Running a marathon with no specific trainng

brianon · 13-11-2007 1:32pm #1

Ok. So I have wanted to run a marathon for a few years now. Trained one year for 5 months only to get injured two weeks beforehand

As much as I still want to run a marathon I a) could not go through that training again. b) do not want to do that type of training as I don't think it is what my body needs. I want to be fast over 10 metres, not 10 miles. c) I don't have the time to commit to a marathon specific training schedule.

The training I do now is ...
MEBB (Max Effort Black Box). Crossfit Mon, Wed, Fri. Olympic Weights (Tue, Thurs, Sat). Rest Sun. A bit of indoor soccer and some extra indoor rowing also + bits n' pieces. I am reasonably fit but no commando.

Do people think its possible to run a marathon (the 2008 Connemara marathon) on 6th April 2008 without doing the training for it

?
My plan would be to alter my training ... slightly ... to allow for some more running/distance running and thats it. I reckon I could run for 2 hours if I had to tomorrow but as for 26.2 miles ... no way.

I basically want to get super fit

to the point I could run a marathon without running mega mileage and destroying my knees in the process. Maybe one long run each of 10/12.5/15/17.5/20/22.5 between now and March.

What do people think ?

Cheers,
Brian.

Dragan · 13-11-2007 1:46pm

I reckon it could maybe be done, through the correct manipulation of certain training styles.....however nothing prepares you for an action like doing that action.

Also, and i will lay money on this, if you run a marathon with no previous long distance running under your belt your going to hurt, really bad.

And i mean really, really bad. Also, your injury potential mid event will be through the roof.

justsomebloke · 13-11-2007 1:50pm

I would suggest moving/repost this thread to the marathon / triathlon forum under sports

copacetic · 13-11-2007 1:52pm

why do one if you don't want to/can't do the training? It won't be enjoyable in the least and if you can't get through the training without getting injured you are pretty much certain to get injured on the day of the marathon. The reason there is so much mileage is to support the long runs so you don't get injured during them.

also the conemara is a relatively hard one anyway.

shanksmare · 13-11-2007 1:52pm

brianon wrote: »

I basically want to get super fit to the point I could run a marathon without running mega mileage and destroying my knees in the process.

you are more likely to damage your knees by running one without training correctly.
If you are prepared to do the 6 long runs you mention, why not just do twice this with a a couple of short faster runs each week in between the long runs.

12 weeks of stepping up your long runs should suffice.

Do you just want to get around the disatnce or do you have a time in mind?

Make sure you have a good pair of runners.

g'em · 13-11-2007 1:54pm

jsb wrote: »

I would suggest moving/repost this thread to the marathon / triathlon forum under sports

agreed - hunnymonster it's all yours

brianon · 13-11-2007 3:13pm

copacetic wrote: »

why do one if you don't want to/can't do the training? It won't be enjoyable in the least and if you can't get through the training without getting injured you are pretty much certain to get injured on the day of the marathon. The reason there is so much mileage is to support the long runs so you don't get injured during them.

also the conemara is a relatively hard one anyway.

I have some long distance running experience. I trained a few years back for 5 months and racked up quite a few miles. I got injured close the the marathon with ITBS from I guess too much ... running/training.

My training back then was like 5 runs a week with Sunday being a long distance. Starting from 5 miles to 20 miles.

I don't want to just complete a marathon in any old time. I'd much rather do it in a decent time.

I couldn't face running that mileage again though

I am not saying I want some easy no-running training but I just wonder if allot of the training mileage can be replaced by...other things?

With crossfit I do ALLOT of squats and deadlifts so I should at this stage have strong knee joints and would be confident of not getting injured during a marathon. I would not be so confident if I had to run 30+ miles a week for 12 weeks.

--amadeus-- · 13-11-2007 3:36pm

Cardio fitness and leg strength from weights alone won't get you through a marathon. You will be violating something called teh "specificality of training" which basically states that to do an event you have to mimic that event in training - hence if you want to run then cycling (for example) as training will be of limited benifit as you work different muscles in different ways. Additionally a weights regime may actual hinder your running as it may impare your flexibility, according to Noaks something between 40 and 60% of the power in your stride comes from the elasticity of your muscles and tendons. This elestacity is usually reduced by weights and muscle hypertrophy.

That said there is no reason why a fit individual willing to rack up the long runs you mentioned shouldn't be able to "do" a marathon, but it all depends on how much pain you are willing to put up with. My first I did a couple of 18s and a 20, logged around 30 miles a week for 12 weeks+ and I hips and knees were shot to bits by mile 18 - the accumulated impact on tarmac iis not comfortable and with fewer miles you will hurt a lot sooner. Ease up a little on teh weights, mix in some mid length runs as well as your long ones, maybe look at a bigger mix of cardio cross training than you are now and, aiming for a run / walk, you will reach the end and without killing yourself. Oh and you've picked one of teh toughest marathons in the country as well!

brianon · 13-11-2007 4:02pm

Thanks for the replies guys. Much appreciated.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Additionally a weights regime may actual hinder your running as it may impare your flexibility

My weights regime might not be what you think it is. I don't do like 5 sets of Dumbbell curls, leg curls and bench press. The crossfit stuff is mainly bodyweight exercises.

I think I'll try to come up with some sort of plan and then see how ... feasible
... it is. If I went with a 16 week plan and aimed for two runs a week. Starting at 10 (4 + 6) miles total the first week and gradually increasing to a final week (before a taper) of about 10 miles mid-week + 22 miles on a Sunday.

I am prepared to hurt during the marathon for sure but not prepared to cause some serious damage so will have to think about this some more.

hunnymonster · 13-11-2007 5:17pm

g'em wrote: »

agreed - hunnymonster it's all yours

Thanks babe.

To answer the question, as the others have said

yes it is do-able but yes it will hurt and do damage and you will not do yourself justice.

Take Amadeus for example (I hope he doesn't mind), He was a fit guy with limited mileage done when he ran his first marathon. He did OK. Since then he has gotten more time on his feet and his marathon times have been coming down steadily. He is now threatening to qualify for the Boston marathon which is often considered the measure of a good club standard male runner (women's qualifying times are slower)

I would also advise against Connemara as your race of choice if you are going into it unprepared. The reason being that the first half of that race is flat but the second half is uphill. The gradient isn't nearly as bad as people make out but if you're not a runner, you're going to be tired at that stage and probably enduring a certain amount of cramping. Hills are hard to shuffle up. I would suggest looking at the other early season marathons (e.g. Belfast or Newry in Ireland or something like Seville or Luton abroad)

I should qualify this by saying, I went from complete couch potato to marathon in 12 weeks and my longest run before the marathon was 10 miles on a treadmill. In the race I hurt like hell and after I finished I had to pee like a man because I could not move between the sitting and standing positions easily but it can be done.

brianon · 13-11-2007 5:57pm

hunnymonster wrote: »

Thanks babe.

To answer the question, as the others have said

yes it is do-able but yes it will hurt and do damage and you will not do yourself justice.

Take Amadeus for example (I hope he doesn't mind), He was a fit guy with limited mileage done when he ran his first marathon. He did OK. Since then he has gotten more time on his feet and his marathon times have been coming down steadily. He is now threatening to qualify for the Boston marathon which is often considered the measure of a good club standard male runner (women's qualifying times are slower)

I would also advise against Connemara as your race of choice if you are going into it unprepared. The reason being that the first half of that race is flat but the second half is uphill. The gradient isn't nearly as bad as people make out but if you're not a runner, you're going to be tired at that stage and probably enduring a certain amount of cramping. Hills are hard to shuffle up. I would suggest looking at the other early season marathons (e.g. Belfast or Newry in Ireland or something like Seville or Luton abroad)

I should qualify this by saying, I went from complete couch potato to marathon in 12 weeks and my longest run before the marathon was 10 miles on a treadmill. In the race I hurt like hell and after I finished I had to pee like a man because I could not move between the sitting and standing positions easily but it can be done.

Thanks for the advise. I do want to do myself justice in the race as I can't see the point of just 'completing' by fair means or foul. I want it to be an achievement.

I suppose if I just go with my mix of crossfit & some distance running I will find out if it is working as time progresses.

tbh I am gonna have to have at least 2x20mile rns done before I can run the marathon. If after 3 months I can't complete the 15-20 milers then I know to leave it for now.

Davideac · 21-11-2007 11:15pm

I recently finished the Dublin City Marathon! It was my first Marathon and I was extremely nervous because I didn't do enough training. I would have been fairly fit before I started any training. So, what I did was... Two months before the run I.... N0.1 Gave up Drink (NB) No.2 Ran 4-6 miles every second day No.3 Did long runs most Sundays. My longest run before the event was 14 miles. Everybody said this wasn't enough, but the occasion and the crowd carried me the rest of the way. Also its really important to eat well, you should be sick of pasta. Another thing that drove me was... I did the run for a local charity. I had t-shirts printed up with my name and charity on them and as I ran around the course people were cheering me on. www.flyingcolours.ie were the people who sorted me out with the t-shirts. Other than that all I can say is don't go running a marathon if you haven’t done at least one substantial run. Saying that, Brut force and determination will get you around. The feeling of crossing the line is indescribable!!!! Enjoy it….:)

brianon · 22-11-2007 12:11am

Davideac wrote: »

I recently finished the Dublin City Marathon! It was my first Marathon and I was extremely nervous because I didn't do enough training. I would have been fairly fit before I started any training. So, what I did was... Two months before the run I.... N0.1 Gave up Drink (NB) No.2 Ran 4-6 miles every second day No.3 Did long runs most Sundays. My longest run before the event was 14 miles. Everybody said this wasn't enough, but the occasion and the crowd carried me the rest of the way. Also its really important to eat well, you should be sick of pasta. Another thing that drove me was... I did the run for a local charity. I had t-shirts printed up with my name and charity on them and as I ran around the course people were cheering me on. www.flyingcolours.ie were the people who sorted me out with the t-shirts. Other than that all I can say is don't go running a marathon if you haven’t done at least one substantial run. Saying that, Brut force and determination will get you around. The feeling of crossing the line is indescribable!!!! Enjoy it….:)

Cool. Congrats on ur first marathon.

I've decided on what my training is and have actually started

Basically I will keep my existing crossfit training and do 5 extra runs. Thats it.
5 runs of a decent distance mind. First one was last Saturday. 13.5 miles. So one down and 4 to go. Fingers crossed

Noelisgod · 25-11-2007 3:26pm

If you want to run a marathon you have to train properly and do the miledge or else you will be killed on the race day with pain. Serioulsy dude cop on to yourself before you put yourself in hospital. Thats like me saying I want to go skydiving but not bother taking any lessons/instructions beforehand - :eek:

brianon · 25-11-2007 7:38pm

Noelisgod wrote: »

If you want to run a marathon you have to train properly and do the miledge or else you will be killed on the race day with pain. Serioulsy dude cop on to yourself before you put yourself in hospital. Thats like me saying I want to go skydiving but not bother taking any lessons/instructions beforehand - :eek:

The comparison you are making is way off the mark. I understand what you are saying but the example you use is a little ott. Skydiving I would imagine is far more skill based and I would reckon I could do slightly more damage skydiving than running a marathon. Unless I get a heart attack that is

Look...tbh, I train every day. Crossfit 5 times a week. 3 days a week I row as well as CF.

tbh I am quite confident I can complete in a reasonable time (for myself) this marathon. Actually I think I can run it in a better time than if I trained like I did the last time...5 days of running a week (a mainstream marathon plan).

If after my next run (18miler next month) I find it is not working then I can always review and add in some extra mileage.

I reckon CF is enough though, especially with this added five runs to get my body used to the pounding it will receive on the day.

Serioulsy dude cop on to yourself before you put yourself in hospital.

I am not stupid. I don't intend to turn up on the day and wing it. By the time April comes around I will have put down five (one down already) serious runs. If they go well then I see no reason whatsoever to be fearful of one extra effort.

Odysseus · 25-11-2007 8:11pm

brianon wrote: »

First one was last Saturday. 13.5 miles. So one down and 4 to go. Fingers crossed

Am I correct in thinking that you will only do five runs, no other runs? If so I'm quite interested in the after effects of your first run, how difficult was it? How were you when you finished and the next day? I think your goal is doable but it will hurt. Best of luck with it.

brianon · 25-11-2007 8:35pm

yeah. Five extra runs. I run usually once a month anyway. 5 or 10k usually but that would be it.

After that 13+ miler i was a little stiff but was grand two days later and there were terrible conditions for that one.

--amadeus-- · 26-11-2007 10:23am

While he might have phrased it better I think Noel may have a point. I'm running a marathon in April and I won't be starting my training properly until mid December. After that I will be logging long runs every week until the taper. 5 long runs between now and the Connemarathon is roughly one a month and you won't gain the maximum physiological benifits of teh runs by spacing them so far apart.

Much more of teh marathon is run in the head than novices believe and a strong mental attitude (like the one you are showing) is great and will stand you in good stead. Like Odysseus I am curious as to how well your body will stack up when you suddenly start throwing 18 and 20 mile runs at it.

I'll repeat again that a marathon on minimal preperation is doable. But there is still a minimum that you need to be willing to do and you seem to be (almost deliberatly) breaking every established marathon training principle. While I don't doubt that you are fit I'm not sure you apreciate the unique demands that distance running places on your body - cardio fitness is the least of your worries on the day! Of particular concern is your confidence that you can comlete it in a "resonable" time, a fairly sure sign you will set off to hard early on.

You seem to have decided what you are going to do regardless but if you want to comlete the marathon with a time target in mind and with the majority of your excercise as cross training then I strongly suggest looking at this, it's a plan that has 3 runs a week with the rest of teh training made up of cross training work and is highly reccomended by those who follow it.

brianon · 26-11-2007 11:57am

--amadeus-- wrote: »

While he might have phrased it better I think Noel may have a point. I'm running a marathon in April and I won't be starting my training properly until mid December. After that I will be logging long runs every week until the taper. 5 long runs between now and the Connemarathon is roughly one a month and you won't gain the maximum physiological benifits of teh runs by spacing them so far apart.

Much more of teh marathon is run in the head than novices believe and a strong mental attitude (like the one you are showing) is great and will stand you in good stead. Like Odysseus I am curious as to how well your body will stack up when you suddenly start throwing 18 and 20 mile runs at it.

I'll repeat again that a marathon on minimal preperation is doable. But there is still a minimum that you need to be willing to do and you seem to be (almost deliberatly) breaking every established marathon training principle. While I don't doubt that you are fit I'm not sure you apreciate the unique demands that distance running places on your body - cardio fitness is the least of your worries on the day! Of particular concern is your confidence that you can comlete it in a "resonable" time, a fairly sure sign you will set off to hard early on.

You seem to have decided what you are going to do regardless but if you want to comlete the marathon with a time target in mind and with the majority of your excercise as cross training then I strongly suggest looking at this, it's a plan that has 3 runs a week with the rest of teh training made up of cross training work and is highly reccomended by those who follow it.

Thanks amadeus for the link and the advice.
I do kinda see this as an experiment of sorts.

Remember I have done the long running marathon training before (a few years ago) so I have experience, both in the physical and psychological sense, of what it takes to run a marathon. (even though I got injured a few weeks before that marathon).

I have one long run a month (with one shorter run a month as part of my normal crossfit training).

My next run is this weekend and is 10k as part of my normal training. Two weeks later I will run 18miles. I will have a fair idea how things are progressing after that run. If I feel I need more mileage then I can up the number of runs as I see it.

As for me going out at a fast pace. I am usually the opposite when running a long distance.

Odysseus · 26-11-2007 3:16pm

brianon wrote: »

I do kinda see this as an experiment of sorts.

.

Well if your are going to go for, enjoy the journey;) but as you see it as an experiment would you mind keeping us informed as to how you get on.

I'm interested as I do a lot of training for my events, but make my own plans up. The most I ever run is three times a weeks and that's training for ultras, though I will croos train in Martial Arts/Self defense. Thought I have to say for me it is about the long run time spend on your feet. Cheers

brianon · 26-11-2007 3:31pm

Odysseus wrote: »

Well if your are going to go for, enjoy the journey;) but as you see it as an experiment would you mind keeping us informed as to how you get on.

Will do. I've done up a training plan now that involves a little more running. Two runs every three weeks.
Wk1: Long Run
Wk2: 10k
Wk3: No Run.

Repeated 6 times for a total of Six long runs. Six 10ks (which is close to what I would have run anyway). Thats a total of 113 miles in eighteen weeks for the long runs (15m/17m/19m/20m/22m/20m).

Each long run will be rest day / long run day/ rest day to aid recovery.
Other than that its Crossfit and bit of indoor soccer.

Will keep this thread updated with progress.

If I die during the marathon you can all say a collective "I told him so" and not feel guilty. My treat

--amadeus-- · 26-11-2007 5:24pm

To put that into context I ran roughly 400 miles in the 12 weeks before my first marathon and felt undertrained and had to switch to a run / walk after 18 miles...

Personally I think you're mad but with the length of those long runs it will be doable, if you can manage to make them all. Do check back in here after your next long one. How are you validating the length of your long runs by the way?

brianon · 26-11-2007 10:51pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

How are you validating the length of your long runs by the way?

You mean where am I getting these lengths from ?
Well I would see those distances as being great guidelines as to what I am currently (and as I progress) capable of running.

If I can run those then I would imagine I can run the marathon.

Fast_Mover · 27-11-2007 12:54am

Just came across this thread now..very interesting read/experiment i must say!:D
Will be keeping an eye on progress..

rovers_runner · 27-11-2007 8:58am

brianon wrote: »

Remember I have done the long running marathon training before (a few years ago) so I have experience, both in the physical and psychological sense, of what it takes to run a marathon. (even though I got injured a few weeks before that marathon).

Point is you don't know, and it'll hit hard when you realise at about 20 or 21 miles that your training wasn't sufficient.
I know I've been there and being a slow jogger I'd know the drawbacks of not having enough training done even more than someone fast who is a natural athlete.

You'd want to seriously reasses your plan if you want to make it to the start line, I nearly didn't with a groin problem as I left too much until too late.

brianon · 27-11-2007 11:22am

Thanks again guys for the input/interest. I am interested myself to see how it goes

At this stage I don't want to move too far from my origianl plan and end up running loads of miles 'casue thats what I want to avoid.

Anyway...from talking to some CF guys on the CF forums I've modified my plan like so...
Wk1: Long Run
Wk2: 10k
Wk3: Speed work. 400m/800m sprint/recover repeat etc...

Thats it. Thats final

So 6 longs runs. 6 10ks and 6 speed work sessions.

The 15miler this weekend will reveal some more.

--amadeus-- · 27-11-2007 2:01pm

I meant how do you know how long your long runs are? GPS watch, drive the routes, gmap pedometer?

I'm not sure what CF is (crossfit?) but I would seriously question thier competance in marathon training if they are advising speed work when your objective is to simply finish. Each to thier own obviously but IMO it's a total waste of time and potentially high risk.

Speed work - in particular the sort of training you mention - is designed to boost your VO2 max and allow you to maintain a faster pace for teh same VO2 max %. This is pointless in your case for 2 main reasons. First you are not - according to what you have said - running for speed, simply to complete the marathon. In this case you need endurance and speed work will not help at all. Secondly VO2 max is not a particularly important measure of marathon ability (Pfizer & Douglas, Noakes) so improving your VO2 max will improve your speed over short (ie 10k) distance but will not affect more important physiological factors such as lactate threashold and running economy and so this training will therefore not affect your ability to complete a marathon. Finally speed sessions are very stressful on the body and - of all training sessions - carry the highest injury risk. Running as infrequently as you do your bosd wont - again in my opinion - have the adaptions to cope with intensive speed sessions.

It's your body but if you are going to take advice I would be minded to take it from those with some form of experience.

brianon · 27-11-2007 3:08pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I meant how do you know how long your long runs are? GPS watch, drive the routes, gmap pedometer?

Drive the route and estimate.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm not sure what CF is (crossfit?) but I would seriously question thier competance in marathon training if they are advising speed work when your objective is to simply finish. Each to thier own obviously but IMO it's a total waste of time and potentially high risk.

I am not saying (nor is any CF individual saying) that this plan is optimal for running a marathon. Thats not the point. What I want to do is...
a) run a marathon in a reasonable time (not just 'complete' one)
b) run as few miles as possible to allow me to achieve 'a'
c) keep up the CrossFit training.
The people in the CF community who have advised me have experience in running a marathon with very very limited mileage. Some less than 50 miles and some with 0 miles in the preceding 3 months.

--amadeus-- wrote: »

Speed work - in particular the sort of training you mention - is designed to boost your VO2 max and allow you to maintain a faster pace for teh same VO2 max %. This is pointless in your case for 2 main reasons. First you are not - according to what you have said - running for speed, simply to complete the marathon. In this case you need endurance and speed work will not help at all. Secondly VO2 max is not a particularly important measure of marathon ability (Pfizer & Douglas, Noakes) so improving your VO2 max will improve your speed over short (ie 10k) distance but will not affect more important physiological factors such as lactate threashold and running economy and so this training will therefore not affect your ability to complete a marathon. Finally speed sessions are very stressful on the body and - of all training sessions - carry the highest injury risk. Running as infrequently as you do your bosd wont - again in my opinion - have the adaptions to cope with intensive speed sessions.

It's your body but if you are going to take advice I would be minded to take it from those with some form of experience.

Ok. I am not good with this scientific stuff

but from a recent CF Journal...

If you look at runners who make the transition from 10K to marathon, there is no difference in their VO2 max levels.

Have you ever done a triathlon, or run a 10k (or more) and experienced not a lack of breath (cardiovascular endurance isn’t the limiting factor), but a soreness in the legs or even other muscles? This is a lack of strength, stamina, and conditioning!

I think this will be my problem. I think I have the 'cardiovascular endurance' but possibly the legs will wilt.

Having athletes doing 100+ mile bike rides three to four weeks out from the Ironman World Championships, or doing any highly oxidative training for long periods of time, makes zero sense if the athlete has already developed their ability to use oxygen effectively. The solution is to strength train and make them work at faster than normal speeds (i.e., speed training and intervals), while retaining the ability to recover.

When I talk about strength training, here’s what I mean. Most of the time, we squat every week, doing sets of ten at 80 percent of max, then adding five pounds for eight reps, then adding five pounds for six reps. This usually scares the newbie endurance athletes to death, but they get over it soon because we won’t train them any other way. They learn that the strength training actually speeds up recovery and lets them get back to training much sooner than they thought.

Speaking of recovery, that’s the next limiting factor we have to work on with distance athletes. Most of them are training exclusively in the oxidative pathway, and highly overdoing it at that. Even if you are just training this way, would it not behoove you to have the ability to actually recover from these workouts so that you could actually benefit from them? We make each of our athletes recover to a heart rate of 120 in less than two minutes when doing intervals or hill work. If they can’t recover, then the workout is done. Walk away! When they run pace work, nothing is more than a half marathon so that they have the ability to go out and actually train the next day with purpose.

Again. I am no expert in CF or Marathon running. I can only go on what experience I have and advise I get. I have 'some' marathon experience and a nice bit of CF experience. From that limited pool I believe this plan to be the best that qualifies the conditions I am setting out to meet.

--amadeus-- · 27-11-2007 5:30pm

I'm not doubting the expertise of the CF community within thier own boundaries. Nor am I questioning the fact that marathons can be completed with little or no specific training - from the outset I have said it can be done but will hurt. However in the same way that I could pass comment on a crossfit program based on my marathon training and be part right and a lot wrong so they can pass comment on marathon training and be off teh mark. Simply doing a marathon (even a fast one) doesn't make you an expert in how best to prepare for one. Neither would I claim to be an expert (far from it!!) but I have done a few marathons, learned from my mistakes and read a lot about it.

If you are doing speedwork as part of another training plan then good luck. If you are doing it to help your marathon you are wasting your time. If you were doing a full plan and prepping for your 2nd or 3rd marathon then that's a different thing but on the limited running you are doing the inclusion of speed work is pointless, but again thats just my opinion.

As for your other points:

1 - VO2 max in runners. Are you refereing to general runners or elites? Besides I'm not sure about the relevance? In a 10k you'll be working at 80 - 90% VO2 max and a marathon 65 - 70% so the upper limit will dictate pace rather than endurance. You simply want to complete so any changes you can make to your VO2 max won't really help you.

2 - aerobic endurance. This is what we have all been saying all along. You probably have the fitness but the point of training is to make teh other physiological adaptions that only running can give (specificality of training).

3 - 100+ bike rides. Utter garbage. The training isn't to "develo(p) their ability to use oxygen effectively" it's to make all of teh other physiological adaptations (see point 2).

4 - Weight training. Not sure of teh relevance. Weight training has been proven to have very limited benifits in running (see Noaks "Lore of Running" for an exhaustive list of teh literature). The upshot of it though is that if you add 30 mins weight training to a running program you will improve. However if you just run for an extra 30 mins you'll improve more (I can dig out the relevant scientific papers if you need them)

5 - Recovery. No areguments here, faster recovery = more training = better performance. I'd like to see the documented evidence that strength training specifically speeds recovery in runners though, do you have the source?

brianon · 27-11-2007 6:09pm

--amadeus-- wrote: »

I'm not doubting the expertise of the CF community within thier own boundaries. Nor am I questioning the fact that marathons can be completed with little or no specific training - from the outset I have said it can be done but will hurt. However in the same way that I could pass comment on a crossfit program based on my marathon training and be part right and a lot wrong so they can pass comment on marathon training and be off teh mark. Simply doing a marathon (even a fast one) doesn't make you an expert in how best to prepare for one. Neither would I claim to be an expert (far from it!!) but I have done a few marathons, learned from my mistakes and read a lot about it.

If you are doing speedwork as part of another training plan then good luck. If you are doing it to help your marathon you are wasting your time. If you were doing a full plan and prepping for your 2nd or 3rd marathon then that's a different thing but on the limited running you are doing the inclusion of speed work is pointless, but again thats just my opinion.

First off. I really am not in a position to debate with you on this because I believe you know more about allot of this (VO2max etc...) than I do.

What I will say though

is...

1 - VO2 max in runners. Are you refereing to general runners or elites? Besides I'm not sure about the relevance? In a 10k you'll be working at 80 - 90% VO2 max and a marathon 65 - 70% so the upper limit will dictate pace rather than endurance. You simply want to complete so any changes you can make to your VO2 max won't really help you.

I don't simply want to complete. I want to do it in a decent but realistic time.

2 - aerobic endurance. This is what we have all been saying all along. You probably have the fitness but the point of training is to make teh other physiological adaptions that only running can give (specificality of training).

'I' think that one of the biggest physiological adaptations to be made is to that of the constant pounding that the legs, knees, ankles will take. I believe some of this adaptation can be catered for through CF workouts. Including Squats, Deadlifts, Box Jumps etc... The rest will occur during the limited (that includes some substantial runs) running.

We agree on point 5

As for Points 3/4. The material I am referencing is written by this guy...

Brian MacKenzie is an expert in strength training for endurance athletes as well as a coach for Multisports Orange County. He currently holds a double certification through the International Sports Sciences Association (ISSA, CFT, and SSC) and is a level-2 POSE-certified running coach. In addition to owning CrossFit Newport Beach/Genetic Potential, Brian founded and operates one of the only internship programs for professional trainers in California.

I can PM you the article if you want. Its not a free journal so I'd prefer not to post it here in full.

I am not trying to make an argument for one training method over another. I think my training plan is right for me but I am always open minded as I really have no expertise in either CF or endurance running.

I will learn pretty quickly if what I am doing is going to work

--amadeus-- · 27-11-2007 7:29pm

The reason I was asking about sources is that the general fitness community often spout advice about running in general and marathons in particular that is so far wrong it's dangerous (one gym in Limerick offered advice to me that verged on the suicidal before the "expert" asked "just how far is the marathon anyway...?"!!) I just wanted to check that the people you were getting advice from weren't just the usual internet know it alls (unlike me

)

I'll stand over what I said, you'll do it but you'll hurt and the adaptions from your strength and cross training may help but will not compensate fully. The real test is your 16+ mile runs.

Looking forward to teh progress reports!

Running a marathon with no specific trainng

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