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Christanity derived from paganism
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kieranwaldron wrote: »......There is nothing in the whole of the Bible to substantiate the belief that the soul lives on after death; the Bible indicates that man goes nowhere when he dies except to the grave.
What about St Paul e.g.
http://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/15-14.htm0 -
I don't see why Joe1919 referred me to St Paul who is the author of Corinthians. In now way does the latter contradict my assertion a person goes nowhere when they die. The Bible however does talk about a resurrection of the dead at a future date when Christ returns to the earth followed by a judgement in which a person is either given everlasting life or destroyed permanently.0
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kieranwaldron wrote: »I don't see why Joe1919 referred me to St Paul who is the author of Corinthians. In now way does the latter contradict my assertion a person goes nowhere when they die. The Bible however does talk about a resurrection of the dead at a future date when Christ returns to the earth followed by a judgement in which a person is either given everlasting life or destroyed permanently.
I see what your saying i.e. The bible talks of resurrection. It is often argued that Christianity was influenced by the Greeks/ Plato transmigration of souls idea (Neoplatonism) . The Romans also used the idea that people could achieve immortality by brave and heroic acts and this was used to give an incentive to the army, (according to Cicero).0 -
have a look on youtube for 'zeitgeist the movie'. its a long video, but it has a long of interesting views on where the roots of Christianity can be found, particularly in what we would now class as 'pagan religions'. I'm not sure how much of it is fact, but it does get you thinking.0
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The ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed the soul was immortal. The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato also believed the soul lived on after death. Plato publicised this belief in his various writings which had a big influence on the then civilised world circa 400 BC, and those who followed afterwards.I see what your saying i.e. The bible talks of resurrection. It is often argued that Christianity was influenced by the Greeks/ Plato transmigration of souls idea (Neoplatonism) . The Romans also used the idea that people could achieve immortality by brave and heroic acts and this was used to give an incentive to the army, (according to Cicero).
One of the main founding influences in the Catholic Church, around 200 AD, was Tertullian who was a prolific author. Tertullian asserted the belief that the soul was immortal in his writings and even gave credit for the idea to Plato. The writings of Tertullian formed the basis of what the Catholic Church taught about the soul in the following centuries.
It therefore can be seen from the above that pagan ideas got incorrectly taught by the dominant Christian church at the expense of what God said in the Bible !0 -
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Over the weekend, I did have a look at the video referred to by you for an hour or so. The gist of what was said in it appears to be that everyone has lied to you including governments and church leaders. In the case of the Catholic Church, is isn't so much a case of lying to the public as teaching falsehoods which they themselves believe to be true. In the Catholic Church, you cannot legitimately challenge any of their teachings without running the risk of excommunication as happened to Martin Luther approximately 500 years ago.PolaroidPizza wrote: »have a look on youtube for 'zeitgeist the movie'. its a long video, but it has a long of interesting views on where the roots of Christianity can be found, particularly in what we would now class as 'pagan religions'. I'm not sure how much of it is fact, but it does get you thinking.0 -
kieranwaldron wrote: »I don't see why Joe1919 referred me to St Paul who is the author of Corinthians. In now way does the latter contradict my assertion a person goes nowhere when they die. The Bible however does talk about a resurrection of the dead at a future date when Christ returns to the earth followed by a judgement in which a person is either given everlasting life or destroyed permanently.
Actually many Christian theologians don't necessarily believe you go anywhere when you die but wait for the resurrection. That's called soul sleep.
Christian theology is influenced by Judaism and the beliefs of Greek philosophy. Folk Christianity especially Catholicism is syncretic with different local pagan superstitions, with local gods becoming saints ( Brigid for example) but that's often rejected by Protestants. As was Christmas. So the "pagan" influences are not essential and rejected by the Protestant reformation.0 -
I wouldn't pay too much attention to Zeitgeist, the movie. I have only reviewed some of the claims it made about Christianity but they are, basically, b*alls on a stick. Before we rush to agree with its thesis that "everyone has lied to you including governments and church leaders" we should consider the possibility that, maybe, the producers of Zeitgeist are lying to us.
On the wider point, Christianity did get its ideas of an afterlife from the Greeks - sort of. Via Judaism.
Judaism, and in particular the Hebrew scriptures, doesn't have a great deal to say about the afterlife. It seems to have been a relatively late arrival in the Jewish worldview, but it was certainly there before the time of Christ. During Christ's own time, it was a matter of debate among different Jewish movements - basically the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, the Pharisees did. In adopting their views about the afterlife, and in particular their views about the nature of the afterlife, yes, the Jews were influenced by the Greek philosophy and culture with which they had come into extensive contact. And that influence of course continued during the period when Christianity emerged as a distinct movement, and separated itself from Judaism.0 -
kieranwaldron wrote: »The ancient Egyptians and Greeks believed the soul was immortal. The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato also believed the soul lived on after death. Plato publicised this belief in his various writings which had a big influence on the then civilised world circa 400 BC, and those who followed afterwards.
One of the main founding influences in the Catholic Church, around 200 AD, was Tertullian who was a prolific author. Tertullian asserted the belief that the soul was immortal in his writings and even gave credit for the idea to Plato. The writings of Tertullian formed the basis of what the Catholic Church taught about the soul in the following centuries.
It therefore can be seen from the above that pagan ideas got incorrectly taught by the dominant Christian church at the expense of what God said in the Bible !
I don't know if you are a Christian or not ( I am not). Jesus clearly references his fathers house in the NT, and tells the penitent thief that he will be in paradise with him on that day. Catholic theologians were looking for Greek philosophy to justify ideas they already had ( same with Augustine and Acquinas).0 -
I went to primary and secondary schools run by the Catholic Church. However, from a young age I had doubts about teachings such as hell as a place of punishment for the wicked, and purgatory. In recent years, since I started to consult the Bible, I have rejected such teachings as valid as the Bible confirms man does not have an immortal soul on which such teachings are founded. Therefore at present I am a Christian who doesn't belong to any particular church.Eugene Norman wrote: »I don't know if you are a Christian or not ( I am not). Jesus clearly references his fathers house in the NT, and tells the penitent thief that he will be in paradise with him on that day. Catholic theologians were looking for Greek philosophy to justify ideas they already had ( same with Augustine and Acquinas).0 -
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Judaism, and in particular the Hebrew scriptures, doesn't have a great deal to say about the afterlife. It seems to have been a relatively late arrival in the Jewish worldview, but it was certainly there before the time of Christ. During Christ's own time, it was a matter of debate among different Jewish movements - basically the Sadducees did not believe in an afterlife, the Pharisees did. In adopting their views about the afterlife, and in particular their views about the nature of the afterlife, yes, the Jews were influenced by the Greek philosophy and culture with which they had come into extensive contact. And that influence of course continued during the period when Christianity emerged as a distinct movement, and separated itself from Judaism.[/QUOTE]
The Greek philosophers Socrates and Plato had a big influence on mankind circa 400 BC and in the following centuries about the immortality of the soul. The statements made in the Bible on the subject got corrupted and then adapted by the main Christian church of the day, the Catholic Church, and taught incorrectly as if the source was the Bible. The Bible is quite clear that man is mortal !0 -
kieranwaldron wrote: »I went to primary and secondary schools run by the Catholic Church. However, from a young age I had doubts about teachings such as hell as a place of punishment for the wicked, and purgatory. In recent years, since I started to consult the Bible, I have rejected such teachings as valid as the Bible confirms man does not have an immortal soul on which such teachings are founded. Therefore at present I am a Christian who doesn't belong to any particular church.
You're a Christian who doesn't believe in an immortal soul? Seems pointless.0 -
Eugene Norman wrote: »You're a Christian who doesn't believe in an immortal soul? Seems pointless.
Main-stream Christian churches have incorrectly taught that the sole is immortal. Other Christian churches such as the Jehovas Witnesses and Christadelphians teach man is wholly mortal. I believe that when Jesus Christ returns to the earth, as is predicted in the Bible, there will be a resurrection of the dead followed by a judgement, and based on it a person will then either be given everlasting life (immortality) or destroyed permanently.0 -
Constantine was responsible for the modern form of Christianity, before the 4th century there were several streams, all independent.
The Romans incorporated bits of Mithra, Hermeticism (see corpus hermetica), celtic paganism, roman paganism and of course the Christian cult itself that had evolved out of radical Judaism (propably essenes).
What the CC did was eliminate gnosticism and any 'heretic' forms of christianity to create it's 'one and only' reinvented brand controlled from Rome. They thought they had destroyed or captured almost all of the Gnostic and Jewish texts that relate to the early church, but the dead sea scrolls and nag hamadi gospels survived to demonstrate that some of the ideas in christianity pre-date Jesus. The idea of the trinity was probably stolen from the druids of gaul or britain. Certainly Mary was elevated to divine status to attract followers of Isis, Ishtar, Brigid etc - without a female character to worship the CC was missing out on potential followers and income of course!
The ideas about the afterlife and judgment are lifted straight out of Egyptian religion, also the ideas about the soul relate to helenic and celtic belief in the immortal soul, although CC rejected any idea of reincarnation.
Modern christianity is a mixed bag, we'll probably never understand exactly what Jesus' pure teachings were - probably the closest we'd get is the officially discredited gospel of Thomas.
Anyway, we can thank the CC for preserving our festivals (albeit wrong dates) and some pagan practices such as candle lighting, holy water, altars, visiting holy wells, baptism etc - what they could not destroy they assimilated instead )0 -
OK, there's a few grains of truth in here, but it's basically all Dan Brown-type nonsense. There is no historical record of systematic attempts by the church to destroy gnostic or Jewish texts; while the Nag Hammadi texts are important, most of the gnostic texts we have survived because they were preserved in monastic libraries. Beliefs about the Trinity certainly do not stem from Celtic druidism. There were independent streams of Christianity not only before the fourth century, but after it. And there still are today. Christian ideas about afterlife and judgment are not "lifted straight out of Egyptian religion"; they were inherited from first-century Pharisaic Judaism. I don't think many scholars believe that Christianity evolved from Essene Judaism; the Essenes may have had some influence on St. Thomas Christianity in India, but in general Christianity's inheritance from Pharisaic Judaism is obvious and striking. And so forth.joseph dawton wrote: »Constantine was responsible for the modern form of Christianity, before the 4th century there were several streams, all independent . . .
Are there elements of Christianity derived from paganism? Yes, but they are mostly superficial - date of Christmas, veneration of holy wells, that kind of thing - and they are massively outweighed both by the elements derived from Judaism and by the influences of Greek philosophy - both direct (influences on early Christian thought) and indirect (influences on pre-Christian Jewish thought, transmitted through Judaism to Christianity).
None of this is news, and people who proclaim it as though they think it's a massive "Gotcha!" are usually disappointed at the equanimity with which it is received. This is old news, not particularly disturbing and in no way a challenge to Christian belief. It's entirely consistent the the self-understanding of mainstream Christianity.0 -
joseph dawton wrote: »Constantine was responsible for the modern form of Christianity, before the 4th century there were several streams, all independent.
The Romans incorporated bits of Mithra, Hermeticism (see corpus hermetica), celtic paganism, roman paganism and of course the Christian cult itself that had evolved out of radical Judaism (propably essenes).
What the CC did was eliminate gnosticism and any 'heretic' forms of christianity to create it's 'one and only' reinvented brand controlled from Rome. They thought they had destroyed or captured almost all of the Gnostic and Jewish texts that relate to the early church, but the dead sea scrolls and nag hamadi gospels survived to demonstrate that some of the ideas in christianity pre-date Jesus. The idea of the trinity was probably stolen from the druids of gaul or britain. Certainly Mary was elevated to divine status to attract followers of Isis, Ishtar, Brigid etc - without a female character to worship the CC was missing out on potential followers and income of course!
The ideas about the afterlife and judgment are lifted straight out of Egyptian religion, also the ideas about the soul relate to helenic and celtic belief in the immortal soul, although CC rejected any idea of reincarnation.
Modern christianity is a mixed bag, we'll probably never understand exactly what Jesus' pure teachings were - probably the closest we'd get is the officially discredited gospel of Thomas.
Anyway, we can thank the CC for preserving our festivals (albeit wrong dates) and some pagan practices such as candle lighting, holy water, altars, visiting holy wells, baptism etc - what they could not destroy they assimilated instead )
Thanks for your comments on my posts. I agree with quite a lot of what you have said above.
I believe basically that true Christianity is as per the Bible. That said. you have got to be careful with the Bible because it contains mistranslations and other errors. However, some teachings or principles are repeated again and again by the various different authors in the Bible and therefore should be considered as central to the overall message.
I did my own investigations as what the Catholic Church (CC) teach on various subjects and came to the conclusion they contradict the Bible with their doctrines on the following.
!. The doctrine of the trinity.
2. The teaching that man has an immortal soul.
3. The teaching that their is immediate judgement after death.
4. The teaching of hell as a place of punishment for the wicked.
5. The teaching of the existence of a place called purgatory.
6. The teaching that salvation entails getting to heaven.
7. Their encouragement of the worship of the Virgin Mary.
The above listed are just the CC's main diversions from the Bible on doctrine. Their practice of insisting on celibacy for priests also contradicts the Bible. Some of their dates for festivals and practices are also derived from pagan origins.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »O
Are there elements of Christianity derived from paganism? Yes, but they are mostly superficial - date of Christmas, veneration of holy wells, that kind of thing - and they are massively outweighed both by the elements derived from Judaism and by the influences of Greek philosophy - both direct (influences on early Christian thought) and indirect (influences on pre-Christian Jewish thought, transmitted through Judaism to Christianity).
None of this is news, and people who proclaim it as though they think it's a massive "Gotcha!" are usually disappointed at the equanimity with which it is received. This is old news, not particularly disturbing and in no way a challenge to Christian belief. It's entirely consistent the the self-understanding of mainstream Christianity.
The incorrect teaching by mainstream Christian churches that man has an immortal soul, as publicised by Plato, is hardly " superficial" ; it is the central plank on which the teachings of going to heaven, hell or purgatory at death are based.0 -
Well, I'm not sure why you label it as "incorrect". But leave that aside; the question is whether Christianity acquired the notion of an immortal soul from paganism or inherited it from Judaism? And the answer is, from Judaism.
Jewish beliefs may in turn have been influenced by pagan beliefs, of course. On that view you can argue that the entirety of the Christian faith is derived from paganism. But I don't think that's what you're saying.0 -
Peregrinus wrote: »Well, I'm not sure why you label it as "incorrect". But leave that aside; the question is whether Christianity acquired the notion of an immortal soul from paganism or inherited it from Judaism? And the answer is, from Judaism.
Jewish beliefs may in turn have been influenced by pagan beliefs, of course. On that view you can argue that the entirety of the Christian faith is derived from paganism. But I don't think that's what you're saying.
With regard to your comments, the idea that the soul is immortal was first asserted by the ancient Egyptians. The Egyptians influenced the ancient Greeks who adopted the same belief. The Greek philosophers Socrates and his pupil Plato also believed the soul lived on after death. Plato publicised this belief in his writings circa 400 BC. The writings of the latter influenced the civilised world, including the Jews, during his lifetime and for centuries after that. No less a publication than the Encyclopedia Britannica acknowledges this fact when it said the following: "Traditional Western philosophy, starting with the ancient Greeks...shaped the basic Western concepts of the soul."
It can therefore can be seen from the above that the belief in the immortality of the soul clearly has pagan origins. The writings of Plato also influenced Christian scholars like Tertullian, who asserted this belief in his writings , and gave credit for the concept to the Greek philosopher. Tertullian had a major influence in setting out the core beliefs of the Catholic Church around 200 AD; and those beliefs are still with us today.
When I said in my post that the belief in question was " incorrect ", I mean it contradicts the Bible. There is no statement to be found anywhere in the Bible substantiating the belief that man, or any part of him, is immortal.0 -
Sure. But in that sense all Christian beliefs, without exception, are of pagan origin, aren't they?kieranwaldron wrote: »With regard to your comments, the idea that the soul is immortal was first asserted by the ancient Egyptians. The Egyptians influenced the ancient Greeks who adopted the same belief. The Greek philosophers Socrates and his pupil Plato also believed the soul lived on after death. Plato publicised this belief in his writings circa 400 BC. The writings of the latter influenced the civilised world, including the Jews, during his lifetime and for centuries after that. No less a publication than the Encyclopedia Britannica acknowledges this fact when it said the following: "Traditional Western philosophy, starting with the ancient Greeks...shaped the basic Western concepts of the soul."
Apart from the references to eternal life, of course.kieranwaldron wrote: »When I said in my post that the belief in question was " incorrect ", I mean it contradicts the Bible. There is no statement to be found anywhere in the Bible substantiating the belief that man, or any part of him, is immortal.0 -
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Peregrinus wrote: »Sure. But in that sense all Christian beliefs, without exception, are of pagan origin, aren't they?.
I am not so sure that all of Christian beliefs have a pagan origin but I am certain that a lot of them do have.
[QUOTE=Peregrinus;96725016; Apart from the references to eternal life, of course.[/QUOTE]
Whilst there are references to eternal life or everlasting life in the Bible none of them are given saying man has any immortal element in him during his lifetime; they are all given in the context that eternal life can be attained (ie. gifted by God) if you measure up in the judgement of the dead to come after Jesus Christ returns to the earth.0
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