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Death of ivan cooper

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Was Ivan Cooper from a staunchly Loyalist background?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Was Ivan Cooper from a staunchly Loyalist background?

    Ivan was definitely from an Orange Order background. I was sickened to read an article in the Belfast Telegraph mentioning Ivan and Willie Frazer in the same paragraph. The only commonality is that they were both Protestants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Ivan was definitely from an Orange Order background. .
    Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
    He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
    He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.
    Quite amazing youve managed to turn a thread about ivan cooper into yet another rant about irish republicans


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
    He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

    What did you think of MLKJ's Deomcratic Socialism?

    The History books are already praising McKee

    From Peter Taylors book Provos:

    "By the spring of 1971, the Provisionals' bombing campaign in Belfast City center had got fully under way, although not yet with the savagery later associated with the IRA's murderous car bombs.
    Billy McKee, the Provisionals' Belfast Brigade commander until his arrest on April 15, 1971, insisted that that civilian casualties should be avoided at all costs. To McKee it was a morale question: civilians were non-combatants."

    Later on in the book

    Here's a small bit about the IRA's descion on bombing London in 1973.
    Peter Taylor asks Billy mcKee o on the thought process behind taking the war to England.
    "There had been a dicussion early on about bombing England. I thought we should wait until there was a crisis (in the IRA) before we should start. I agreed with the strategy but I didn't agree with bombing civilians, pubs that were full of people and so forth. I didn't condone that. Blowing up the Houses of Parliament wouldn't have made any difference to me but not ordinary civilians."

    Pretty much how I felt about to.

    The History Books will write with Ivan Cooper withe pride & so they should, he had the guts to stand up to his families horrible ideology just like Ronnie Bunting did a few years after him, they'll both be remembered with fondness.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    What did you think of MLKJ's Deomcratic Socialism?

    The History books are already praising McKee .....Here's a small bit about the IRA's descion on bombing London in 1973..........


    This thread is not about your idols, nor your version of republicanism, nor is it a platform to whitewash history. It is about Ivan Cooper. I’ve said what I wanted to; if you want to discuss bombing campaigns or McKee go off and start another thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    This thread is not about your idols, nor your version of republicanism, nor is it a platform to whitewash history. It is about Ivan Cooper. I’ve said what I wanted to; if you want to discuss bombing campaigns or McKee go off and start another thread.

    Hahahahaha. You're the one who brought McKee up the first place. In my first post in this thread I mentioned nothing about Republicans, the person to do that was you. And it's not "whitewashing" it's a 23 year old book written by one of Britain's most respected journalist. You tried to paint McKee as blood thirsty maniac lusting for innocent blood & you've been debunked several times by in these threads & Peter Taylor.

    And you have no idea what my ideology is. I have more in common with British working class socialists or ordinary people from London, Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow etc... than I do with right-wingers from Dublin or Belfast, certainly more than this neoFascist Irish Nationalist Party, which is a new version of the Democratic Right. Tony Benn remains my political hero, head and shoulders above anyone in Sinn Fein with Ken Livingstone a close second.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ivan Cooper's sort of a hero of mine. He's was the peaceful alternative and if Bloody Sunday hadn't happened his charisma might have been enough to convince people there was a peaceful way out of this. Bloody Sunday changed this because it changed the nature of the discrimination Catholics faced in Northern Ireland. It went from being about voting, housing and jobs to being shot in the street because they tried to assert their right to the aforementioned jobs, housing and voting. This could have been dealt with by prosecution of the soldiers involved but the cover up and subsequent honouring of these men sent out the message that the security forces were the bad guys and that justice wouldn't come peacefully.

    My uncle, Micheal McLaughlin worked with Ivan and Austin Currie and helped set up the first civil rights march.

    Ivan himself summed up the impact of Bloody Sunday better than anyone else could:
    You have destroyed the civil rights movement, and you've given the IRA the biggest victory it will ever have. All over this city tonight, young men... boys will be joining the IRA, and you will reap a whirlwind.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Ivan Cooper had a Unionist heritage and turned his back on it to actively support a peaceful stance against bigotry and sectarianism. He was a noble person, one of a rare breed in the North.
    He was a valued civil rights activist who tried to resolve the inequity by political means and drew inspiration from people like Martin Luther King. He knew that the killings by the British army coupled with the blind arrogance and ignorance of British politicians and judiciary (Widgery) would provide a recruiting platform for the IRA & its splinter groups. And some people did join, in gullible or frustrated herds, lured and fooled by the rhetoric of fossils from a different age. Their twisted logic and attempted self-justification was again recently heard at the funeral of McKee. Unlike them, history will be kind to Cooper, a decent man.

    Why did you bring McKee into the thread?

    Regarding people joining the IRA post bloody Sunday my only offering is that it was unavoidable that people would do that when the peaceful route is destroyed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Ivan Cooper's sort of a hero of mine. He's was the peaceful alternative and if Bloody Sunday hadn't happened his charisma might have been enough to convince people there was a peaceful way out of this. Bloody Sunday changed this because it changed the nature of the discrimination Catholics faced in Northern Ireland. It went from being about voting, housing and jobs to being shot in the street because they tried to assert their right to the aforementioned jobs, housing and voting. This could have been dealt with by prosecution of the soldiers involved but the cover up and subsequent honouring of these men sent out the message that the security forces were the bad guys and that justice wouldn't come peacefully.

    My uncle, Micheal McLaughlin worked with Ivan and Austin Currie and helped set up the first civil rights march.

    Ivan himself summed up the impact of Bloody Sunday better than anyone else could:

    Cooper was all about peaceful protest alright, but he also believed in defending yourself from aggression, which is why he set up the Derry Citizens Action Committee in 1969 after the January 1969 Burntollet ambush in which police helped the loyalists, when they were on a peaceful civil rights march & then the RUC were running into people's homes in the Bogside & the Creggan & nationalist enclave of the Waterside and beat people to a pulp and beat to death 67 year old Francis McCloskey & Sammy Devenny who's young teenage girls were beaten as well.

    Other Defence Committees sprang up in Belfast & Coalisland but the Derry one was by far the best. Thanks mainly due to the organzing skills of Cooper no unwanted thugs entered Free Derry & the barricades were manned 24/7 and there was hardly any crime.

    1972 started with a shooting massacre of innocent people in Derry by the British Army the Para's killed 14 people in the Bogside in January, and it ended with a massacre of innocent people in Derry in December, when the UFF shoot 9 people with a Sterling submachine gun in Annie's Bar Massacre in the Waterside just across the bridge from where the Bloody Sunday massacre happened, now the Sterling was a British Army weapon.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    _blaaz wrote: »
    Death of one of organisers of the civil right march that would desend into what would become known as bloody.sunday

    Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

    Its quite the revionist leap to blame ivan cooper for bloody sunday....your amazing to have managed it


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    _blaaz wrote: »
    Its quite the revionist leap to blame ivan cooper for bloody sunday....your amazing to have managed it

    Just wondering if the 2 ruc men had not been shot in Derry 2 days before Bloody Sunday, or if the March had been postponed for a few weeks as a mark of respect, or if there had been no rioting before firing started, would the day have turned out differently?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    _blaaz wrote: »
    Unlikely given parachutes record across all its tours in NI particularly.the early 70s



    Blaming ivan cooper as your attempting to do is unfairly absorbing the british army of reaponsibilty

    If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    janfebmar wrote: »
    If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?

    Thats no excuse for what they done (if they cant handle it,maybe ahouldnt joined army?)and trying to blame ivan cooper is just.about the stupiest thing ive read in a long time


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    Blaze, you have not answered the question.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    _blaaz wrote: »
    I see little point on answering questions on makey-up.scenarios on a factual forum??

    The opening post referred to him as one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday March, two days after 2 policemen were murdered in the city. I am merely pondering if there would have been fewer casualties, or better still none at all, if matters had been organised better?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    janfebmar wrote: »
    The opening post referred to him as one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday March, two days after 2 policemen were murdered in the city.

    I seen yous post this,time and again...im.failing to see what it has to do with civil rights movement...other than to conflate unionist baiting by linking civil rights to republicanism??

    I am merely pondering if there would have been fewer casualties, or better still none at all, if matters had been organised better?

    Its unlikely,we will ever know....but given record of parachutes record....i doubt it...they killed far more civilans than any other regiment afaik


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    _blaaz wrote: »
    I seen yous post this,time and again...im.failing to see what it has to do with civil rights movement...other than to conflate unionist baiting by linking civil rights to republicanism??




    Its unlikely,we will ever know....but given record of parachutes record....i doubt it...they killed far more civilans than any other regiment afaik

    We know because at peaceful marches, without rioting and without the threat of attacks on security forces, people were not murdered.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    janfebmar wrote: »
    We know because at peaceful marches, without rioting and without the threat of attacks on security forces, people were not murdered.

    And how many of them.were over seen by parachute regiment?


    Your comparing apples and oranges mate


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    _blaaz wrote: »
    And how many of them.were over seen by parachute regiment?

    If they were that bad why riot against them first? Or march only 2 days after the murder of 2 other security force people in the smallish city.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    janfebmar wrote: »
    If they were that bad why riot against them first? Or march only 2 days after the murder of 2 other security force people in the smallish city.

    Thats right ya....blame a few young lads for soldiers shooting em


    Or blame organisers of the peaceful protest for civil rights for soldiers shooting em



    When pointed out the parachutes (and blackwatch) were at root and scene of worst dusturbemces....blame everyone else but them....the worst susturbemces in coalisland through the troubles were in 1995 were parachute regiment were stationes there and took full force of human shield to stop em finishing off killing another unarmed youth after shooting him in stomach


    But ya lets blame the locals for forgien soldiers shooting em,if that is what pleases you


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Mod: This is becoming more suited to politics/current affairs than history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    janfebmar wrote: »
    Tensions were very high in Derry just before Bloody Sunday because two ruc men, one catholic and one protestant, were murdered in Derry only a few days before Bloody Sunday. I wonder if Ivan Cooper could wind back the clock would he have still helped organise the March then , or if it had been postponed for a few weeks would that have made a difference? Or would he have taken steps to try to ensure it did not develop in to a full riot before shooting started?

    Tensions were high long before Bloody Sunday, 39 people were killed in December 1971 alone.
    Including 15 killed in McGurks bar, 4 killed on the Shankill, UUP Senator John Barnhill was the first politican killed in Ireland since the 1920's, a civilian was killed by the Army in Ardoyne. Bombs were going off in Derry & Belfast pretty much every day.
    Tensions were high since the British government introduced internment in August in which 22 people were killed between the 9th - 11th, 17 of them civilians by the British Army & 11 of those from the infamous Ballymurphy massacre, so tensions were no more high or less high on Bloody Sunday.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    janfebmar wrote: »
    The opening post referred to him as one of the organisers of the Bloody Sunday March, two days after 2 policemen were murdered in the city. I am merely pondering if there would have been fewer casualties, or better still none at all, if matters had been organised better?

    Well they took a priest waving a white flag at them in Ballymurphy as provocation and shot him dead, so they didn't need much petrol for the fire, shot 5 at Springhill another 3 in Newry, a deaf mute in Strabane, a 12 year old girl going to church, and I could go on but I wont,
    There would have been a massacre because of the situation created by 50 years of Unionist misrule which helped to create a revolutionary fevour in Nationalist ghetto areas, and the awful handling of the situation by the British government who admitted they had no clue about the country they claimed was apart of their state to govern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭BalcombeSt4


    janfebmar wrote: »
    If they were that bad why riot against them first? Or march only 2 days after the murder of 2 other security force people in the smallish city.

    I love the creative way you use language here, security forces get murdered but Irish people just magically die on Bloody Sunday.

    Ivan Cooper (and a lot of other people on that day) would be spinning in his grave at this cold, heartless epitah of a giant of the NICRA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    Mod: This is becoming more suited to politics/current affairs than history.

    Better still, AH.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    … 39 people were killed…Including 15 …. 4 killed on the Shankill, ….Senator … the first politican …. a civilian was killed b…22 people were killed between the 9th - 11th….
    I really don’t get your fascination with bodycount, not just in this but in the majority of your posts. It has absolutely nothing to do with Ivan Cooper, unless I'm missing something?
    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Better still, AH.

    Nope. Perhaps Creative Writing, because Balcombe is dreaming again when you read this nonsense :-
    Well they took a priest waving a white flag at them in Ballymurphy as provocation and shot him dead.
    Fr. Daly went on to be a bishop and died just a few years ago. Maybe thread should be moved to Paranormal?

    However I do agree that H & H certainly would be better off without this stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,424 ✭✭✭janfebmar


    I love the creative way you use language here, security forces get murdered but Irish people just magically die on Bloody Sunday.

    .

    They were all murdered. I love the way you insinuate thr people that the security force people who were murdered 2 days before Bloody Friday in Derry were not Irish : they were Irish, born on the island of Ireland and were catholic and protestant people. Their murder was planned and advance, and they were shot in the back by people who were dressed as civilians and blended back in the civilian population. Ivan Cooper did not condone any of the murders. In my opinion though he and others should have postponed the March, which turned in to a riot and murder scene.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,789 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    janfebmar wrote: »
    If there were no attacks on security forces, and no riot / missiles thrown, do you still think the troops would have opened fire?

    Yes.

    The Ballymurphy killings by the same regiment six months previous show that they intended to commit murder just because they could.


This discussion has been closed.
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