Do you believe in God?

realdanbreen · 18-10-2019 12:21pm

Apart from those TV Evangelists (dial the number below 1890.... to donate to our church),Has anyone here ever come across a priest, minister etc who came across as being utterly convinced about the existence of God or an afterlife? I'm around a while and have yet to meet one.

storker · 18-10-2019 12:31pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

If you do not understand the ways of this life, you would not understand the reasoning of the next. Anecdotally, we know that inequality is in fact a very good thing as it encourages co-operation e.g. trade. Societies that try to impose equality end up impoverished with everyone attempting to serve only themselves.

Ah...the "God is a neoliberal" argument.

nkl12xtw5goz70 · 18-10-2019 12:44pm

the-island-man wrote: »

As of 2011 there is no formal process. The option was removed from canon law:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/church-defection-website-shuts-due-to-change-in-canon-law-1.1488263

Thanks for the correction.

I wasn't aware of that change.

storker · 18-10-2019 12:52pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

And if your god exists, they set it up that way. They apparently like cancer and worms in children's eyes and so on.

As has been argued elsewhere, either god allows these things to happen or can't prevent them happening. He is either all powerful or all good, but can't be both.

Zubeneschamali · 18-10-2019 1:05pm

storker wrote: »

As has been argued elsewhere, either god allows these things to happen or can't prevent them happening. He is either all powerful or all good, but can't be both.

realitykeeper's position seems to be that these things are for a greater good, encouraging us to be better and overcome the problems.

Encouraging us to be better than the God who caused these issues... strange kind of theology.

storker · 18-10-2019 1:22pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

realitykeeper's position seems to be that these things are for a greater good, encouraging us to be better and overcome the problems.

Encouraging us to be better than the God who caused these issues... strange kind of theology.

Indeed. All the more suspicious since natural selection requires something similar.

nozzferrahhtoo · 18-10-2019 1:27pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Has anyone here ever come across a priest, minister etc who came across as being utterly convinced about the existence of God or an afterlife?

When I was collecting consecrated hosts and performing experiments on them one of the experiments I did was to bring normal and consecrated ones to priests to see if they could identify which was which.

So I met quite a lot of priests in that time. And yes most of them portrayed themselves as utterly convinced, and gave me little reason to doubt them.

We had two priests in my Secondary school in Raheny/clontarf too. One was John and the others name I forget but he was also our French teacher. The former seemed utterly and entirely convinced. Very much so. Though he also liked to invite boys into his office to smoke with him alone. Make of that what you will.

The latter seemed to think it was very funny and for some reason took any excuse, even in French class, to give us the class off to watch Monty Python and the holy Grail. Must have made us watch it 20 times per year. I do not think he was a believer at all.

storker · 18-10-2019 1:41pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

When I was collecting consecrated hosts and performing experiments on them one of the experiments I did was to bring normal and consecrated ones to priests to see if they could identify which was which.

You'll be telling us next that there's no wine in Wine Gums.

Wanderer78 · 18-10-2019 1:42pm

storker wrote: »

You'll be telling us next that there's no wine in Wine Gums.

dont be making such stupid statements, ffs, its even in the name!

Seanachai · 18-10-2019 1:46pm

I don't believe in an overarching personal god, at least not in the conventional sense, I don't see it as a requirement for existence. People can be hung up on the ingrained concept of this god and throw the baby out with the bathwater when it comes to any existence beyond the material world because of anger towards the horrors that can happen here.

Even if we manage to create devices that find other dimensions and evidence of consciousness beyond death, science will probably never give us an explanation as to how everything came from nothing. In my opinion the best interface we have to explore these mysteries is our own consciousness and direct experience, it used to be known as noetic science.

This does involve a level of discipline and devotion that not a lot of people have any time for these days though. Psychedelics are a short cut but they can be dangerous, for some more so than others. It is interesting that there's a high degree of correlation between psychedelic experiences and very little subjects report encountering a personal god, it's more often than not an experience of absolute consciousness that resonates with the Brahman of Hinduism.

There is also the concept of the 'Demiurge' in gnostic teachings which is basically a false reflection of the divine principle, it is held responsible for creating the material universe.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Demiurge

Old Bob gives some good insight on exploring the mysteries in a systematic rather than belief-based fashion.

nozzferrahhtoo · 18-10-2019 2:17pm

storker wrote: »

You'll be telling us next that there's no wine in Wine Gums.

Hell no. I pursue truth, but I would not commit blasphemy

Sure many people would testify to there being wine in there, so I am sure their testimony is evidence.

realitykeeper · 19-10-2019 10:44am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

Again, until you show there IS a next one, you have not shown there is anything to understand. So asserting people do not understand it, is fantasy on your part.

Have you any arguments, evidence, data or reasoning to suggest human experience, subjectivity, or consciousness survives the death of the brain?

Or do you just have more of this "I just know it" to offer?

You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

AndrewJRenko · 19-10-2019 12:31pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

And just to be clear, your 'just and fair God' has no problem with condemning people to an eternal destiny of endless pain, agony and torture just because they happen to be born in a Muslim country or a Sikh country or an atheist family for their few decades - have I got that right?

And same if they happen to be born gay or plan the number of kids in their family or if they are a bit slothful?

Tired Gardener · 19-10-2019 12:51pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

Eternal destiny, what proof do you have of such a thing?

We have proof that we die, and the body decays, we have proof that our thoughts & emotions are a product of the brain. As the brain stops working when we die, and like the rest of the body decays. There is far more evidence to confirm or suggest that this life is all there is.

Extreme claims, require extra ordinary evidence to support their claims. The burden of proof lies with those making claims of eternal destiny.

the_syco · 19-10-2019 3:33pm

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

There is an old saying: There are no atheists in foxholes.

Because only those who who fear their gods judgement, fear death?

Sagats_knee wrote: »

For it is written

So, you believe in Mein Kampf?

Sagats_knee wrote: »

it’s usually referring back to an earlier prophesy

Mein Kampf had a load of prophesies as well...

Sagats_knee wrote: »

He was a prophet and the second King of Israel, chosen by God.

And as god doesn't exist, he's a madman with voices in his head.

Sagats_knee wrote: »

The evidence is all around you in every thing that exists and has ever existed. It’s staring you in the face.

So you claim that God created the black death, war, and the nuclear bombs?

Canis Lupus · 20-10-2019 10:49pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

You're gambling your god is the right one

nozzferrahhtoo · 21-10-2019 7:24am

realitykeeper wrote: »

then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

Pascals Wager essentially, is that really all you have? No evidence, so you basically fear monger people in the hope they will buy what you are selling out of sheer fear.

It is a bad gamble anyway as there is little chance you pick the right god even if there is one. And gods tend to hate false belief more than no belief. For example in the Christian Tales non-believers are mentioned only a few times in passing. Whereas belief int he wrong god, is mentioned in the "big 10" commandments.

Wanderer78 · 21-10-2019 7:30am

realitykeeper wrote:

You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

I'd say there's a good chance there's nothing afterwards, of course I could be wrong, but so could you be, I ll try my best to enjoy life right now though

Seanachai · 21-10-2019 11:09am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Apart from those TV Evangelists (dial the number below 1890.... to donate to our church),Has anyone here ever come across a priest, minister etc who came across as being utterly convinced about the existence of God or an afterlife? I'm around a while and have yet to meet one.

I only knew one Catholic priest who had passionate belief, he was more like a Baptist preacher, he later left the priesthood and went into social work ironically. I have a few relatives who have Catholic faith in god but rubbish anything related to the paranormal, which I find strange.

realdanbreen · 21-10-2019 11:39am

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

I'd like to think I do. Light candles in a church for people that have passed away in my life. And I certainly identify as an Irish Catholic for ethnicity purposes.

Having said that, I'm firmly of the belief that when you die you're absolutely gone. If an afterlife does exist, it makes no sense how anyone would actually know what it's like there.

The church have been responsible for the most heinous crimes against individuals since the state got independence. And suicide bombers are mostly influenced by religion to carry out what they do.

I think I believe in God, but not in religion, while also thinking an afterlife doesn't exist.

Just curious if anyone was a little reluctant to hit no on the poll option just in case!

Dots1982 · 21-10-2019 11:42am

I do believe there’s some higher power because ultimately how does the solar system exist without a creator. Science only explains so much and there can’t be something from nothing according to Science’s rules. Any by some miracle there is something from nothing...

storker · 21-10-2019 11:44am

Dots1982 wrote: »

I do believe there’s some higher power because ultimately how does the solar system exist without a creator. Science only explains so much and there can’t be something from nothing according to Science’s rules. Any by some miracle there is something from nothing...

That would also mean your creator is something from nothing.

storker · 21-10-2019 11:49am

the_syco wrote: »

So you claim that God created the black death, war, and the nuclear bombs?

Don't be silly, God only takes the credit for the good stuff. The bad stuff is never anything to do with him. Supreme being or just common-or-garden politician?

Dots1982 · 21-10-2019 12:01pm

storker wrote: »

That would also mean your creator is something from nothing.

Yes it would. Can’t be explained so.

Seanachai · 21-10-2019 12:09pm

realitykeeper wrote: »

You will die. No arguments there. What comes next will last forever. Even if you think nothing comes next but you don`t know for sure, then you are gambling with your eternal destiny for the sake of a few decades in this life and all because you do not want the discipline the gospels impose.

Tired Gardener wrote: »

Eternal destiny, what proof do you have of such a thing?

We have proof that we die, and the body decays, we have proof that our thoughts & emotions are a product of the brain. As the brain stops working when we die, and like the rest of the body decays. There is far more evidence to confirm or suggest that this life is all there is.

Extreme claims, require extra ordinary evidence to support their claims. The burden of proof lies with those making claims of eternal destiny.

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

realitykeeper's position seems to be that these things are for a greater good, encouraging us to be better and overcome the problems.

Encouraging us to be better than the God who caused these issues... strange kind of theology.

If life after death exists why would it be conditional on conforming to man-made scripture?

We don't even have definitive proof that consciousess itself is local to the brain, it could be, but it's also possible that it's not.

https://qz.com/866352/scientists-say-your-mind-isnt-confined-to-your-brain-or-even-your-body/

This is probably going to sound a bit callous but if life is transitory we're only really passing through here and all suffering is temporary. I know it's little consolation to somebody watching their kid die in a hospital bed, but if there is a designer or creator god they could have just set up reality so it plays out with cause and effect, there's no reason why they would need to micro-manage existence.

In the Hermetic and Eastern traditions this level of reality is one of the lowest, it's a good place to grow but ultimately the aim is to leave permanently and not return through reincarnation.

Vittu · 21-10-2019 12:21pm

If there is an afterlife, it must be a busy spot. When I get there I wonder what property prices will be like.

Canis Lupus · 21-10-2019 12:36pm

Vittu wrote: »

If there is an afterlife, it must be a busy spot. When I get there I wonder what property prices will be like.

and the after life will have an after after life.

Zubeneschamali · 21-10-2019 1:17pm

Seanachai wrote: »

I know it's little consolation to somebody watching their kid die in a hospital bed, but if there is a designer or creator god they could have just set up reality so it plays out with cause and effect, there's no reason why they would need to micro-manage existence.

True, of course - the problem of evil is only a problem if the designer or creator god is supposed to be good.

An evil creator like the demiurge of the Gnostics or an indifferent god who just lit the blue touch paper before the Big Bang and is now standing back are both consistent with child torture etc.

Seanachai · 21-10-2019 2:27pm

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

True, of course - the problem of evil is only a problem if the designer or creator god is supposed to be good.

An evil creator like the demiurge of the Gnostics or an indifferent god who just lit the blue touch paper before the Big Bang and is now standing back are both consistent with child torture etc.

Not if this reality is just a temporary illusion, this is a common tenet in certain traditions and a realisation that ascetics, shamanic practitioners and people using psychedelics often have, it's proposed by scientists too. We often experience horrors in our dreams that are insignificant when we wake, the material world can essentially be viewed as another kind of dreaming.

This is my experience, it's not evidence to convince you but there are disciplines and techniques out there that can help you explore it subjectively. I wouldn't expect anybody to just blindly believe anything.

https://www.bernardokastrup.com/2018/07/introducing-idea-of-world.html

https://psychology.wikia.org/wiki/Maya_(illusion)

The Nal · 21-10-2019 2:48pm

Its very difficult to take religion seriously when you have insanity - genuine insanity - like this still happening.

Parents complain over priest's plans to pay 'exorcism' visits

"He has told parents from Scoil Mhaodhoig Poulfur that he expects them to attend Sunday mass in the run-up to first communion next May and, according to a spokesman for the diocese of Ferns, said he will be "visiting their houses for rosaries and exorcisms".

What a díckhead.

Do you believe in God?

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