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Antisemitism rising sharply across Europe

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  • Posts: 0 Evie Ashy Mower


    Grayson wrote: »
    I'm always amazed at how stupid antisemitism is. Ok, all racial discrimination is really but it's just that after the holocaust, after all the myths were shown to be lies, there's still people who support this crap.

    There's still people so ineffably numb that the Holocaust is all abstract stuff. When I was standing in one of those really small cells underground in Auschwitz, about 8 metres from the cell in which some 600 USSR prisoners of war became the first to be gassed to death by Zyklon B (in September 1941, 4 months before the Wannsee Conference), and the guide tells you that this very room was filled with Jewish people after a hard day's slave labour and they all had to sleep and relieve themselves standing up. Nazi fun, it appears.

    That room was about 400 metres walk to the building where thousands upon thousands of toddlers' shoes were on display (next to tons of human hair and other human parts that were used in a lucrative soap and cosmetic industry of all things). When you actually think of all those humans who took those shoes off little children in the full knowledge that they were all going to be murdered it makes you question human nature like you never did before.

    I don't think any person can honestly say he or she understands the Holocaust. The magnitude of its evil is unfathomable. Hannah Arendt's 'banality of evil' carried out by enormous numbers of "normal" people. And that's the scary part we all need to be alert to in these populist times where many people are simply not learning about the Holocaust.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,993 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    markodaly wrote: »
    For some reason, all the ills of the world originated with the Rothschild.
    There is still a veneer of this Jewish anti-banker/anti-capitalist behind some of the left wing politics we see today.

    Given that Jews represent approx 0.2% of the world population (1 in 500), and yet they have won 20% of the Nobel prizes, wouldn't anybody think they must be sound?

    I'm no fan of financialisation, but why focus on Jewish bankers?


  • Posts: 0 Evie Ashy Mower


    I disagree, even just talking about it here and highlighting that it's still an issue helps stops a slow creep of normalisation of anti semitism and covert anti semitic tropes that are common online ( Soros as the the big bad jew, denial of Israel's right to exist framed as anti-zionism). If Labour had kept in mind how serious it is and why it needs to be dealt with they wouldn't be having such a huge scandal now (although their opponents would still be trying)

    This, completely. I'd also say that this is something we should be wary of when it comes to discourse about Muslims, especially online. The great horrors of world history invariably start with the dehumanisation of a group. It becomes normal to scapegoat and demean a section of society, and all sorts of things against them can be excused once their "lesser" status has been accepted. It is much harder to kill and abuse loads of people if you haven't dehumanised them first.

    It rarely happens overnight. It is, as you rightly say, a "slow creep of normalisation". The language we use always matters, even if some people get carried away into the superficiality of "political correctness".


  • Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭Count Down


    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,213 ✭✭✭friendlyfun


    Count Down wrote: »
    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.

    There isn't a good reason they were persecuted. It's largely for religious reasons. They were myths spread they jews sacrificed babies in ritual slaughter.

    In Ireland anti-semitic sentiment came from thr church and from politicians like Oliver Flanagan. Essentially Jews were seen as christ killers.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,057 ✭✭✭MontgomeryClift


    Count Down wrote: »
    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.

    A better question: If they are the most persecuted race in Europe, why are they still here, and doing relatively well?


  • Registered Users Posts: 40,060 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    A better question: If they are the most persecuted race in Europe, why are they still here, and doing relatively well?

    relative to what, exactly? millions of them were murdered not so very long ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    Count Down wrote: »
    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.

    We could say that they are a widespread minority in Europe and the U.S. and simply the minority, and not the majority, will be the ones getting a kicking.

    I've interacted with only about 100-200 in my time, some more than others, some from Israel and some from elsewhere.

    They have largely been pleasant and helpful company, excepting one gruff Israeli girl I got talking to in a pub one evening who very much had her back up right from the off. Some of them in Italy and NY went out of their way to help me as a perfect stranger with zero tangible benefit accruing. Noble folks.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭Charles Ingles


    Count Down wrote: »
    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.

    Do want the real reason or the anti-Semitic answer?
    Jew people have a higher average intelligence hence go to on to be high achievers.
    They tend to pass on good money management through the generations and live their lives to a religious moral code.
    Simple answer is good old fashioned jealousy and begrudgers.
    Having said that I don't approve of Israel's actions in relation to Palestine but to be critical of Israel isn't anti-Semitic.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Count Down wrote: »
    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.

    More than gays, or gypsies etc? It doesn't really matter so much of course who had it worse, but rather the why, because they are different, minorities, easily dehumanised, and importantly easy targets


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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,794 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    A better question: If they are the most persecuted race in Europe, why are they still here, and doing relatively well?

    Citizens of countries are allowed to live in them. Why not be here (in Europe I assume you're asking about?) There's plenty to like.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    Also the Jewish history over the centuries as money lenders (believe related to some loophole in the bible) made them resented and marginalised by the society relying on those services


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,797 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    I disagree, even just talking about it here and highlighting that it's still an issue helps stops a slow creep of normalisation of anti semitism and covert anti semitic tropes that are common online ( Soros as the the big bad jew, denial of Israel's right to exist framed as anti-zionism). If Labour had kept in mind how serious it is and why it needs to be dealt with they wouldn't be having such a huge scandal now (although their opponents would still be trying)

    Attacks on Israel and attacks on George Soros aren't automatically anti-semitic though. People can have a serious problem with a foreign billionaire using his money to influence politics in countries other than his own country, that doesn't make them anti-semitic - many people I know on the right who criticise Soros for butting in to politics which are none of his business wouldn't even be aware of his ethnicity. And the idea that Israel has a right to exist where it does is one I support (strictly within the 1967 borders) but to suggest that it cannot be open to question or discussion - especially when it stems directly from decisions taken by the British Empire - is exceptionally dangerous for democratic freedom. If someone believes, for instance, that Israel's "right to exist" is invalid because they do not regard the British Empire as having had any moral authority to carve up its former nations, in the same way that many people want a united Ireland and regard partition here as illegitimate, I don't see how that makes them anti-semitic?

    Anti-semitism refers specifically to hating Jewish people as a people, or to hating their religious beliefs. Hating individual people who happen to be Jews for their behaviour (Soros) or delegitimising a country for entirely political reasons (Israel) is not anti-semitism or racism, and it is very dangerous for democratic freedoms to conflate the two.

    In that context, I'd love to hear more details on what form, specifically, the UK Labour Party's alleged antisemitism takes - because if it entirely relates to issues regarding Israel or issues regarding George Soros, then in my view it simply doesn't count as anti-semitism. At all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,794 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Simple answer is good old fashioned jealousy and begrudgers.

    Fed by political and religious leaders over time, however. Always good to have a scapegoat so your followers have someone else to blame for their unhappiness.

    Christianity, especially Catholocism, built a long-lasting religion that has a big component of antisemitism in it (the role of Jews in the Crucifixion was a big rallying point for millenia and not rebuked by the Church until 1965, and updated by Pope Benedict in 2011.)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    People are always looking for someone or something convinent to blame for their ****ty lives. It's horrible but with the rise of far right populism, Jewish people always seem to be in the firing line.

    Except in Palestine.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    What's Charlie Flanagan's views on Jews? Is he embarrassed about his father's views?


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    I don't think any person can honestly say he or she understands the Holocaust. The magnitude of its evil is unfathomable. Hannah Arendt's 'banality of evil' carried out by enormous numbers of "normal" people. And that's the scary part we all need to be alert to in these populist times where many people are simply not learning about the Holocaust.

    You may notice a trend in my posts throughout boards. It's that people are stupid. And I think it's important for us to remember that as individuals.

    We like to think that if we'd lived in nazi Germany we wouldn't have fallen for the lies and hatred but there's a good chance that we would have. There's nothing special about us as individuals. We all have the same ability to fall for propaganda and lies. The fact that there are people like anti semites, or even flat earthers, shows how people can still fall for the craziest ideas.

    BTW, Arendt is one of my favorite philosophers. Even if she hated people saying she was a philosopher. During the war she wondered what good they were.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    What's Charlie Flanagan's views on Jews? Is he embarrassed about his father's views?
    FFS That was 70 years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Edgware wrote: »
    FFS That was 70 years ago.

    What was 70 years ago?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 534 ✭✭✭Erik Shun


    What was 70 years ago?

    1949...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Also the Jewish history over the centuries as money lenders (believe related to some loophole in the bible) made them resented and marginalised by the society relying on those services


    "Usury" was forbidden as sinful by the Church up until the 16th Century. It had gradually been creeping in for a hundred or so years before that (eg, the Medicis). Then a speciallly convened group of Jesuit theologians found a way of justifying it and the ban disappeared.


    In earlier centuries, and in want of alternatives, people turned to Jews for their money lending needs. They were happy to get it but not always happy to re-pay it. A way out was to demonise the "moneylending Jew" with whatever accusations. The law was more likely to favour the "christian" accuser in such situations. Witness the caricature of Shylock in the Merchant of Venice.


    Also, princes and kings, etc from time to time might find an urge to "punish sin" in their domains. They could do this by attacking Jews and confiscating their money and valuables as ill-gotten gains of usury. They generally found the need to "punish sin" when their coffers were running short.


    Jews have always been the scapegoats.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,083 ✭✭✭Farawayhome


    Erik Shun wrote: »
    1949...

    Yes. He hasn't returned to tell about what happened then!


  • Registered Users Posts: 794 ✭✭✭moonage


    Count Down wrote: »
    A question I've asked many times and have never received a satisfactory answer: Why, in the last few hundred years, are the Jews the most persecuted race in Europe?
    There must be a good reason.

    It's hard to get an unbiased answer to this question because the media is largely under Jewish ownership and control. Hence any google, youtube or amazon searches come up blank or rather produce material on "the causes of anti-Semitism" written, of course, by Jews.

    Thomas Dalton in his "Eternal Strangers: Anti-Jewish Musings throughout History" articles says the following:

    "...the evident persistence of certain complaints across
    millennia and over diverse nations and societies is indicative of a real,
    objective, underlying cause: personal and sociological Jewish traits
    that have a large genetic component. Five themes in particular stand
    out as dominant and enduring criticisms: (1) a fixation on money and
    material wealth, marked by economic deception, theft, and usury; (2)
    disproportionate and irresponsible use of power, in the spheres of politics, intellectual discourse, and media; (3) seditious, rebellious, and
    war-mongering behavior; (4) vice-ridden, morally weak, and exploitative of others’ vices; and (5) misanthropic. Where Jews appear, so too
    do these problems. The form and intensity of their manifestation may
    be culture-specific, but their presence is virtually guaranteed, indicating a strong racial or ethnic origin."

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v11n4/TOQ-Winter-2011-2012.pdf


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,794 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    moonage wrote: »
    Thomas Dalton

    Didn't take long for the holocaust deniers to show up. A chance to vent their antisemitic spleen not to be missed. Not the first time on Boards at all.

    Yes, Dalton's a denier. His garbage is up on CODOH's site, another nexus of denier bullsh1t.


  • Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    I think I am more semitic than those "semites". Title should antijudaism and not antisemitism.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,067 ✭✭✭✭Grayson


    moonage wrote: »
    It's hard to get an unbiased answer to this question because the media is largely under Jewish ownership and control. Hence any google, youtube or amazon searches come up blank or rather produce material on "the causes of anti-Semitism" written, of course, by Jews.

    Thomas Dalton in his "Eternal Strangers: Anti-Jewish Musings throughout History" articles says the following:

    "...the evident persistence of certain complaints across
    millennia and over diverse nations and societies is indicative of a real,
    objective, underlying cause: personal and sociological Jewish traits
    that have a large genetic component. Five themes in particular stand
    out as dominant and enduring criticisms: (1) a fixation on money and
    material wealth, marked by economic deception, theft, and usury; (2)
    disproportionate and irresponsible use of power, in the spheres of politics, intellectual discourse, and media; (3) seditious, rebellious, and
    war-mongering behavior; (4) vice-ridden, morally weak, and exploitative of others’ vices; and (5) misanthropic. Where Jews appear, so too
    do these problems. The form and intensity of their manifestation may
    be culture-specific, but their presence is virtually guaranteed, indicating a strong racial or ethnic origin."

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v11n4/TOQ-Winter-2011-2012.pdf

    Thomas Dalton the holocaust denier?


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,704 ✭✭✭✭Dohnjoe


    moonage wrote: »
    It's hard to get an unbiased answer to this question because the media is largely under Jewish ownership and control. Hence any google, youtube or amazon searches come up blank or rather produce material on "the causes of anti-Semitism" written, of course, by Jews.

    Thomas Dalton in his "Eternal Strangers: Anti-Jewish Musings throughout History" articles says the following:

    "...the evident persistence of certain complaints across
    millennia and over diverse nations and societies is indicative of a real,
    objective, underlying cause: personal and sociological Jewish traits
    that have a large genetic component. Five themes in particular stand
    out as dominant and enduring criticisms: (1) a fixation on money and
    material wealth, marked by economic deception, theft, and usury; (2)
    disproportionate and irresponsible use of power, in the spheres of politics, intellectual discourse, and media; (3) seditious, rebellious, and
    war-mongering behavior; (4) vice-ridden, morally weak, and exploitative of others’ vices; and (5) misanthropic. Where Jews appear, so too
    do these problems. The form and intensity of their manifestation may
    be culture-specific, but their presence is virtually guaranteed, indicating a strong racial or ethnic origin."

    https://www.toqonline.com/archives/v11n4/TOQ-Winter-2011-2012.pdf

    Uh oh..


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,794 ✭✭✭✭Igotadose


    Dohnjoe wrote: »
    Uh oh..

    Thread closing in....


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,254 ✭✭✭1641


    Did Dalton write anything about the innate tendencies of the Irish. After all we have been described as thick, feckless, drunken, violent, deceitful, apelike, piglike, cunning, etc. They even had pictures and images to prove it. Maybe Dalton should check if we are Jewish too ?

    https://thesocietypages.org/socimages/2011/01/28/irish-apes-tactics-of-de-humanization/
    https://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.3149405!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_620/image.jpg
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c0/Monkeyirishman.jpg


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,869 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Antisemitism seems to come from a few angles atm

    1 From the far right Neo Nazi types, skinheads ect

    2 From the far left communist leaning types like you see in the Labor Party in England and people in the US like Ilhan Omar.

    3 From members of other religious groups historically christian but no mostly Muslims.

    Either way it's an evil and despicable trend regardless of who it comes from, As mentioned by others if you actually visit a concentration camp to see all those baby shoes, suitcases etc knowing what happened to those people it makes you have some sympathy as to why Israel might act the way they do given Jewish history.


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