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Why is there ever a debate about who was the best Irish Sports person ever? *READ OP*

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  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    Feisar wrote: »
    You missed the point, baby

    The topic is: whose the best Irish sports person

    Said people ain’t Irish .

    The quote about Belfast being as European as Paris is laughable too , not to mention mentioning Europe in order to pretend that Belfast is an Irish city


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    Greyfox wrote: »
    Your having a laugh, the other 3 are only legends by Irish Standards. Keane is a legend by world standards, he's one of the best players to ever play in English football.

    Liam Brady is still a legend in Italy 30 years later. Keane never played for side outside a British or Irish league.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,204 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    The topic is: whose the best Irish sports person

    Said people ain’t Irish .


    Yes they are. They are Northern Irish and also Birtish citizens. I can also tell you that anyone in England for example will regard someone from NI as Irish.

    What you are saying is akin to saying Gareth Bale ain't Welsh. He is British- which is still true but "British" or "Britishness" is a collective term for the English, Scots, Welsh and NI.

    Interestingly the official title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

    A person from NI is British citizen (or subject) but NI is not part of Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,204 ✭✭✭partyguinness


    paul71 wrote: »
    Liam Brady is still a legend in Italy 30 years later. Keane never played for side outside a British or Irish league.


    Brady is still a legand but I wouldnt criticise Keane for not playing in mainland Europe. Plenty of players stick to one league.


  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    This statement demonstrates your particular lack of understanding in discussing the relative legacies of either Roche or Kelly; no-one with even a cursory interest in cycling would claim Armstrong was the greatest - he never won a Monument.

    The Tour de France is greatly overrated too And way too much focus on it by the casuals

    I accept that even in one days, you need a team to do all the heavy work for the first 160km etc , but the Tour can be very boring in stages. Even the bunch sprints can be boring (Last two editions were fun)

    . You can win a tour without winning a stage eg LeMond and Froome ( or even a TT) So kudos to guys like Segan who compete for the sprints and the win and come back and try again after a few bad days in the mountains . It he’d come no where in the GC . In Kelly’s time, he was top 10 in several TDF GC while winning The Green jersey .

    The GC lads take it handy in the first week bar the team TT . (Though the last two editions, the organisers changed things up )

    Anyway, the Giro has been fantastic in the last few years , always something crazy going on, even when Roche won his. there was loads of drama . Very unpredictable Race , like the Italians themselves .

    Tom Doumlon (excuse the spelling ) win /Quintaina choking was a special one in 2017, even Froomes win in 2018 . The 2014 tour which came to Ireland was a good edition too

    The Vuelta is often overlooked but since they shortened the race length it’s very explosive , you got lads who are coming off a disappointing or a decent TDF going all out to win races

    With one day events, MONUMENTS matter ! **** the lottery that is the world championship. Bar Amstel Gold , sod the semi classics and mid mid week races (looking at you Mr Sagan )

    St Patrick’s week (Milan San Remro) to last week end of April, each weekend a major race with Paris Roubaix , Flanders, (then Amstel) liege Baston Liege ... hard riding , not a day for taking it handy . Very few riders compete in all 4 monuments and the semi classics like Amstel (other monument in October )

    Monuments matter. Most of the great Tour de France winners and contenders have won at least one monument (or least placed ,Contador )

    Armstrong , who was down as a future one day star didn’t win a lot when he raced before cancer. A world championship (meh, end of season ,it’s a lottery) and a semi classic. Poor record in monuments , (the few he rode in) post cancer he rode very little , just the Criterium and TDF and then stop for the season . Least Contador took part in early season stage races like Paris Nice . Valverde,lol, didn’t matter what is was he just rode and has his fair share of wins (won Vuelta )


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  • Registered Users Posts: 859 ✭✭✭Randy Archer


    Yes they are. They are Northern Irish and also Birtish citizens. I can also tell you that anyone in England for example will regard someone from NI as Irish.

    What you are saying is akin to saying Gareth Bale ain't Welsh. He is British- which is still true but "British" or "Britishness" is a collective term for the English, Scots, Welsh and NI.

    Interestingly the official title is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

    A person from NI is British citizen (or subject) but NI is not part of Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom.

    You can’t be both. Either one or the other, really. The Brits legally still see them as British as of birth . Northern Irish ain’t a nationality either and Northern Ireland Ain’t Ireland .There no such thing as Northern Irish citizenship. It certainly is not the same as Irish citizenship even if it existed

    The British government and Northern Ireland Courts were quite clear about that in the De Souza immigration case (before you look it up and note that the couple finally got what they wanted, it still was not an overruling of the court case on the interpretation of the GFA. An administrative decision was made to accommodate the situation that avoided re looking at GFA and the clear bad faith of the British over what GFA really means to them )

    So the English lad will class a Nordie as Irish, oh how lovely. Sure the rugby mob still class Ireland as a Home Nation and it is the United Kingdom of Great Britain AND Northern Ireland . Sure they always claim the Irish north and south as British , when it suits .Unionist class the six counties as Ulster, conveniently ignoring that the full 9 counties would have them in a spot of bother

    Gareth Bale ? Lol how ? Wales is PART OF Great BRITAIN . It’s legal jurisdiction is England AND Wales . There’s no dispute over the territory of Wales as to what “country” it is . Bar a tiny tiny minority , the Welsh are content with remaining British

    NI is part of the U.K. Ireland is NOT part of the U.K.

    Not the same

    The Gaul of “geniuses “ and fantasist like you to suggest that one missed the point . Dream land ain’t the same as reality, chief


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,151 ✭✭✭✭cj maxx


    teednab-el wrote: »
    Il name a few who derserve a mention as they were successful in the big stage.

    Roy Keane
    Paul McGrath
    Brian O Driscoll
    Ronan O Gara
    Katie Taylor
    Conor Mc Gregor
    Stephen Roche
    Sean Kelly
    Michael Crute
    Michelle de Brun
    Eddie Jordan

    Should be in most lists.

    Add in Jack O'Shea for example.
    Some of the great Dublin/Down of the 60's 70's.
    No word of international sports star in the title.!


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,092 ✭✭✭The Tetrarch


    paul71 wrote: »
    Liam Brady is still a legend in Italy 30 years later. Keane never played for side outside a British or Irish league.
    I may have the facts wrong, but around 1980 the Italian League was the big money league in Europe.
    When Italian teams were allowed sign foreign players in 1980 (I think one player a team) Juventus chose Brady.
    Juventus won the League in 1981 and 1982.
    When Brady left Juventus in summer 1982 his replacement at Juventus was Michel Platini of Saint-Etienne (French league winners in 1981).
    Platini was French captain in the 1982 World Cup.
    France were knocked out in the semi-finals on penalties by West Germany, 3-3 after extra time, after leading 3-1 in extra time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭teednab-el



    A person from NI is British citizen (or subject) but NI is not part of Britain. It is part of the United Kingdom.

    Depends on what passport they have. Some wont agree with that statement. Not all NI citizens have British passports. Half of them have Irish passports and see themselves as Nationalists not Unionists. 'Irish' passport in these terms refers to a republican passport.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭teednab-el



    but "British" or "Britishness" is a collective term for the English, Scots, Welsh and NI.

    Not correct.

    Great Britain = England Scotland and Wales
    United Kingdom = England Scotland Wales and NI


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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,102 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    Athletics
    Ronnie Delaney
    Eamonn Coughlan
    John Tracey

    FFS.

    Delany
    Coghlan
    Treacy


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    I may have the facts wrong, but around 1980 the Italian League was the big money league in Europe.
    When Italian teams were allowed sign foreign players in 1980 (I think one player a team) Juventus chose Brady.
    Juventus won the League in 1981 and 1982.
    When Brady left Juventus in summer 1982 his replacement at Juventus was Michel Platini of Saint-Etienne (French league winners in 1981).
    Platini was French captain in the 1982 World Cup.
    France were knocked out in the semi-finals on penalties by West Germany, 3-3 after extra time, after leading 3-1 in extra time.

    Your facts are correct. Juve bought him for €500,000. He was the play maker on the team that won 2 consecutive Seria A titles, many Juve fans were unhappy with him being being replaced by Platini.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFOK03X5NLM

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moNuQdF4kvo

    In the second link try count the number of times the Italian commentator says Brady. Note the other names Baresi, and Rumminger, he was the dominant playmaking force in teams and a league that just dripped with the names that will never be forgotten on the World stage.

    Brady was the Irishman who showed the Italians how to play possesion football.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,734 ✭✭✭Motivator


    Padraig Harrington is the best sports person we have ever produced. For those of you with little to no interest in golf, just look up his achievements in 2007 and 2008 alone. He was the best player in the world, not on official rankings though - he was 3rd, but on form. He was playing unbelievable golf and won three majors in 12 months which won’t ever be done again by an Irish golfer. On top of his talent and achievements he’s an unbelievably nice man and a great ambassador for Ireland.

    Roy Keane being nominated is a joke and is being heralded as the greatest by biased Man United fans. Keane wasn’t even the best player in the Man United team and wouldn’t be in the top 3 midfielders to play in the Premier League. That’s a fact.


  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Rockbeast2


    I didn't mean to be disrespectful to Roy Keane in my previous post, no doubt he was a great player. But he was a cog in a domestically dominant Manchester Utd team. A Manchester Utd team that won the league before he joined and continued to have success after he left.

    He "won" a European Cup without playing in the final. A Champions League that, if memory serves, they weren't even Premier League champions upon entry. It was calamity after calamity for Utd in Europe during the majority of Keane's time there.

    You could write a book about Keane's attitude to Ireland; Saipan, Iran, attitude to friendly games, etc.. I'm pretty sure he was giving out about the U-21 set-up when he was 18/19.

    Greatest Irish sportsperson? No thanks.

    * Graeme Souness was arguably a better player than Roy, objectively more successful as both a player and manager. Are we really going to say that Graeme Souness (I've met him - he's a sound guy) as a sportsperson is superior to Ireland's greatest sportsperson? I don't want to live in that world! ;-)


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,971 ✭✭✭teednab-el


    Rockbeast2 wrote: »
    Keane

    Greatest Irish sportsperson? No thanks.

    Yeah whatever. He was better than you anyway and did more for Ireland than you ever did or ever will.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,095 ✭✭✭paul71


    teednab-el wrote: »
    Yeah whatever. He was better than you anyway and did more for Ireland than you ever did or ever will.

    How is that relevant?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    Rockbeast2 wrote: »
    I didn't mean to be disrespectful to Roy Keane in my previous post, no doubt he was a great player. But he was a cog in a domestically dominant Manchester Utd team. A Manchester Utd team that won the league before he joined and continued to have success after he left.

    He "won" a European Cup without playing in the final. A Champions League that, if memory serves, they weren't even Premier League champions upon entry. It was calamity after calamity for Utd in Europe during the majority of Keane's time there.

    You could write a book about Keane's attitude to Ireland; Saipan, Iran, attitude to friendly games, etc.. I'm pretty sure he was giving out about the U-21 set-up when he was 18/19.

    Greatest Irish sportsperson? No thanks.

    * Graeme Souness was arguably a better player than Roy, objectively more successful as both a player and manager. Are we really going to say that Graeme Souness (I've met him - he's a sound guy) as a sportsperson is superior to Ireland's greatest sportsperson? I don't want to live in that world! ;-)

    Keane more than deserved that CL medal after his performance against Juventus.


  • Registered Users Posts: 798 ✭✭✭Rockbeast2


    Keane more than deserved that CL medal after his performance against Juventus.

    For sure. No argument here.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    teednab-el wrote: »
    Yeah whatever. He was better than you anyway and did more for Ireland than you ever did or ever will.
    Did he fall down a well?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Truthvader wrote: »
    By showing up

    You are just trolling.

    Is he though?

    While there is no denying that Roy Keane was very talented player, the fact the he threw a strop and walked out on his national team at the crucial moment would discount him as the best Irish sportsperson ever in the eyes of many people, this poster included.

    Tbh I'm surprised to see so few mentions of Robbie Keane in this thread - he seemed to be the only player scoring any goals for Ireland at times. Towards the end of his career, he was the highest-scoring international footballer in the world currently playing - so really meeting all the criteria of excelling on the world stage when representing his country.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭Mysterypunter


    I am sorry but when you abandon your home country to play for England (or any other country) for personal ambition and gain you cannot be classed or even discussed as one of the best "Irish Sports person ever". Nobody in Ireland really gives **** about cricket anyway except a few ex pats and Asian medics. It had a novelty factor during the 2007 WC.

    And people criticise Roy Keane for apparently walking out on his country. Give me a break.
    He left to further his career, it's a higher standard which he would not have been able to play, as Ireland were not a test nation, by that reasoning, Roy Keane should never have left Cobh Ramblers


  • Registered Users Posts: 84,341 ✭✭✭✭JP Liz V1




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,695 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Looking at Roy’s achievements, and his career.

    12 years at Manchester United, Captain for 8 years

    Champions League winner x1

    Premier League winner x7

    FA Cup winner x4

    Celtic


    Scottish Premier League winner x1

    Scottish League Cup winner x1


    Played professional football for 16 years, the majority at the pinnacle and high pressure end of the sport. Won 14 trophies. That’s greatness, greatness consistency, achieved in a seriously competitive league for the most part.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭Mysterypunter


    Strumms wrote: »
    Looking at Roy’s achievements, and his career.

    12 years at Manchester United, Captain for 8 years

    Champions League winner x1

    Premier League winner x7

    FA Cup winner x4

    Celtic


    Scottish Premier League winner x1

    Scottish League Cup winner x1


    Played professional football for 16 years, the majority at the pinnacle and high pressure end of the sport. Won 14 trophies. That’s greatness, greatness consistency, achieved in a seriously competitive league for the most part.
    Especially the Scottish league, that's a really high standard. I know he was a decent player, but united had some squad. If u want to nominate a decorated player then John O'Shea is your man


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Strumms wrote: »
    Looking at Roy’s achievements, and his career.

    12 years at Manchester United, Captain for 8 years

    Champions League winner x1

    Premier League winner x7

    FA Cup winner x4

    Celtic


    Scottish Premier League winner x1

    Scottish League Cup winner x1


    Played professional football for 16 years, the majority at the pinnacle and high pressure end of the sport. Won 14 trophies. That’s greatness, greatness consistency, achieved in a seriously competitive league for the most part.

    You've said that a couple of times already now - Dennis Irwin and John O'Shea would have similar medal hauls, Robbie Keane had a longer career; what is it that put Roy Keane's career ahead of any of the rest of them?


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,695 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Especially the Scottish league, that's a really high standard. I know he was a decent player, but united had some squad. If u want to nominate a decorated player then John O'Shea is your man

    That’s why I said ‘for the most part’. Still it’s an accomplishment.

    OShea is a very decorated player himself but I think he had less overall ability and impact, there were far more influential and talented, Roy being one. :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,695 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    You've said that a couple of times already now - Dennis Irwin and John O'Shea would have similar medal hauls, Robbie Keane had a longer career; what is it that put Roy Keane's career ahead of any of the rest of them?

    John o Shea was for much of his career, a squad player who achieved less success while being at the club for a similar duration.

    Robbie won in England, one League Cup. I’ve quoted the number of trophies Roy won. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    You've said that a couple of times already now - Dennis Irwin and John O'Shea would have similar medal hauls, Robbie Keane had a longer career; what is it that put Roy Keane's career ahead of any of the rest of them?

    Ultimately it's because Keane had a bigger influence on the team. Listen to any ex players in those United teams and they'll say he drove them on and got the best out of the them. Irwin was excellent, but Keane held the captaincy, was a respected leader and was a major driving force behind the success.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,615 ✭✭✭El Tarangu


    Ultimately it's because Keane had a bigger influence on the team. Listen to any ex players in those United teams and they'll say he drove them on and got the best out of the them. Irwin was excellent, but Keane held the captaincy, was a respected leader and was a major driving force behind the success.

    In the context of being the best 'Irish sportsperson ever', how would you rate the leadership he displayed as captain of the national team in the world cup in 2002?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭ToddDameron


    El Tarangu wrote: »
    In the context of being the best 'Irish sportsperson ever', how would you rate the leadership he displayed as captain of the national team in the world cup in 2002?

    If you're saying that somehow negates his achievements with United then I disagree. You asked why he gets favoured over Irwin, I told you why. He still won the same amount of trophies, regardless of Saipan. He's also not any less Irish because of Saipan, so I would say in the context of the greatest Irish sportsperson it has no bearing on his objective success, as evidenced by his medals and the role he played in obtaining them. His Ireland career has never really been part of the discussion of his success anyway, same with Irwin.

    Just because someone did something you didn't like, doesn't mean they haven't been successful. I've never been a fan of his personality wise, or a United fan, but trophies are indisputable.


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