Force a Referendum on the Property Tax

tomasocarthaigh · 20-03-2012 5:48am #1

Seeing as the governement are going to force deduction-at-source, why can we not as people force a referendum on the issue?

I propose the following to be campaigned for inclusion in the constitution -

"The family home, that is the primary residence of the family, shall be free from property taxes or rates"

Anyone with me?

MadsL · 20-03-2012 5:57am

As delusional a response as Grover Norquist's campaign for pledges for No New Taxes in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

Or more entertainingly...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-12-2012/grover-norquist

Watch and I think you will understand why absolute pledges or outright bans or restrictions on taxes are economically illiterate.

jank · 20-03-2012 10:09am

tomasocarthaigh wrote: »

Seeing as the governement are going to force deduction-at-source, why can we not as people force a referendum on the issue?

I propose the following to be campaigned for inclusion in the constitution -

"The family home, that is the primary residence of the family, shall be free from property taxes or rates"

Anyone with me?

Eh, no. How are we going to pay for services? Property taxes is a thing that is very common in the western world.

mikemac1 · 20-03-2012 10:20am

It's not new OP, these local rates existed before Jack Lynch abolished them

Though that was a right mess of a system with different valuations and waivers. It happens over time with complicated bureaucracies
Wasn't a very equal system, it could have been fixed but instead it was axed

BOHtox · 20-03-2012 10:41am

tomasocarthaigh wrote: »

Seeing as the governement are going to force deduction-at-source, why can we not as people force a referendum on the issue?

I propose the following to be campaigned for inclusion in the constitution -

"The family home, that is the primary residence of the family, shall be free from property taxes or rates"

Anyone with me?

Hard luck, mate!

Godge · 20-03-2012 10:45am

MadsL wrote: »

As delusional a response as Grover Norquist's campaign for pledges for No New Taxes in the US.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist

Or more entertainingly...

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-march-12-2012/grover-norquist

Watch and I think you will understand why absolute pledges or outright bans or restrictions on taxes are economically illiterate.

Well said, the opposition to this tax has been delusional from the first.

From the so-called socialists of the ULA and SF opposing it on ideological grounds which makes the mind boggle to the more mainstream chattering classes opposing it on cost grounds when other tax increases are going to hit them by more, the opposition to the tax have been living in some sort of alternate reality.

ednwireland · 20-03-2012 1:05pm

i actually object to the lack of billing, if these taxes are supporting local services i want to know what my local authority i sspending it on. we get this at budget time at a macro level for health social services etc.

if i'm paying a tax i want the council to tell me what they are spending it on (the only good thing about the council tax in the ulk you do get a breakdown - however arbitary)

anyway they've annoyed me so much i'll take th e10 euro hit at the end of march just to annoy the gov back so i'm now not paying, where i was going to before !

K-9 · 20-03-2012 1:11pm

ednwireland wrote: »

i actually object to the lack of billing, if these taxes are supporting local services i want to know what my local authority i sspending it on. we get this at budget time at a macro level for health social services etc.

if i'm paying a tax i want the council to tell me what they are spending it on (the only good thing about the council tax in the ulk you do get a breakdown - however arbitary)

anyway they've annoyed me so much i'll take th e10 euro hit at the end of march just to annoy the gov back so i'm now not paying, where i was going to before !

Councils do publish Accounts every year and the manager usually outlines the main points at Council meetings. Donegal has made big cuts to wages in the couple of years for example. If they intend bringing in a proper tax and not this haphazard one, its something they should be mandated to do, say sending out a small leaflet on the actual budget.

Godge · 20-03-2012 1:14pm

ednwireland wrote: »

i actually object to the lack of billing, if these taxes are supporting local services i want to know what my local authority i sspending it on. we get this at budget time at a macro level for health social services etc.

if i'm paying a tax i want the council to tell me what they are spending it on (the only good thing about the council tax in the ulk you do get a breakdown - however arbitary)

anyway they've annoyed me so much i'll take th e10 euro hit at the end of march just to annoy the gov back so i'm now not paying, where i was going to before !

I can only speak for my own local authority as I live in the area and keep up with their publications.
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/AboutFingal/OtherServices/Finance/AnnualBudget/Annual%20Budget%202012.pdf

read the link for their 76-page document on their 2012 budget which gives a huge amount of information on where they spend my money.

A lot of money is spent - €221m - but it is 11% down on last year.

Manach · 20-03-2012 1:17pm

Speaking as someone as delusion to think that Governments should have a minimum impact on peoples lives and this includes the massive government expenditure that is designed in part to ensure the re-election of the politicians proposing. The Govern. wish to pass a referendum ensuring a balanced budget, and yet they insist on raising tax revenue where there is no generation - ie the family house which exists not as an economic right but a fundamental human right - that of as a shelter and not as a means to create a socialised state.

GUIGuy · 20-03-2012 1:21pm

Services? What services... if you live in an estate/apt block that is managed by a private company (which the council refuses to take charge for) we already pay for:

Trash Collection
Public Liability Insurance
Road, Paving & Street furniture maintenance
Street Lighting

Water is going to be charged separately
There are call out charges for emergency services
We already pay road tax for public road maintenance

... so what local 'service' is this tax to pay for? This tax will keep lots of local bureaucrats in jobs no doubt. Its another make work scheme where the 'services' are in fact just the jobs created to administer the tax.

xflyer · 20-03-2012 1:21pm

The problem with this charge is that's a crude attempt by the government to raise some more money to hand over to the banks and the rest. It's also an attempt to build up a database of people liable for further taxes like water rates and the the new 'Rates'.

Let no one pretend that this is for local services. Rates were abolished years ago because they were a mess. So after that we paid higher income taxes to fund local services.

You're the one who is delusional if you think this tax is for local services to bring us into line other countries. It's stretching coincidence to the limit to think this is being introduced now but it's nothing to do with the problems we face.

We don't need a referendum, failing to pay this tax is a referendum in itself.

ednwireland · 20-03-2012 1:22pm

Godge wrote: »

I can only speak for my own local authority as I live in the area and keep up with their publications.
http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/AboutFingal/OtherServices/Finance/AnnualBudget/Annual%20Budget%202012.pdf

read the link for their 76-page document on their 2012 budget which gives a huge amount of information on where they spend my money.

A lot of money is spent - €221m - but it is 11% down on last year.

thanks for that but if its on donegal coco's website they sure dont make it easy to find - i looked through most of the relevant links and the search function doesnt work.

Godge · 20-03-2012 1:27pm

ednwireland wrote: »

thanks for that but if its on donegal coco's website they sure dont make it easy to find - i looked through most of the relevant links and the search function doesnt work.

Yeah, even though it was adopted in the end,

http://www.inishowennews.com/012DonegaBudget019.htm

it doesn't seem to have been published on the website. The 2011 budget is there fwiw.

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/council/publications/Budget2010.htm

schemingbohemia · 20-03-2012 1:32pm

ednwireland wrote: »

thanks for that but if its on donegal coco's website they sure dont make it easy to find - i looked through most of the relevant links and the search function doesnt work.

Not that difficult to find but not the most recent

http://www.donegalcoco.ie/council/publications/Budget2010.htm

Godge · 20-03-2012 1:33pm

GUIGuy wrote: »

Services? What services... if you live in an estate/apt block that is managed by a private company (which the council refuses to take charge for) we already pay for:
Trash Collection

Public Liability Insurance

Road, Paving & Street furniture maintenance

Street Lighting

Water is going to be charged separately
There are call out charges for emergency services
We already pay road tax for public road maintenance

... so what local 'service' is this tax to pay for? This tax will keep lots of local bureaucrats in jobs no doubt. Its another make work scheme where the 'services' are in fact just the jobs created to administer the tax.

xflyer wrote: »

The problem with this charge is that's a crude attempt by the government to raise some more money to hand over to the banks and the rest. It's also an attempt to build up a database of people liable for further taxes like water rates and the the new 'Rates'.

Let no one pretend that this is for local services. Rates were abolished years ago because they were a mess. So after that we paid higher income taxes to fund local services.

You're the one who is delusional if you think this tax is for local services to bring us into line other countries. It's stretching coincidence to the limit to think this is being introduced now but it's nothing to do with the problems we face.

We don't need a referendum, failing to pay this tax is a referendum in itself.

http://www.fingalcoco.ie/YourLocalCouncil/AboutFingal/OtherServices/Finance/AnnualBudget/Annual%20Budget%202012.pdf

Ok, where is the money going and what is it to be used for are the common complaints.

Well, the money is going to local authorities and is being used for local services. You can get the budget for 2012 (or at least 2011) from most local authority websites, there is more information in it that most people can handle.

At the moment (see Table 2 on page 13 of the Fingal budget) local authority income mainly comes from rates on local businesses. The other main source of income is the Local Government Fund - this is a payment made by the Central Government to local authorities. The Household Charge will replace this, saving the central government money and meaning they don't have to increase income tax. It may also replace the road grants and other grants categories, money which also comes from the centre.

The theory behind this is that people who have always funded local authorities through their taxation going into the Local Government Fund and haven't paid too much attention to what it was spent on will now wake up and pay more attention now that the money is going directly. Some of the more rational posts here already show that people are waking up to this fact (leaving aside the usual ranting about the banks).

djpbarry · 20-03-2012 2:09pm

xflyer wrote: »

The problem with this charge is that's a crude attempt by the government to raise some more money to hand over to the banks and the rest.

This has got absolutely nothing to do with "the banks". It's real simple - Ireland is spending way more than it can afford to on welfare and public sector salaries. Realistically, spending cuts alone are not going to plug the gap in spending, so the overall tax take has to be raised.

Sudsy86 · 20-03-2012 2:48pm

Spending Cuts First
Taxes second

Ppl now starting off in employment wll never be able to see the types of wages some ppl in this country are currently availing of(im talking public and private)...All we get these days is recession recession recession...

Its grand for ppl who are on this type of money to be happy to pay €100 but for those starting off on much much lower saleries its alot of money...

I have a god given right to own a house (before anyways says otherwise)...I pay enough tax as it is(even though some would argue we are below most EU states)...I may not pay more than 37-38% tax but the rest of my money goes to paying the elecy, gas, bins, food and so on so forth...This is not paid for me by my local council and will not be paid for me by yet another taxation on my house...

I'd give them an extra €100 a month if it went towards my local service needs as I would save alot more on bills if it did, but this is not the case...

I agree a referendum would be nice but it's not gonna happen...We voted for them...I hear alot of ppl blaming us(the ppl of ireland) for the mess as we voted for FF for all these years...We voted FG now and what has been done?...What Political party is gonna do any better?

It's time for the ppl to do what our representitives cannot...Iceland did it - why cant we?

later12 · 20-03-2012 3:39pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

I have a god given right to own a house

I don't remember that lesson from bible class. You cannot be serious?

As opposed as I am to the household charge, I think arguments like the above do the perfectly rational arguments against it no favours at all.

djpbarry · 20-03-2012 3:42pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

Spending Cuts First
Taxes second

What level of spending cuts are necessary before you’ll consider increased taxation?

Sudsy86 wrote: »

Ppl now starting off in employment wll never be able to see the types of wages some ppl in this country are currently availing of...

That’s not necessarily a bad thing – excessive labour costs make the country uncompetitive which is generally bad for everyone.

Sudsy86 wrote: »

I have a god given right to own a house...

Bollocks.

Sudsy86 wrote: »

I'd give them an extra €100 a month if it went towards my local service needs as I would save alot more on bills if it did, but this is not the case...

So where is it going then?

Sudsy86 wrote: »

It's time for the ppl to do what our representitives cannot...Iceland did it - why cant we?

What did Iceland do?

MadsL · 20-03-2012 3:43pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

I have a god given right to own a house

Nope. You have a basic human right to housing. But there is nothing in the Constitution or the Bible or the Book of Morman or the Qu'ran about your right to own a house. If you want the proof of this, then where is your free house?

Sudsy86 · 20-03-2012 3:46pm

later12 wrote: »

I don't remember that lesson from bible class. You cannot be serious?

As opposed as I am to the household charge, I think arguments like the above do the perfectly rational arguments against it no favours at all.

Ok ya sry, God given was wrong term to us...Damn my catholic upbringing!!!

Are you trying to say that every individual person has no right to owning their own home?

djpbarry · 20-03-2012 3:48pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

Are you trying to say that every individual person has no right to owning their own home?

That is correct.

Manach · 20-03-2012 3:49pm

The ECHR, whilst not God, does grant protection and respect as a mater of basic Human Rights to a person's home. Given the attitude and comments of Minister Hogan the latter quality is one that is lacking in this government.

later12 · 20-03-2012 3:50pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

Are you trying to say that every individual person has no right to owning their own home?

No, of course not. They have a right to own their own home if they can afford to pay for it.

But nobody has an absolute right to home ownership

K-9 · 20-03-2012 3:52pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

Ok ya sry, God given was wrong term to us...Damn my catholic upbringing!!!

Are you trying to say that every individual person has no right to owning their own home?

Why would they have a right to own it? We had that thinking during the bubble and it didn't get us too far.

Nobody has a right to own a home and there are measures the Government use to ensure everybody has a roof over their head, though sometimes imperfect, Rent Allowance and Council housing the two main ones.

Sudsy86 · 20-03-2012 3:56pm

djpbarry wrote: »

What level of spending cuts are necessary before you’ll consider increased taxation?
That’s not necessarily a bad thing – excessive labour costs make the country uncompetitive which is generally bad for everyone.
Bollocks.
So where is it going then?
What did Iceland do?

I'm sure you are not disagreeing that their are more spending custs required...Your question is very valid...A massive reduction of the public sector pay bill would be a nice start but I didn't now want to say as threads have a nice ability in going off topic when these are mentioned...

I may not have made my point about wages difference clearer...Cost of living in this country is the same for every person with or without a job...Now its is getting extremely more difficult to get pay increases as most employers play the recession card but this does not mean the cost of living is decreasing in tune with the reduction in wages...

Ya ok God given was the wrong choice of words but again we all curse in the name of god out of habit...

That is the point on the agenda, where are they going...I wish I could answer this...

Iceland's GDP from what I have read will recover alot faster than ours...For one the stood up to EU and burned their bondholders (this is not an excuse for not paying the tax, its an example of the ppl of iceland standing up for what they believe is right decision for them)

Statistician · 20-03-2012 3:56pm

djpbarry wrote: »

What level of spending cuts are necessary before you’ll consider increased taxation?

Reverse every decision made by Bertie Ahern.
This should bring us back to a sustainable level of spending.

jimmycrackcorm · 20-03-2012 3:57pm

djpbarry wrote: »

What level of spending cuts are necessary before you’ll consider increased taxation??

I'd go with cutting back to a small budget deficit so that we could tell the ecb no thanks we don't need to pay back any more money.

Sudsy86 · 20-03-2012 4:02pm

K-9 wrote: »

Why would they have a right to own it? We had that thinking during the bubble and it didn't get us too far.

Nobody has a right to own a home and there are measures the Government use to ensure everybody has a roof over their head, though sometimes imperfect, Rent Allowance and Council housing the two main ones.

As later12 corrected "The if they are willing to pay for it" is the part I mistakenly left out

Godge · 20-03-2012 4:41pm

Sudsy86 wrote: »

I have a god given right to own a house (before anyways says otherwise

Ah come on, are there still people spouting this rubbish four years into a mess partly created by the Irish people's stupid addiction to acquiring property at all costs?

Force a Referendum on the Property Tax

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