Short Handed Cash Games

shaydy · 13-02-2006 3:47pm #1

Just wondering if anyone would like to offer some help/tips on playing short handed cash games. I'm quite new to cash games and have been doing quite well so far but mainly playing on tables of 9.

Sometimes the table will fade away to around 5 or 6 players and once or twice ive been left playing heads up (quite enjoyed that actually), and ive found myself getting super aggressive the less players that are there. I know a more aggressive approach is needed but are there any specifics to watch out for on these short handed tables?

If I were to sit down on a 6 handed table what would your advice to me be?

Any help appreciated.
Shay

ntlbell · 13-02-2006 4:28pm

shaydy wrote:

If I were to sit down on a 6 handed table what would your advice to me be?

Any help appreciated.
Shay

Play the same as when a 9 table fades to 6, open your range up and play more aggresive.

ianmc38 · 13-02-2006 4:35pm

In late position try to see some cheap flops with more marginal hands like lower suited/unsuited connectors.

Don't limp with big hands like AA, KK, AK etc. These are your big money hands and you want to extract as much as possible from other players when you get them.

Don't overbet with big hands. A big mistake alot of smaller limit players make is to jam with the nuts or with monsters. Unless there are big draws on the table, you want to give good pot odds for your opponent to call. I prefer a bet of about 1/3 of the pot. If you overbet, you'll end up chasing people out instead of extracting one or two small bets from a couple of players.

Don't allow cheap cards when there is a draw. If the board is dangerous and you have something like top pair, top kicker or a set, dont slow play it. For example, if there are two to a flush on the board, then you want to make sure your opponent is getting the incorrect odds to call. Now with just pot odds, we're looking at 2-1, but when you factor in the implied odds of him hitting with his draw, then I think a bet of more than the pot is required eg 1.25/1.33 times the pot. Similarly with an openender, we can afford to give him slightly better odds, but still make sure that he's making a mistake by calling you. Dont ever check when you have a made hand on a board that has a big drawing possibility on it, as more often than not your opponent will be more than pelased to take a free card.

Thats all i can think of right now.

cardshark202 · 13-02-2006 5:05pm

ianmc38 wrote:

you want to give good pot odds for your opponent to call.

Nope.

fuzzbox · 13-02-2006 5:09pm

ianmc38 wrote:

In late position try to see some cheap flops with more marginal hands like lower suited/unsuited connectors.

Don't limp with big hands like AA, KK, AK etc. These are your big money hands and you want to extract as much as possible from other players when you get them.

Don't overbet with big hands. A big mistake alot of smaller limit players make is to jam with the nuts or with monsters. Unless there are big draws on the table, you want to give good pot odds for your opponent to call. I prefer a bet of about 1/3 of the pot. If you overbet, you'll end up chasing people out instead of extracting one or two small bets from a couple of players.

Don't allow cheap cards when there is a draw. If the board is dangerous and you have something like top pair, top kicker or a set, dont slow play it. For example, if there are two to a flush on the board, then you want to make sure your opponent is getting the incorrect odds to call. Now with just pot odds, we're looking at 2-1, but when you factor in the implied odds of him hitting with his draw, then I think a bet of more than the pot is required eg 1.25/1.33 times the pot. Similarly with an openender, we can afford to give him slightly better odds, but still make sure that he's making a mistake by calling you. Dont ever check when you have a made hand on a board that has a big drawing possibility on it, as more often than not your opponent will be more than pelased to take a free card.

Thats all i can think of right now.

In this post you say -

1. Dont overbet the pot with big hands
2. Overbet the pot with big hands

Something is a miss I feel.

sprocket1 · 13-02-2006 5:17pm

a quote from a winner on short handed play "I reread the section on playing in late position in Hold-em For Advanced Players by slansky, and all the sudden I was crushing the game. Suddenly my bankroll was at $500"

ianmc38 · 13-02-2006 5:19pm

cardshark202 wrote:

Nope.

Yes, with a monster you want to give your opponent good odds to call on a board with no draws. For example you have the stone cold nuts, be it quads, the nut flush etc. You want to value bet without making it too expesnive for your opponent to call with some sort of hand. Read my post.

ianmc38 · 13-02-2006 5:21pm

fuzzbox wrote:

In this post you say -

1. Dont overbet the pot with big hands
2. Overbet the pot with big hands

Something is a miss I feel.

1. Dont overbet the pot with big hands - When you have a monster on a board with no draws
2. Overbet the pot with big hands - On a board with big draws you want to give your opponent the incorrect odds to call. When implied odds are factored in, a bet larger than the size of the pot is often required for a drawing hand to be making a bad call.

Again read my post and then analyse the context of each comment.

fuzzbox · 13-02-2006 5:27pm

Some general snippets.

Try to incorporate some of the following thoughts:

1. Never open limp.
What does this mean? Opening a pot means that you are the first one in, so if you are the first one to enter the pot, always raise. I find that a pot raise is a good size (3.5x the BB). Often you will win the blinds, and thats a good result.
This serves a few purposes, it gives you a chance to win the blinds, it gives you a chance to buy the button and play in a raised pot in position, and it gives you the best opportunity to win the pot on the flop.

2. Limp small pairs behind limpers. If there are limpers, then its ok to limp with good implied odds hands. Small pocket pairs are great here, if you raise, then you might actually cost yourself money. ... but you might be able to win the pot - I hear you scream - yes this is true - but if you flop a set you might be able to win lots of MONEY. So take a multi-way pot with these hands. Also some SCs are good but you normally should be in position to join in the fray with these hands. (Also suited aces are fine here)

3. Raise limpers with big hands and trash
Consider raising a lot of limpers with both your good hands, some trash hands and some medium trouble hands. You would love to win the pot with your trash and trouble, but you would like to get called with your big strong hands. These hands dont normally perform well in multiway pots so raising narrows the field and gives you a chance to win all those lovely blinds.

4. Learn how to use position.
Position allows you to control the pot size. This is the most difficult to explain. If you have raised preflop, and have 1/2 players still in the pot with you, this is your chance to steal if you have nothing, or check to control the pot, or take a free card. You will need to develop a feel for what sort of flops are stealable, and what sort of flops will get you in trouble.

5. Generate big pots when you have big hands
Play in big pots in position with twopair and better. Try to play smaller pots when out of position with lesser hands (like Top pair).

6. Semi-bluff
Develop a good sense of when to semi-bluff. Semi-bluffing allows you to steal pots on the flop/turn, and adds to your aggressive image, allowing you to get paid off when you hit your big hands (like sets). Play big hands and semi-bluffs the same way. Dont check/call a draw, ... but check/minraise a set. Thats really really obvious. Rather, lead with both, and if raised, PUSH. Note: dont do this with all draws - but select the big ones (12 outs or more).
This will have a dual effect of allowing you to steal lots of pots, and also allowing you to get action on your big hands.

7. Try to figure out your opponents tendencies.
If he is likely to pay you off with top pair - then never semi-bluff him.
If he is likely to fold top pair - then semi-bluff him to death.
You get the idea. Semi-bluffs do not work on calling-stations, but they do work on weak-tighties. Figure out which one of these your opponent is, and play accordingly.

Thats just some general thoughts, make the rest up as you go along.

fuzzbox · 13-02-2006 5:31pm

ianmc38 wrote:

1. Dont overbet the pot with big hands - When you have a monster on a board with no draws
2. Overbet the pot with big hands - On a board with big draws you want to give your opponent the incorrect odds to call. When implied odds are factored in, a bet larger than the size of the pot is often required for a drawing hand to be making a bad call.

Again read my post and then analyse the context of each comment.

Well it wasnt clear what you meant. Thank you for clarifying.

As an aside - I find that overbetting the pot is not a good thing to do with your big hands. Give the draw between 3:1 and 2:1 is fine (half pot to full pot). Most draws are about 4:1 (flush draw/straight draw) on each new card. Some are better, but 3/4 pot is usually good enough to have them making a mistake by calling ... which is what you want.

Furthermore - the best way to prevent them from having appropriate implied odds, is to not pay them off when they hit.

You can further screw up their odds, by checking the river when the draw misses, giving them an opportunity to bluff at the pot, which they will often do, in a desperate attempt to win the pot.

ianmc38 · 13-02-2006 5:35pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Some general snippets.

Rather, lead with both, and if raised, PUSH.

Sorry but I can't see the logic in this. The only hand that will call a push is one that will beat you or has you dominated. Someone may be calling to a better draw. Can't advocate a push here.

fuzzbox · 13-02-2006 5:42pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Sorry but I can't see the logic in this. The only hand that will call a push is one that will beat you or has you dominated. Someone may be calling to a better draw. Can't advocate a push here.

Correct - but I will always have outs. I will also do this with big hands. Thus, you might well fold a lot of hands that are beating me. And if you call, then I will get lucky some of the time (because I have lots of outs).

Let us take the following situation:

Hero has QhJh
Villain has TdTs

Assume its a 5/10 game, because that makes the addition easier, and assume that stacks are about 1000.

Villain raises to 40 in MP, on caller in the CO, and we defend our blind (lets not reflect on whehter this is good or not).

Pot on the flop is 120

Flop
3h 5h 8s
Hero leads for 80, villain decides to protect his hand and makes it 250 to go, co folds, and hero pushes for 1000. Ouch, villain has a really tough spot now.

Lets say that we play this hand 4 times, and each time villain calls, and I have the following array of hands

QhJh
8h9h
55
Ah2h

How much do you think villain wins, by calling every time?

ianmc38 · 13-02-2006 6:23pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Correct - but I will always have outs. I will also do this with big hands. Thus, you might well fold a lot of hands that are beating me. And if you call, then I will get lucky some of the time (because I have lots of outs).

Let us take the following situation:

Hero has QhJh
Villain has TdTs

Assume its a 5/10 game, because that makes the addition easier, and assume that stacks are about 1000.

Villain raises to 40 in MP, on caller in the CO, and we defend our blind (lets not reflect on whehter this is good or not).

Pot on the flop is 120

Flop
3h 5h 8s
Hero leads for 80, villain decides to protect his hand and makes it 250 to go, co folds, and hero pushes for 1000. Ouch, villain has a really tough spot now.

Lets say that we play this hand 4 times, and each time villain calls, and I have the following array of hands

QhJh
8h9h
55
Ah2h

How much do you think villain wins, by calling every time?

You've isolated one hand where you specifically know the villains range.

What if the villain has:

1. A set
2. Top two pair
3. An overpair with a heart
4. A8 hearts
5. AhKh

Show me the expected results on pushing for those ranges and then i may agree with you. Dont have time to even consider now in work...

fuzzbox · 13-02-2006 7:05pm

ianmc38 wrote:

You've isolated one hand where you specifically know the villains range.

What if the villain has:

1. A set
2. Top two pair
3. An overpair with a heart
4. A8 hearts
5. AhKh

Show me the expected results on pushing for those ranges and then i may agree with you. Dont have time to even consider now in work...

The guy raised preflop, he almost never has top two. He might have 33/55/88 but not very often. An overpair with one heart is still put in a very difficult decision. He cannot have Ah8h when you have 8h9h or Ah2h, only when you have QhJh and it happens infrequently enough that you can live with it, same for AhKh.

What about all the times he has AA-99, or AKo...Ax blah, or just two cards that miss, or whatever?

Those times far outweigh those times when he has a specific hand that he can call you with, and you pick up the pot a LOT of those times.

Focusing on the bad times (like he has a set), is ignoring all those other times, when either

A. you pick up the 120 pot on the flop without a fight
B. you pick up the inflated raised pot on the flop when he lays down to your push

This is a lot of times.

Hectorjelly · 14-02-2006 4:45am

fuzzbox wrote:

Some general snippets.

Try to incorporate some of the following thoughts:

snip

Thats just some general thoughts, make the rest up as you go along.

great post

Cianos · 14-02-2006 10:14am

Some great advice there Fuzzbox,

As a general rule you should be playing very ABC poker, right up as far as $400 (or $2/$4). After that things get a bit trickier and require a bit more thought (and less tables).

Never open limp

I would'nt necessarily agree with this. You dont want to be always betting with hands that you would otherwise limp with (unless your preflop range is very tight I suppose). Maybe on the higher stakes tables when deception is more important, but when you are betting under the gun with 88 on a standard-loose table its just asking for too much trouble imo.

The price your paying for deception still isnt worth it. True you get to control the pot and maybe generate some nice pots when you hit big, but in general the cost of following up bets with probably-dominated hands is not really worth it. If you are one/two-tabling and can get a strong feel for all players at the table then this approach is more doable.

fuzzbox · 14-02-2006 10:22am

Cianos wrote:

Some great advice there Fuzzbox,

As a general rule you should be playing very ABC poker, right up as far as $400 (or $2/$4). After that things get a bit trickier and require a bit more thought (and less tables).

I would'nt necessarily agree with this. You dont want to be always betting with hands that you would otherwise limp with (unless your preflop range is very tight I suppose). Maybe on the higher stakes tables when deception is more important, but when you are betting under the gun with 88 on a standard-loose table its just asking for too much trouble imo.

The price your paying for deception still isnt worth it. True you get to control the pot and maybe generate some nice pots when you hit big, but in general the cost of following up bets with probably-dominated hands is not really worth it. If you are one/two-tabling and can get a strong feel for all players at the table then this approach is more doable.

Well thats a function of table-feel. But I open with all pairs for a raise from all positions in most games.

That said - I check a lot of flops that I either hit or miss, especially in position. And I dont always bet full pot on the flop. I bet between half pot and full pot depending on the board texture, and the likelyhood of it hitting my opponent.

So if I raise 88 from UTG, get two callers and the board comes AJ4, well I can just check and fold.

If it comes 744, then I half pot it (I would half pot with AK and 88 and AA and so on)

If it comes A86 two-tone, then Im likely to pot it.

In position, I would probably bet the AJ4 flop if it was checked to me, and play the others the same way. Subtle difference, but important.

Also - remember this is 6-max. So when you open UTG, there are only 3 players behind you, and the blinds are in front of you. Would you open in late middle position with 88 in a full ring game? I believe that *yes* is the answer most often, so you should also open UTG in a full-ring game.

Cianos · 14-02-2006 10:28am

But what are you going to miss out on when both you and your opponent hits, that you would'nt if you had just limped, and your opponent had also limped or even bet?

Most players find it hard to let go of an Ace, so if you are fortunate enough to hit a set when he hits his ace, happy days. Its not necessary to generate the action preflop, and you will also be shutting off weaker aces around the board.

Yes you can steal the pot when the board looks safe, but you can do that anyway. If for example I limp with 88, maybe the button limps also along with the one or two of the blinds, and the flop is 10 high and checked to me I will always bet it because it is unlikely that anyone has the 10.

fuzzbox · 14-02-2006 10:49am

When I open raise with 88, then I am very happy to win the blinds. Its a medium hand, and winning those blinds (1.5 blinds) is a worthwhile endeavour. If somebody wants to play, then I have a hand worth showing down, I can hit a big flop, and I can represent something that I do not have (so if the board came AJ4 and I was against ONE player, then I would bet the flop more often than not).

If I limp, then I cannot win those blinds for free, and I invite others to limp behind me with hands like QT or A5 or so, that have reasonably good equity against me.

If I raise, and somebody calls with a big ace behind me, then I might hit an A8x flop, and I might be able to win a big pot. If not, then I can get away cheap, but over time I win a lot more with this strategy.

If somebody else limps in in front of me, then I am more likely to limp along with my 88, as with multiple players in the pot I want to try to hit a set first and foremost, so I dont mind just taking a flop. That does not mean that I never raise limpers with 88, but that I am more likely to take a flop, hope to hit a set and maybe win a big one.

But I very very rarely open limp, be it 88 or 65s or AK or AA. This is for short handed games only. I rarely open raise from EP in a full ring game. They are different beasts.

Cianos · 14-02-2006 11:52am

Would you do the same with 22?

If your reason is mostly for blind stealing, then fair enough. But other than that on a loose table you are going to be called by a large range of hands, and unless you improve on the flop you are going to find yourself making follow ups and being called a lot more often than you would like.

If you bet utg with 88, a lot of the time you will be called by at least two players. Any flop is going to be a scare flop unless it is 7 high and even then you have to worry about pocket 10's, even sets etc.

If the flop has over card(s), it is then a lottery on whether your low pp is good or not...either way you have to bet for information, as being able to guess without doing so is not giving you enough info.

fuzzbox · 14-02-2006 11:58am

Yes I do the same with 22. In the games I play I do not get 2 callers to a preflop raise very often, and I play pretty tight, so I can effectively represent something good very often (like an Ace on the board). Also, if I do get two callers BEHIND me, then I'm always more careful, than if I get two callers in front of me.

In a much looser game, then tone down your raising full stop. See cheap flops a lot, and bust morons overplaying crap cards. Do this mostly in position.

Like I said, its a function of table texture.

Cianos · 14-02-2006 12:02pm

Agreed.

I can see your strategic approach now. But I would still maintain that betting utg with 22 on tables up to $2/$4 isnt better than limping - generally speaking of course. Table texture can render this false on any stakes.

ianmc38 · 14-02-2006 12:13pm

Open raise with every PP? Quit your jibber-jabber. Thats crazy talk. Even in position I think that limping with 22-66 is far more profitable than to raise. 77/88 I may open raise with when UTG 50% of the time. In late position, I'm raising with these 75% of the time. I dont think open raising from UTG 100% of the time is +EV

Cianos · 14-02-2006 12:14pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Open raise with every PP? Quit your jibber-jabber. Thats crazy talk. Even in position I think that limping with 22-66 is far more profitable than to raise. 77/88 I may open raise with when UTG 50% of the time. In late position, I'm raising with these 75% of the time. I dont think open raising from UTG 100% of the time is +EV

It depends on the opponents and how important the blinds are basically.

fuzzbox · 14-02-2006 12:16pm

ianmc38 wrote:

Open raise with every PP? Quit your jibber-jabber. Thats crazy talk. Even in position I think that limping with 22-66 is far more profitable than to raise. 77/88 I may open raise with when UTG 50% of the time. In late position, I'm raising with these 75% of the time. I dont think open raising from UTG 100% of the time is +EV

How have you come to this conclusion?

Also - there is no need to speak to me like that.

fuzzbox · 14-02-2006 12:20pm

Cianos wrote:

It depends on the opponents and how important the blinds are basically.

Without the blinds, there is no game. The blinds are the reason for the action. Making some sort of winrate like 5 PTBB/100 seems to be a goal. Grabbing close to 1 PTBB with a hand like 22 UTG often, is better than limping in, getting raised in LP, having to check/fold the flop a lot, where you are instead LEAKING PTBBs.

You will still get called, and you will still flop sets, but you will now also be able to win pots with the worst hand, thus increasing your overall winrate.

Nobody said that poker was easy, but its very hard for 22 to cost you significant money if you play this way. You raise pf, you sometimes bet the flop (say 60%-75%), and if called you check/fold unimproved.

The times you win preflop + the times you win on the flop + the times you flop a set in a RAISED pot > the times you lose money on the hand.

Please note that if guys are starting to call you down with 2nd pair and bottom pair, or underpairs, then you shift gears and stop doing this. Rather you then begin to value bet top pair-weak kicker a LOT more. So you keep your opponents guessing.

Cianos · 14-02-2006 12:29pm

Well thats what I meant. In some games the initial value of the blinds is insignificant towards later action, but in others the value of the blinds is guarded a lot more. In looser games where people will call bets off the blinds with any kind of hand (and therefore hit the flop more often), playing for the blinds becomes less valuable than patiently trying to hit a better hand than your loose opponent and extract most value.

ianmc38 · 14-02-2006 12:30pm

fuzzbox wrote:

Also - there is no need to speak to me like that.

I pity the fool that thinks like that.

Cianos · 14-02-2006 12:37pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I pity the fool that thinks like that.

Ehh...

5starpool · 14-02-2006 12:38pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I pity the fool that thinks like that.

Too much B.A. can be bad for you....

fuzzbox · 14-02-2006 12:47pm

ianmc38 wrote:

I pity the fool that thinks like that.

Wonderfully insightful.

Here was me thinking that this thread was about strategic advice for short handed cash games.

When you disagree with me (which is perfectly ok), please support your disagreements with relevant strategic counter-advice. I support my assertions with relevant strategic advice, and when you say something as flippant as "quit your jibber-jabbing. Thats crazy talk", its hardly the most poker-related strategic insight in the world.

Short Handed Cash Games

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