasia · 25-09-2020 6:00pm

Gaoth Laidir wrote: »

Poisoning the well is where you take something irrelevant to the argument and use it to discredit the arguments themselves

I've always given peer reviewed scientific papers their due respect if they are published in reputable journals, and If I challenge a scientific paper, it is with reference to other scientific data that has contradictory findings

If contrarian opinions are not backed up by published science in good quality journals, then it's just personal opinion and can be disregarded as such (and this goes for so called climate extremists as well as those who try to downplay the risks of climate change)

What you're doing is mocking the 'american' accents from some teenagers and using this to discredit the need to act on climate change

Did you look at the paper I posted from Science today?

Gaoth Laidir · 25-09-2020 7:29pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Poisoning the well is where you take something irrelevant to the argument and use it to discredit the arguments themselves

I've always given peer reviewed scientific papers their due respect if they are published in reputable journals, and If I challenge a scientific paper, it is with reference to other scientific data that has contradictory findings

If contrarian opinions are not backed up by published science in good quality journals, then it's just personal opinion and can be disregarded as such (and this goes for so called climate extremists as well as those who try to downplay the risks of climate change)

What you're doing is mocking the 'american' accents from some teenagers and using this to discredit the need to act on climate change

Did you look at the paper I posted from Science today?

I was referring to the bit about discrediting a piece based on who wrote/said it. You've done that yourself more than once in the past.

I'm mocking those kids as they are getting away with murder under the guise of the climate crisis. They're been clapped on the back by grown-ups for being so "mature", yet in reality they're just spoilt social wannabees looking for attention. One on this morning said it will be the end of humanity if we don't react NOW! I bet she couldn't tell one end of a graph from another if you showed her, but that's ok because she got her info from having her head stuck in her phone watching some other kid spouting the same hyperbole. Then again, it's not only the kids who spout this nonsense, just look here sometimes.

The American accent bit just confirmation that these kids spend more time on social media and probably no time reading a book or looking up facts for themselves. There seem to be very few of them with genuine local accents.

I haven't had a chance to read the paper yet but I will.

Nabber · 25-09-2020 11:58pm

dolanbaker wrote: »

You just need to remember that about 95%* of the climate change debate is non-scientific in nature, so it will creep in from time to time.

*I'm sure I can magic up some data to back that assertion if requested.

Some what disingenuous to folks on both sides of the argument.
As the discussions on corrective actions is typically the melting pot of denial and virtue signaling. The science maybe settled :P:P But in todays climate the path forward is a twisting winding scocio-economic journey where the settled science can only watch on :pac::pac:

Nothing is done to manage expectations. The general public think that meeting the targets set out in the Paris Agreement (PA) is all we need. There is complete neglect from MSM or alarmists to acknowledge that the PA is one tiny step. Even if we stopped all emissions today, based on the AGW theory the planets temps will still rise and potentially centuries will need to pass before temps return to 'normal'. 1000s of years till CO2 return to normal.

Given our ability to adapt and the unprecedent growth in technology year on year. It's better for us a species to work on reducing poverty and increasing access to education. Increase our collective brain power and figure out alternative energy sources or cheaper carbon stores.

Rather what we have is a settled science :cool:, that has been used to justify hundreds of billions globally invested into inefficient energy sources. To put it in perspective we'd need a wind farm the size of Spain to replace carbon emissions.
If we invested in Nuclear we'd be in a much better situation. Maybe that solution is too easy, it would damage the agenda :pac::pac:

See lack of nuclear investment

Gaoth Laidir · 26-09-2020 12:37am

Akrasia wrote: »

A new study in Science attributes extreme heat events in our oceans to Climate change. Events that have a natural frequency of 1 in a century to once in a thousand years are now occurring once every 10 years. These extreme events are responsible for disrupting food chains and have been the cause of mass mortalities of apex species in recent years and are likely to become annual events if we allow climate change to reach 3c above pre-industrial levels

That article is behind a paywall for me.

Wanderer78 · 26-09-2020 6:23am

Nabber wrote:

See lack of nuclear investment

I do actually agree with this, and I have believed for a very long time, I'm currently not fully convinced renewables can fill the gap of fossil fuels for our power needs, and we should be including nuclear development also, I'm hearing great things about thorium reactors, but as far as I'm aware, we donâ€™t actually have a functioning industrial reactor yet.

Danno · 26-09-2020 11:06am

Wanderer78 wrote: »

I do actually agree with this, and I have believed for a very long time, I'm currently not fully convinced renewables can fill the gap of fossil fuels for our power needs, and we should be including nuclear development also, I'm hearing great things about thorium reactors, but as far as I'm aware, we don’t actually have a functioning industrial reactor yet.

I can also agree with this, nuclear is the way Ireland should go - not only replacing traditional FF fired stations but also replacing the inefficient wind turbines also.

We have destroyed vast swathes of our countryside with one-off housing and mono-forests and it seems the powers that be want to bludgeon whats left and unspoilt with hideous looking turbine blades.

It's time to call halt to it all. Time for the watermelon movement and the realists to come together and demand nuclear becomes our clean energy source.

Oneiric 3 · 26-09-2020 12:58pm

From Danno's posted quote:

"For what's its worth I would agree with a green agenda in so far as a philosophy of "first do no harm", but the reality is people want and expect cheap food".

My response: A few days or even a couple of weeks without access to food will do these clinical, sterile neoliberalists the world of good. There is nothing like an empty belly to reset one's priorities in life.

Wanderer78 · 26-09-2020 1:45pm

Danno wrote: »

I can also agree with this, nuclear is the way Ireland should go - not only replacing traditional FF fired stations but also replacing the inefficient wind turbines also.

We have destroyed vast swathes of our countryside with one-off housing and mono-forests and it seems the powers that be want to bludgeon whats left and unspoilt with hideous looking turbine blades.

It's time to call halt to it all. Time for the watermelon movement and the realists to come together and demand nuclear becomes our clean energy source.

id somewhat disagree with your first statement, current generation turbines may have poor efficiency, but unless we have them, we wont be able to increase their efficiency, over time. i believe renewables are a critical component, of meeting our future power needs, but we currently need their existence, in order to work on all of their issues.

its important to realise why theres so much resistance to nuclear, we all know what happens when it fails, when it fails, it really really fails, but its also important to realise how many reactors, globally, have worked for many decades, with little or no problems whatsoever. i do believe this is a major failure in the political left, they aint seeing the wood from the trees at all on this one, and i suspect those left leaning commentators who believe in nuclear could be right, we ll probably find out when its too late.

our housing planning issues certainly are an issue, but enlarging our towns and cities, is also causing problems, particularly complex social problems. id have to somewhat disagree about the look of turbines, i kinna like the look of them, but i can understand your opinion, ive come across many of the same opinions regarding their look and existence, they probably need to go out to sea, but that probably wouldnt make them financially viable.

i wish you the best with trying to get nuclear over the line, as it currently looks impossible to do, and this isnt just an irish problem, reactors are slowly being shut down, globally

Danno · 26-09-2020 7:03pm

Wanderer78 wrote: »

our housing planning issues certainly are an issue, but enlarging our towns and cities, is also causing problems, particularly complex social problems.

I'd rather see most rural towns to be brought up to between 3,000 and 5,000 population than expanding the likes of Dublin further. Rural towns with a population around ~5000 would be enough of a pull for quality services to be delivered along with a large employer or two.

Wanderer78 · 26-09-2020 7:07pm

Danno wrote: »

I'd rather see most rural towns to be brought up to between 3,000 and 5,000 population than expanding the likes of Dublin further. Rural towns with a population around ~5000 would be enough of a pull for quality services to be delivered along with a large employer or two.

definitely merit to this thinking, theres too much concentration towards the bigger cities, its causing problems for everyone, including these bigger cities themselves

Akrasia · 26-09-2020 10:39pm

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

From Danno's posted quote:

"For what's its worth I would agree with a green agenda in so far as a philosophy of "first do no harm", but the reality is people want and expect cheap food".

My response: A few days or even a couple of weeks without access to food will do these clinical, sterile neoliberalists the world of good. There is nothing like an empty belly to reset one's priorities in life.

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make?

The people with the least food insecurity are the ones with the highest carbon footprint

Nobody worried about the next meal flies to New York for a shopping spree or throws away clothes that they’ve only worn once because they’re not fashionable anymore or any of the other wasteful consumerism that means the richest have the highest carbon footprint

Oneiric 3 · 26-09-2020 11:27pm

Danno · 26-09-2020 11:33pm

Akrasia wrote: »

I’m not sure what point you’re trying to make?

The people with the least food insecurity are the ones with the highest carbon footprint

Nobody worried about the next meal flies to New York for a shopping spree or throws away clothes that they’ve only worn once because they’re not fashionable anymore or any of the other wasteful consumerism that means the richest have the highest carbon footprint

The party and policies (Green Party, PBP, and other left wing in general) these types vote for will introduce taxes that hit the less well off the hardest.

Carbon taxes at €100 per tonne will not greatly affect someone earning €70k+ per annum. Someone on minimum wage that relies on a second hand car to travel to work will be crucified with additional costs. Don't say "they should drive an EV then" because the reality is the vast majority cannot afford an EV.

Oneiric 3 · 26-09-2020 11:34pm

Danno wrote: »

I'd rather see most rural towns to be brought up to between 3,000 and 5,000 population than expanding the likes of Dublin further. Rural towns with a population around ~5000 would be enough of a pull for quality services to be delivered along with a large employer or two.

Could actually be another major township built soon:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/billionaire-to-visit-louth-in-bid-to-build-nextpolis-city-for-hong-kong-citizens-39497216.html

Gaoth Laidir · 26-09-2020 11:43pm

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Could actually be another major township built soon:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/billionaire-to-visit-louth-in-bid-to-build-nextpolis-city-for-hong-kong-citizens-39497216.html

See, I just couldn't bring myself to click the link when I saw it was the Independent, but in the end, against my better judgement, I did, and of course my original suspicions were validated. Looks like some sort of April Fools clickbait article. Published on September 2nd... I wonder is that April 1st in the Chinese calendar?

Danno · 26-09-2020 11:46pm

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Could actually be another major township built soon:

https://www.independent.ie/business/irish/billionaire-to-visit-louth-in-bid-to-build-nextpolis-city-for-hong-kong-citizens-39497216.html

Thats mad Ted. :eek:

Oneiric 3 · 26-09-2020 11:54pm

Danno wrote: »

Thats mad Ted. :eek:

Life is beginning to imitate art!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtYfHW5wu8Q

Classic.

Akrasia · 27-09-2020 12:57am

Oneiric 3 wrote: »

Science forum?

CC3 -- Why I believe that a third option is needed for climate change

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