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Now ye're talking - to a Nurse

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Varta wrote: »
    You already know that isn't true. Stop wasting the nurse's time.

    A Junior doctor told me she is called to check blood pressure and put IV lines into drug addicts, the nurses refuse to do it.

    The question wasnt addressed to you so butt out.

    So again, nurses want to be paid more so are they willing to provide basic health care to drug addicts.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    mkdon05 wrote: »
    Do you decide on what medications are prescribed for patients and administer same?

    I've seen the argument that you do 4years in college so deserve pay parity, but there are plenty of people that do 4 year degrees in many disciplines, that doesn't indicate they deserve a certain level of pay.

    I dont claim to know everything a nurse does, so I had a look at gradIreland to see what the work entails:
    Work activities
    Observing and reporting on patients' condition
    providing nursing care, eg preparing for operation, caring for wounds and intravenous infusions
    Recording pulse and temperature
    Administering drugs and other medicines
    Assisting with tests and evaluations
    Providing support to patients and relatives.


    From some of the arguments Iv heard, you'd swear nurses were performing brain surgery. A far cry from the work activities listed above.

    I fully understand that staffing issues are leading busy workdays, but again many people who go to work everyday are overworked and stressed. The factors leading to the stress may be very different but both as valid.

    I personally know a married couple both nurses, they holiday every year, drive a decent car and have 3kids. Far from the poverty line.

    I think most people have encountered great nurses whilst in or visiting a hospital, as in the attention and reassurance they give to patients can be a great comfort in distressing times.
    The majority of the support for nurses would be coming from these people based on the memories of that care. However if you put it to the same people that they will have to increase the tax they pay or have a new tax introduced to cover extra costs in the hse, the support may waver considerably. Its easy to say give the what they want until they realise they will have to pay for it.

    This is going to be a long one sorry….

    Yes nurses decide on what medications are prescribed and administer them. Nurses are the main administrators of medications. Nurses often suggest and ask for medications that they have deemed to be required after assessment of their patient. Nurses know when to hold or titrate certain medications depending on the patients current condition. Nurses can also prescribe medications after doing a course in same. We have pharmaceutical studies in college and we have to know the mechanism of action and rationale for a medication before administration. When doctors don’t know what to chart or what dosage it is usually a nurse telling them. Nurses follow 10 rights of medication and that assures safe and appropriate care.

    There are also plenty of people who do 4 year degree programmes that do not provide life saving care on a daily basis.

    I dont claim to know everything a nurse does, so I had a look at gradIreland to see what the work entails:
    Work activities

    I am going to explain what we do under the heading provided….. however, this still does not give a full picture of what being a nurse entails….

    Observing and reporting on patients' condition and Recording pulse and temperature
    Nurses are a constant in a patient’s care whilst in hospital. They are present 24 hours a day. They assess patient for improvement and deterioration. Seek help from medics and other AHP when required. The create care plans and attempt to ensure that the patient is seen by the appropriate teams. They send referrals and plan for safe discharges from the time of admission.
    Nurses carry out many assessments to enable them to report on a patient’s condition. This includes vital signs which usually consists of heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate and effort of breathing, oxygen saturations, temperature and conscious level. They are basic checks. Depending on area you work in those observations may also include listening to the patient’s chest to ensure things such as a wheeze, oedema or a collapsed lung are improving. Assessing a patient’s heart rhythm (faster, slower, irregular). Carrying out a glasgow coma scale which includes checking a patients pupil size and response, their conscious level and assessing their limbs for weakness etc.
    By carrying out these observations and having the knowledge behind what we are doing we are able to adequately evaluate care provided to prevent deterioration and also observe improvements.

    providing nursing care, eg preparing for operation, caring for wounds and intravenous infusions
    We do prepare patient’s for theatre and other tests. This includes carrying out a full assessment of the patient. We also do a full assessment of patients on admission to a ward. We also look after patients throughout their surgeries, afterwards in recovery and then when back on the wards.
    We assess wound types and treat them. We clean and dress wounds and we provide wound care information to patient’s and their families on discharge. We insert intravenous cannulas and we do draw up, check and administer intravenous medications whilst assessing the patient for improvements on same. We also take and interpret blood results for certain infusions and make suggestions for infusions to be increased, decreased, discontinued or changed.

    Administering drugs and other medicines
    Answered above.

    Assisting with tests and evaluations
    Nurses assist and carry out numerous tests and evaluations. We continually evaluate care for patient’s every shift.

    Providing support to patients and relatives.
    This is a massive part of nursing. Providing patient and family centred care is a massive part of our role. We support patient’s in many ways. We support their physical, social and emotional needs as well as other needs they may have. We assist patients with their physical needs. We help to turn patient’s in bed, transfer them onto chairs, assist them in walking, provide physiotherapy, provide aids they may require for physical needs. We feed them and bathe them.
    We provide social support. Home nurses for one. We ensure they are aware of where to find help if required from a social aspect. We make referrals to relevant AHPs, facilities and community groups. We also provide a listening ear to those that may have no family or friends or those who attend an Emergency department or other service because they are lonely.
    We provide a massive amount of emotional support to every patient we encounter and their family members. We are there to break bad new or present when bad news is broken and we provide support post that. We are there to hold a family members hand or provide a shoulder to cry on or even be a sounding board when required. We support patient’s when they are struggling emotionally whether it’s due to their illness, social circumstances or their mind-frame.

    From some of the arguments Iv heard, you'd swear nurses were performing brain surgery. A far cry from the work activities listed above.

    Nurses are doing so much more than people realise. Nurses are present for brain surgeries and assist in those surgeries. They also care for those patients pre and post those surgeries. I know what you were saying was meant to be flippant but the reality is, nurses ARE doing more than the pitiful list above.
    I have to agree with regards to stress, everyone suffers different stresses and loads of people are overworked. Yes the factors are different and yes the stress people feel is valid. The unfortunate truth is that we are caring for people and responsible for people’s lives. Many people are lucky that their stress is different.

    That is great for that couple you mention. I hope to be in that position in the next 10-15 years. I do drive a decent car…. I have a long commute so I think that is something worthy of my money.

    As for support from the public, perhaps you are right but I feel people would be happy to know they would receive quality care from adequate nursing staff when they require it.
    I do disagree as to what you said about support based on memories of care. Many patient’s have been out on the picket lines or have been supporting us. They are currently experiencing what is going on within hospitals. It is not yet just a memory to them.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    jlm29 wrote: »
    I suppose I could mention that other health professionals get no remuneration whatsoever for clinical placement, although they would work quite independently on later placements, they buy their own uniforms, and are often placed very far from home or college so they may pay rent in two areas for a couple of months.

    And on the other point, I know that many ahps would much rather not work 9-5, and would like the flexibility associated with working evenings and weekends, but it isn’t permitted.

    I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying, just giving the other side!

    Thank you for providing the other side, I welcome that input. :)

    We would love is AHPs were working shift work with us. It would actually lead to reduced workload for many nurses. It is also great to have AHPs for advice and support when we require it.
    jlm29 wrote: »
    This is lovely to read. Thank you

    Thanks Jim29 :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1 frostlaw


    I have a huge amount of respect for nurses. I couldn't do your job, and I absolutely think you deserve to be well paid.

    With that said, I remember the last nurses strike at the end of 2015. Emergency department nurses were going to go out on strike to apparently improve things for their patients. They wanted overcrowding to be addressed, more resources and better conditions, all very admirable goals.

    But the deal they settled with the government ended up being for extra annual leave, which just exacerbates the situation and increases staff shortages. It felt really disingenuous, that it was never actually about the patients at all.

    This is just an outside perspective though, potentially skewed by how the media reported it. You said you were an ED nurse yourself, what did you think about the 2015 strike and the deal that was struck? Have I got it wrong?


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    I agree that nurses are underpaid. Is understaffing a big problem? My understanding is that that is the primary driver of a lot of problems. Will a pay rise for those that are staffed make this worse?

    Hi Ronin Magnificent Crucifix,

    When we are saying we are understaffed we are not lying unfortunately. Under-staffing is a massive massive issue. It is evident by the amount the HSE pays for agency staff. Most hospitals pull staff from one area to another. Some wards have one permanent staff nurse on a shift with 2 students. That is stressful for the nurse as student nurses cannot do intravenous medications or administer medication alone. The nurse also has to run the ward. It is also incredibly stressful for the student nurses as yes they are getting massive experience having their own patient caseload and responsibilities but where is their support and guidance in that situation. I think if nurses were better staffed this strike action would never have come about to be honest. We need the short staffing fixed. Yes it means there are shifts available for those nurses who want to work extra shifts every month but it also means wards are short and nurses are continually overworked.

    When I first qualified we had empty beds when we walked in on shift and when we left. There were adequate nurses. But patient caseloads have increased massively. There are extra patients put onto wards on trolleys. The nurse to patient ratio has increased and more nurses would help all of that. I honestly don't think there are any services fully staffed. Maybe I am wrong but I don't think there are.


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  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    Soulsun wrote: »
    Have you ever pulled in coppers?

    That would be telling... but yes :pac::p
    Water John wrote: »
    AMA thanks for doing this. Understand it well with nurses in the family.
    Those looking at the wage issue should read the following in full:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2019/0209/1028490-nurses-pay/

    You are welcome and I hope your family members are all keeping their chins up right now.... it is difficult at times!

    Thank you for linking that :)


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    Pussyhands wrote: »
    1. A 10% increase in pay isn't going to make nurses have so much more disposable income that renting in Dublin isn't an absolute pain, just like the rest of us.

    2. If wages were increased so that it wasn't a pain and people still had loads of money after rent, then house prices and rent would just go up.
    Pussyhands wrote: »
    I graduated a few years ago and I moved to Dublin earning 23k. I rented and rent was insanely high then too. I saved 6k in one year while running a car, going out, buying clothes etc.

    This is not a pay problem, that's a you problem.

    You graduated a few years ago. I lived in Dublin for more than a few years. When I first qualified I could afford extortionate rent but not have much of a social life. Then rent reduced and I could afford a social life and holidays and enjoyed myself instead of studying. Then rents increased and so did the cost of living and I am back to being able to afford my rent and bills but no holidays and no nights out. That is fine, I can deal with being broke once I can afford my rent and bills.

    I cannot save and yes that is a me problem. I could move back to Dublin, pay a much higher rent and get rid of my car and diesel.... But i would be paying more than i am now!

    Another thing to add to this is my husband is a public servant and earns just over half of what I earn but his net pay works out good compared to mine each month.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    _Brian wrote: »
    I think a few things discredit the pay demand.

    Is a pay rise or pay restoration, they are different things and casually switching between both shows vagueness.

    The pay quoted never includes allowances for unsocial shifts, it’s part of the job and pay, shownthe real figures.

    Nurses coming out of training now have no complaints, is pay not the same if even better then when they started to train? If they weren’t happy they shouldn’t have chosen it as a career.

    I totally agree with what you are saying. Pay restoration for nurses would bring us in line with our AHPs. So yes it would be a pay rise but restoration would amount to approx 3000 extra per year.

    Most of the quoted pay I have seen is bull to be quite honest. Nurses earning 50k a year? I wont be at 50k even if I am a nurse 15 years. It is also made out that we earn that much gross. There is an article linked above on page 8 or 9 that outlines all nurses/midwives pay. All our pay scales, allowances etc are publicly available. The pay slips that have been released show real wages earned and include what you have mentioned above.

    It is not true that you say newly qualified nurses have no complaints. For the responsibility and accountability that is now expected of newly qualified nurses they do not get paid near enough. When I qualified you always had seniors on the ward, not as many patients and less autonomy. It is different now. Nurses have upskilled and are expected to carry out more tasks now than they were 10 years ago.

    I never ever looked at how much a nurse earned when I chose it on my CAO. I assume at 17 or 18 years of ago neither do many choosing it. Also, I now know many nurses who are graduating and leaving nursing altogether. I also know senior nurses leaving nursing for careers in teaching, law and accounting. When I first qualified that was something I never heard of.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    Varta wrote: »
    I think that people need to realise that this is a legacy issue. Back the years when teachers and other PS were regularly striking for better pay, nurses were under the cosh of nuns in the hospitals. They were expected to work and behave like novices and under no circumstances would they be permitted to complain about pay and conditions. As a result they were left behind in relation to other areas of the PS. Personally, I believe they should be raised to the same basic pay rate as teachers.

    This is the 2nd stirike by nurses in 100 years. So well said Verta. You are absolutely correct in what you say. Nursing is so different nowadays.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    tretorn wrote: »
    Is it true that nurses wont insert take blood pressure readings or insert IV lines into drug addicts.

    Do they just refuse and call on Junior Doctors who are already run off their feet to do this work.
    Varta wrote: »
    You already know that isn't true. Stop wasting the nurse's time.
    hawkelady wrote: »
    Utter tripe .... they may try to get it in 2or 3 times and if they can’t , then they will call someone else to try .. but that’s just common practice. Please stop wasting everyone’s time with foolish anti nurse questions

    As varta and Hawkelady stated this is untrue. In fact it is completely untrue. Nurses absolutely do blood pressures and insert IV lines on ANYONE that needs them. I have to say though, Hawkelady is kinds right and wrong... We do attempt and will call doctors sometimes, however, we would generally call another nurse!! Nurses are pros at lines! We are so used to doing it.

    I used to absolutely get great pleasure out of getting a line into someone when their veins were really bad or someone else couldn't. I genuinely always felt like I had just made a difference to that person. Drug addicts or not they still deserve to be treated and cared for as well as you would care for someone who had never every touched drugs.


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  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    I feel the untold story of the current nurses strike is agency nurses.

    How does it feel as a hse nurse to work along side an agency nurse that is paid more money than you.

    Do you feel you could kill off the agency nurse trade with a pay rise requested by the unions at the moment.

    I personally feel no resentment towards an agency nurse despite them sometimes earning triple what I am without the responsibility that I have. Agency nurses are helping you out when you are short of your own nurses so you are just thankful that they are there.

    Some wards and departments have agency nurses that work there on full time hours..... that proves that more staff are required when an agency nurse can work in the same area week after week, month after month.

    I would say there will always be room for agency nurses but I do think there is massive spending on agency nurses AND doctors. I think if nurses/doctors could be encouraged to join the HSE instead then that would reduce the agency costs and I think that could happen with pay.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Mocadonna


    Nurses get an allowance for working in a specialist area where particular knowledge and skills are required. Paid post grads where you still work full time and pay back time following completion of the post grad. How much is overtime? only asking, because anywhere I work it is just paid as normal hourly rate unless it includes unsociable hours which are also paid as normal. I have never ever in 10 years been able to work up time off by working nights.... and i did a LOT of nights. We have the same pension as every other public servant unless, once again, you know something more than I do despite paying into my pension.

    Does this not acknowledge that the skills required deserve higher pay? As has been asked before do you think it is fair that nurses still claim this allowance and all other entitlements that the AHPs don't have access to while earning the same base salary? If so, why? I don't have a dog in this fight, just interested to hear your perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,572 ✭✭✭khaldrogo


    I will just put this out there again as most probably didn't see it.


    My wife was responsible for 12 women AND 12 babies EVERY shift. Not one of the people on here suggesting in some way or other that nursing is not that bad etc wouldn't last an hour under conditions like that.


    Lastly, I had a burst lip many years ago. A doctor in Harcourt St stitched it. It never healed probably and I was left with scar tissue and a lump on my lip.

    I had a burst lip maybe 10 yrs ago and the head nurse in James A&E stitched it and you wouldn't know it was ever there.

    A nurse with 20+ yrs of experience would run rings around a junior doctor.
    They deserve more staff at the very least.


  • Registered Users Posts: 229 ✭✭Mr.Maroon


    Nurses absolutely do blood pressures and insert IV lines on ANYONE that needs them.

    Is it different on the Wards?
    I've never had an IV line put in by a nurse or a phlebotomist when I'm an inpatient.
    It's always been done by a doctor.

    On a side note - it really annoys me how a phlebotomist won't take blood from a picc line.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    ANPs are great and very skilled but they certainly don't do everything that most doctors do in ED.

    Sorry thomasdylan, I should have clarified my point further with regards to my comment when i said MOST doctors.

    Many SHOs learn suturing, casting, splinting etc by working alongside an ANP who is willing to teach. ANPs may not look after neck injuries or head injuries which is the only thing I can think of that they don't do but please note that those ANPs sometimes assist the triage or resus nurses and do assist, assess and manage those injuries in a nursing role, not so much an ANP role.

    Yes absolutely some senior SHOs, registrars and consultants do more than an ANP but please try to remember I used to be a senior Emergency nurse who worked many many many shifts over my years there and witnessed what ANPs did compared to the doctors.

    I just want to add that I think doctors working in Emergency medicine are some of the best doctors there are but some doctors are just there to do their rotation and don't wish to do the same amount as an ANP


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    tretorn wrote: »
    A Junior doctor told me she is called to check blood pressure and put IV lines into drug addicts, the nurses refuse to do it.

    The question wasnt addressed to you so butt out.

    So again, nurses want to be paid more so are they willing to provide basic health care to drug addicts.

    Hopefully your friend has more respect for nurses in work than she has shown by telling you lies by the way. I didn't see this comment before I replied to your previous comment. Have a read of that and it may make you see that nurses ARE willing to provide basic AND advanced care to everyone.

    Also, I personally, in 10 years have seen doctors doing blood pressure a handful of times. All Emergency doctors in resus usually. That is not to say they don't do them, just that a nurse does when a nurse is around. Also, I should say that I am talking about the hospital setting and not including GPs in that statement.... they all do their own BPs as far as I am aware :)

    Also, I wonder if your friend has done an emergency rotation yet? If not ask her who does all the blood pressures and bloods at triage? The nurses are the ones who do all that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,080 ✭✭✭marketty


    Are nurses leaving faster than they can be replaced? And not replaced by new inexperienced personnel, but nurses of equivalent experience? Of the nurses who graduate from 3rd level each year, approx what percentage take up graduate roles in the HSE?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    I will ask her, she is continually being called to look after the junkies because she cant refuse to treat them unlike the nurses.

    Why do you think nursing as a group can decide they dont have to abide by the terms f a pay agreement all Public Servants signed up to.

    Do you realise that if you get your rise then everyone above and below you is going to demand a pay rise too. Where do you think the money is going to come from to pay thousands of nurses, the bad as well as the good.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    frostlaw wrote: »
    I have a huge amount of respect for nurses. I couldn't do your job, and I absolutely think you deserve to be well paid.

    With that said, I remember the last nurses strike at the end of 2015. Emergency department nurses were going to go out on strike to apparently improve things for their patients. They wanted overcrowding to be addressed, more resources and better conditions, all very admirable goals.

    But the deal they settled with the government ended up being for extra annual leave, which just exacerbates the situation and increases staff shortages. It felt really disingenuous, that it was never actually about the patients at all.

    This is just an outside perspective though, potentially skewed by how the media reported it. You said you were an ED nurse yourself, what did you think about the 2015 strike and the deal that was struck? Have I got it wrong?

    You have gotten it pretty right actually.

    This is probably the most honest I will be on here. I left the union in 2015. I was a Rep at the time and I did not agree with the person in charge of the union at the time. In a room of 54 nurses and midwives 51 of us wanted to strike. We were told it was not an option and it was as simple as that. I rejoined the union once he left and I am glad I did. Phil appears to be an amazing amazing woman who really is on the side of the nurses.

    At that meeting I stood up and spoke about how bad things were, I was told that all EDs had gotten new CNM1s and we should be happy. The issue with that is CNM1 positions filled nurses positions but those nursing positions were not filled. That was the answer I got when I stood up and said I wished to leave nursing, that my colleagues literally feared for our patients and our pin on every single shift. There was no compassion or empathy seen.

    The thing is, it was said that there was a 75% vote for the public pay agreement at the time but I also remember there being a lot of people questioning that number.

    We got 2 days extra annual leave a year at the time which is generally used towards our 4 day weeks which is where we do an extra shift every 4-6 weeks.

    We were assured then that recruitment and retention was main priority and to be honest, if the vote really was 75% I believe it is because this was believed but that was a promise that remains broken. We were assured that more hospital beds would be made available and better conditions would come about within all emergency departments. Since then trolley numbers have increased massively everywhere and nurses are shorter on the ground than ever.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    This is going to be a long one sorry….

    Yes nurses decide on what medications are prescribed and administer them. Nurses are the main administrators of medications. Nurses often suggest and ask for medications that they have deemed to be required after assessment of their patient. Nurses know when to hold or titrate certain medications depending on the patients current condition. Nurses can also prescribe medications after doing a course in same. We have pharmaceutical studies in college and we have to know the mechanism of action and rationale for a medication before administration. When doctors don’t know what to chart or what dosage it is usually a nurse telling them. Nurses follow 10 rights of medication and that assures safe and appropriate care.

    There are also plenty of people who do 4 year degree programmes that do not provide life saving care on a daily basis.



    I dont claim to know everything a nurse does, so I had a look at gradIreland to see what the work entails:
    Work activities

    I am going to explain what we do under the heading provided….. however, this still does not give a full picture of what being a nurse entails….

    Observing and reporting on patients' condition and Recording pulse and temperature
    Nurses are a constant in a patient’s care whilst in hospital. They are present 24 hours a day. They assess patient for improvement and deterioration. Seek help from medics and other AHP when required. The create care plans and attempt to ensure that the patient is seen by the appropriate teams. They send referrals and plan for safe discharges from the time of admission.
    Nurses carry out many assessments to enable them to report on a patient’s condition. This includes vital signs which usually consists of heart rate, blood pressure, respiratory rate and effort of breathing, oxygen saturations, temperature and conscious level. They are basic checks. Depending on area you work in those observations may also include listening to the patient’s chest to ensure things such as a wheeze, oedema or a collapsed lung are improving. Assessing a patient’s heart rhythm (faster, slower, irregular). Carrying out a glasgow coma scale which includes checking a patients pupil size and response, their conscious level and assessing their limbs for weakness etc.
    By carrying out these observations and having the knowledge behind what we are doing we are able to adequately evaluate care provided to prevent deterioration and also observe improvements.

    providing nursing care, eg preparing for operation, caring for wounds and intravenous infusions
    We do prepare patient’s for theatre and other tests. This includes carrying out a full assessment of the patient. We also do a full assessment of patients on admission to a ward. We also look after patients throughout their surgeries, afterwards in recovery and then when back on the wards.
    We assess wound types and treat them. We clean and dress wounds and we provide wound care information to patient’s and their families on discharge. We insert intravenous cannulas and we do draw up, check and administer intravenous medications whilst assessing the patient for improvements on same. We also take and interpret blood results for certain infusions and make suggestions for infusions to be increased, decreased, discontinued or changed.

    Administering drugs and other medicines
    Answered above.

    Assisting with tests and evaluations
    Nurses assist and carry out numerous tests and evaluations. We continually evaluate care for patient’s every shift.

    Providing support to patients and relatives.
    This is a massive part of nursing. Providing patient and family centred care is a massive part of our role. We support patient’s in many ways. We support their physical, social and emotional needs as well as other needs they may have. We assist patients with their physical needs. We help to turn patient’s in bed, transfer them onto chairs, assist them in walking, provide physiotherapy, provide aids they may require for physical needs. We feed them and bathe them.
    We provide social support. Home nurses for one. We ensure they are aware of where to find help if required from a social aspect. We make referrals to relevant AHPs, facilities and community groups. We also provide a listening ear to those that may have no family or friends or those who attend an Emergency department or other service because they are lonely.
    We provide a massive amount of emotional support to every patient we encounter and their family members. We are there to break bad new or present when bad news is broken and we provide support post that. We are there to hold a family members hand or provide a shoulder to cry on or even be a sounding board when required. We support patient’s when they are struggling emotionally whether it’s due to their illness, social circumstances or their mind-frame.

    From some of the arguments Iv heard, you'd swear nurses were performing brain surgery. A far cry from the work activities listed above.

    Nurses are doing so much more than people realise. Nurses are present for brain surgeries and assist in those surgeries. They also care for those patients pre and post those surgeries. I know what you were saying was meant to be flippant but the reality is, nurses ARE doing more than the pitiful list above.
    I have to agree with regards to stress, everyone suffers different stresses and loads of people are overworked. Yes the factors are different and yes the stress people feel is valid. The unfortunate truth is that we are caring for people and responsible for people’s lives. Many people are lucky that their stress is different.

    That is great for that couple you mention. I hope to be in that position in the next 10-15 years. I do drive a decent car…. I have a long commute so I think that is something worthy of my money.

    As for support from the public, perhaps you are right but I feel people would be happy to know they would receive quality care from adequate nursing staff when they require it.
    I do disagree as to what you said about support based on memories of care. Many patient’s have been out on the picket lines or have been supporting us. They are currently experiencing what is going on within hospitals. It is not yet just a memory to them.

    I dont know what you mean by the royal We but you certainly cant be claiming that all nurses are as good as you.

    My elderly relative spent weeks in a hospital after hip surgery and none of the nurses helped him walk. None of them helped him with toiletting either, they put a nappy on him so when he finally left hospital he was incontinent. He was also underweight because the food which was vile was left in front of him and he couldnt eat it, there were lots of nurses around but they all seemed to spend their days stuck on computers. The physical care of the patients, eg changing bed sheets etc was done by the carers, thats my impression anyway.

    I did notice most of the nurses were overweight, is that from the shiftwork and the very unhealthy food available in the canteen.

    And, no, none of the nurses I came across after the seven weeks my relly spent in hospital provided any emotional support to me. I made a complaint about something that upset my relative a great deal and the nurse manager said I will take iton board. She never came back to me about it so I made a complaint to the Patient advocacy service. I was told I had to put the complaint in writing but who is going to do that when their elderly relative in a sitting duck in the care of these professionals.


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  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    jlm29 wrote: »
    And as for the ones in other clinical areas. They seem to do nothing!

    :pac::pac::pac:


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    Mocadonna wrote: »
    Does this not acknowledge that the skills required deserve higher pay? As has been asked before do you think it is fair that nurses still claim this allowance and all other entitlements that the AHPs don't have access to while earning the same base salary? If so, why? I don't have a dog in this fight, just interested to hear your perspective.

    Hi Mocadonna,

    Interesting question and it is something I must ask about. Some AHPs work in specialist areas such as physios and medical social workers. Some also do on call work which means they receive more than basic salary.... but I am wondering if the physios who work in areas such as ICU or a stoke ward receive any extra as they should as they are specialist areas which may require a different skill set to other physios. My aim for Monday will be to ask as it's is something I would like to know. Thank you for asking this :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Sorry thomasdylan, I should have clarified my point further with regards to my comment when i said MOST doctors.

    Many SHOs learn suturing, casting, splinting etc by working alongside an ANP who is willing to teach. ANPs may not look after neck injuries or head injuries which is the only thing I can think of that they don't do but please note that those ANPs sometimes assist the triage or resus nurses and do assist, assess and manage those injuries in a nursing role, not so much an ANP role.

    Yes absolutely some senior SHOs, registrars and consultants do more than an ANP but please try to remember I used to be a senior Emergency nurse who worked many many many shifts over my years there and witnessed what ANPs did compared to the doctors.

    I just want to add that I think doctors working in Emergency medicine are some of the best doctors there are but some doctors are just there to do their rotation and don't wish to do the same amount as an ANP


    I'm experienced in ED. I do think ED nurses are fantastic but if you're saying ANPs do everything some doctors do you're misrepresenting both jobs. My experience is that ANPs generally saw patients with sprains, fractures and suturing that could be turned around and sent home. I'd far rather an ANP suture me or put a backslab on than an SHO (or Reg often) because they do it more often and are better.

    But the ANP will only see a relatively small proportion of patients. The septic patient at triage, the seizure, the suicide attempt or overdose, the chest pain, the acutely unwell coming straight in to resus, the abdo pain they're all managed by doctors in every one of the places I have worked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭tretorn


    Providing support to patients and relatives.
    This is a massive part of nursing. Providing patient and family centred care is a massive part of our role. We support patient’s in many ways. We support their physical, social and emotional needs as well as other needs they may have. We assist patients with their physical needs. We help to turn patient’s in bed, transfer them onto chairs, assist them in walking, provide physiotherapy, provide aids they may require for physical needs. We feed them and bathe them.
    We provide social support. Home nurses for one. We ensure they are aware of where to find help if required from a social aspect. We make referrals to relevant AHPs, facilities and community groups. We also provide a listening ear to those that may have no family or friends or those who attend an Emergency department or other service because they are lonely.
    We provide a massive amount of emotional support to every patient we encounter and their family members. We are there to break bad new or present when bad news is broken and we provide support post that. We are there to hold a family members hand or provide a shoulder to cry on or even be a sounding board when required. We support patient’s when they are struggling emotionally whether it’s due to their illness, social circumstances or their mind-frame.

    This is the bit thats most fanciful.

    I think you are watching too much Call the Midwives. Theres no such thing as a bad midwife in that programme but its just a drama.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    Mr.Maroon wrote: »
    Is it different on the Wards?
    I've never had an IV line put in by a nurse or a phlebotomist when I'm an inpatient.
    It's always been done by a doctor.

    On a side note - it really annoys me how a phlebotomist won't take blood from a picc line.

    Nurses do most the bloods and lines in an ED. On the ward I first worked on the nurses did bloods and lines there too. I would assume that most wards do but I wonder if it is all junior staff (who aren't trained) on a ward or if the nurses are overworked and doing a line or bloods would prevent other nursing care that is required thus needing a doctor to do it?

    As far as I am aware in any of the hospitals I have worked in phlebotomists just do bloods and not lines but I do realise that could differ in other hospitals. I know some PICCs are too small to withdraw bloods from. In hospitals I have worked in they will generally take from PICCs but again it is not the same everywhere. Just to note, if blood can be drawn from the PICC then a nurse should be doing that to prevent a patient from being pricked when it is not required.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,818 ✭✭✭jlm29


    Hi Mocadonna,

    Interesting question and it is something I must ask about. Some AHPs work in specialist areas such as physios and medical social workers. Some also do on call work which means they receive more than basic salary.... but I am wondering if the physios who work in areas such as ICU or a stoke ward receive any extra as they should as they are specialist areas which may require a different skill set to other physios. My aim for Monday will be to ask as it's is something I would like to know. Thank you for asking this :)

    I’ll save you a job. They don’t! There’s three payscales for physios (4 I suppose, including management), staff grade, senior, and clinical specialist. There’s no allowances for extra training or qualifications over and above these pay scales, and to be honest, pitifully few opportunities to get off of the staff grade scale, regardless of extra training.
    Physios do get paid for working weekends, but it isn’t much after tax, as I know you’ve pointed out about your colleagues doing extra shifts, and in general they have to work 12 days in a row when doing weekends.
    It’s the same for all other AHPs. This is the main reason that you’ll find many AHPs find the word parity objectionable, it’s because it swings both ways, but you won’t hear that in the media!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 45 Mocadonna


    Hi Mocadonna,

    Interesting question and it is something I must ask about. Some AHPs work in specialist areas such as physios and medical social workers. Some also do on call work which means they receive more than basic salary.... but I am wondering if the physios who work in areas such as ICU or a stoke ward receive any extra as they should as they are specialist areas which may require a different skill set to other physios. My aim for Monday will be to ask as it's is something I would like to know. Thank you for asking this :)

    Thanks for answering! I suppose my main issue as an outsider, and having just looked at the salaries on the HSE website is that a nurse working with an OT gets an allowance of 3700 (I know OT is an outlier on this but the pay claim is to be made equal with all AHPs). This would mean with the 12% increase there would be potential for the nurse to be earning more than an OT. Or have I misunderstood? Even if they are earning the same do you think it is justified?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    Mr.Maroon wrote: »
    Is it different on the Wards?
    I've never had an IV line put in by a nurse or a phlebotomist when I'm an inpatient.
    It's always been done by a doctor.

    On a side note - it really annoys me how a phlebotomist won't take blood from a picc line.

    ED nurses will take care of all phlebotomy and cannulas unless it particularly difficult and maybe needs to be done under ultrasound.

    There was an agreement between the nursing union and the government in about 2015 or so on 'Transfer of Tasks' which basically meant that nurses were going to be mostly responsible for phlebotomy, cannulas and first dose antibiotics (though only a few hospitals were still having doctors give first dose antibiotics back then). But so far there's been inconsistent enough uptake of nurses in some hospitals and wards doing phlebotomy and cannulas. Some places are great, some places the intern is still doing a lot if them.


  • Company Representative Posts: 71 Verified rep I'm a Nurse - AMA


    I'm experienced in ED. I do think ED nurses are fantastic but if you're saying ANPs do everything some doctors do you're misrepresenting both jobs. My experience is that ANPs generally saw patients with sprains, fractures and suturing that could be turned around and sent home. I'd far rather an ANP suture me or put a backslab on than an SHO (or Reg often) because they do it more often and are better.

    But the ANP will only see a relatively small proportion of patients. The septic patient at triage, the seizure, the suicide attempt or overdose, the chest pain, the acutely unwell coming straight in to resus, the abdo pain they're all managed by doctors in every one of the places I have worked.

    Yes they do generally look after minor injuries and yes I would agree I would choose an ANP most of the time myself!!

    Those ANPs still help out on the floor when required and still assess and provide care for patient's you have mentioned though. Also there are ANPs who work in triage and do all that you mentioned above. I have worked in 2 departments. One where the ANPs do deal with minor cases and one where there is a triage ANP who deals with all you mentioned above except the acutely unwell. As far as I am concerned we need ANPs for minor injuries but we could do with more RAT ANPs in Ireland also.

    A lot of SHOs I worked with over the years would not have looked after many of the above as there was usually registrars who took the sicker cases. Of course there are some exceptional SHOs who generally want to be an emergency medic and thrive in resus but then there are those that cherry pick the minor cases and pretend resus does not exist!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 25,993 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    There's been a couple of mistruths by your union that have been glossed over in the public discourse.

    That this is restoration, not an increase.

    That most public servants have been getting two pay increases a year since 2015 (including an increment)

    That there is a retention issue, when both dper and the pay commission have published evidence to the contrary.

    The nurses appear to be fairly bulletproof in the public discourse, do you worry we would be repeating the mistakes of the past by conceding this remarkable claim?


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