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Discussion of Web Hosts on Webmaster forum

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  • 06-02-2008 5:23pm
    #1
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭


    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    Forward those questions to H365, this is not their support site.

    Surely, given the size of the host, that there's a general Irish Webmaster interest here that warrants discussion of the issue? I mean, subject to the charter rules that is.

    What was a significant event that affects a lot / most / all Irish webmasters (that this forum is meant to cater for) is a taboo subject. Why?

    If the answer is along the lines of "because it descends in to a slag-fest" then punish those people (which are invariable hosters pimping anyway) and let's get on with the discussion that affects the community. No?

    I'm not writing this because my previous thread was locked, but because most hosting-related threads get locked because of 3 or 4 hosters (who are never reprimanded for blatent breach of the charter) and it's the community that loses out.

    Disclaimer: Whilst I do manage servers/hosting, I don't offer those services to the public. I am, or was, a customer of most of the big Irish companies, and am in no way affiliated with any outside of that.
    Post edited by Shield on


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    #2
    aidan_walsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    The rules of the charter are clear, forward all technical queries regarding a host to the host's support. This follows with queries and discussions regarding outages - anything posted here is speculation at best unless it comes from one of the H365 guys on boards.

    As for making people aware of the issue, H365 do this through their own status website linked in the other thread. If you're buying hosting, you should be following your hosts updates regarding uptime, outages and maintenance. If someone gets a complaint that their site is down, thats where they should go, not here.


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    #3
    ianhobo
    Registered Users Posts: 413 ✭✭ianhobo


    I'm sure ill regret posting this :)

    In fairness, cgarneys original post (now locked) was neither seeking technical assistance as per the charter, nor was he seeking hosting support, and it wasn't "hosting bashing"
    He simply informed others of a situation and left it at that.

    If was another poster who then left a "personal view" regarding hosting, which shouldn't be tolerated regardless of whether its related to hosting, politics, or the weather as it completely detracts from any possible conversation or decent discussion by those who are genuinely interested in discussing a topic.

    When you buy a service or a product, be it a car, a cream from boots, do you sign up to all their "service announcements" regarding updates, safety recalls etc

    I think the same applies here. There is nothing in the charter against providing information - it's unfortunate however that some people have to immediately resort to slander because they have a differeing personal experience, thereby robbing all of us the opportunity to discuss something which *is* an integral part to being a webmaster


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    #4
    Blaster99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Blaster99


    I tried to resurrect the web hosting forum but was greeted with a lot of paranoia from various quarters so it went nowhere. Might be time to start a webhosting.ie forum so this stuff can be discussed without the threats that goes with this place.

    I would recommend hosting in the UK, to answer the original post. Cheaper and better. The latency to the UK is marginal so there's no real point in hosting in Ireland.


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    #5
    jmcc
    Registered Users Posts: 7,292 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Blaster99 wrote: »
    I tried to resurrect the web hosting forum but was greeted with a lot of paranoia from various quarters so it went nowhere. Might be time to start a webhosting.ie forum so this stuff can be discussed without the threats that goes with this place.
    Sometimes hosting discussions do end up as pissing contests. This is because the Irish hosting market is a very competitive one. The other problem is that the barrier to entry at the retail end of the hosting business is low. Just about anyone can get some shared hosting and call themselves a hoster. And hundreds do.

    At the low end of the market, the average lifetime for these players is about 18 months. Many set up during the school/college holidays and their relations and parents' friends sometimes provide them with clients (web development is often a part of this and they do work cheaper than real web development businesses). They rarely get larger than about 15 domains - most of them are personal domains registered for projects that haven't a hope in hell of happening. And eighteen months or so later, the real hosters, the webdevs and the clients are left mess of sorting out domains that have been not been registered in the client's names or getting EPP codes for domains or trying to recover the remains of the websites from archive.org.

    There is only a few pure-play hosters in Ireland. Most of the Irish hosting business consists of web developers who provide web hosting to their clients. Many of these hosters post here. However one of the problems with the previous webhosting forum was that there was a lot of jockeying for position and sniping. Moderation was not that effective because of the competitive nature of the hosting business. It is one thing for someone in the business to moderate a hosting forum but it is quite another for a civilian to do it. It is like a pacifist trying to break up a barfight by asking the combatants to be nice to each other.

    Regards...jmcc


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    #6
    Blaster99
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,630 ✭✭✭Blaster99


    I offered to do it along with a sensible charter, but it was dismissed without discussion by some Boards admin. As Cahal points out, it's useful to be able to discuss the merits of various hosting options, providers, and locations. Anyways, if I care about enough I might setup my own forum site.


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    #7
    Ph3n0m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,655 ✭✭✭Ph3n0m


    That is why before I left as MOD, I set up a sticky for people to recommend various hosters, etc

    But speaking as experience of the petty bitching that used to go on here - it gets out of hand way to quickly. Especially when people get on the defensive and start lashing out threats of libel, slander and other such words that used to cause me headaches.


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    #8
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,523 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    Sounds like a need for an Irish webhostdiscussion site.


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    #9
    mneylon
    Registered Users Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭mneylon


    There's a couple of boards over here:
    http://www.irishwebmasterforum.com/

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    #10
    Sposs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭Sposs


    A discussion site owned by a the owner of a hosting company doesn't allow for frank and impartial dialogue.


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    #11
    mneylon
    Registered Users Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭mneylon


    Sposs wrote: »
    A discussion site owned by a the owner of a hosting company doesn't allow for frank and impartial dialogue.
    Webhostingtalk.com was owned by EV1 for years.

    And if it was owned by someone else you'd have another complaint...

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    #12
    Ph3n0m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,655 ✭✭✭Ph3n0m


    Sposs wrote: »
    A discussion site owned by a the owner of a hosting company doesn't allow for frank and impartial dialogue.

    Says who? Have you tried to initiate a discussion about hosting on that particular site?


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    #13
    Sposs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,472 ✭✭✭Sposs


    I'd be happy for someone like John Mc Cormac to run it. Someone with no direct links with any of the posters.


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    #14
    Shiminay
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 28,633 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shiminay


    But would John? :) Ultimately, someone has to host it and if they moderate it in a way you find distateful, then set your own up (hosted in America or something :D). I'm not having a go, but I don't think you're making an entirely fair point there.


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    #15
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I have fairly equal disdain for all the Irish hosting companies, so maybe I should run it :)

    /joke


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    #16
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    So we're to set up an external site (external to Boards.ie community) just because we can't (or won't, rather) enfore a charter?

    Simple, only allow the hosts to defent claims / correct mistakes, but not allow them post general comments / advice like "you should check your host does XYZ when choosing" (or anything at all other than clarifications. If they abuse that remove the posting rights and any clarifications can be done by PM/in writing.

    My point above still stands. H365 outage was of concern to a significant portion of the Webmaster forum, it should be allowed to be discussed openly.


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    #17
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I agree. It's impossible to discuss hosting issues without their usual bull**** about foreign hosts being terrible and Irish hosts being great value, or how only Irish hosts have good support (!!), or how your host should have their own data centre, etc.

    Basically they shout down anyone who disagrees with them.


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    #18
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    As seen as this is not in its own thread, I'll reply..
    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    The rules of the charter are clear
    I thought so too, until I read your post. However, the pimping is clearly/blatently not being enforced.
    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    forward all technical queries regarding a host to the host's support.
    That should be the first port of call, agreed. However, there are some problems that can be quickly solved by other posters here, or it might be handy to gauge how significant a problem is (does it affect 1 user or 1,000 users).

    I get the 'this is not HostXYZ-1's support forum' (and nor should hosts be encouraged (allowed?) to post replies to them, but this is no different than being allowed to aske any other technical question. How do I do XYZ in HTML? Ask your HTML provider / software provider. How do I tweak my .htaccess? Ask your host/server provider.
    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    anything posted here is speculation at best unless it comes from one of the H365 guys on boards.
    Of course, but then, by extension, there's a whole load of speculation. We speculate about standards, bugs, other hosts. It's the nature of online communities.
    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    As for making people aware of the issue, H365 do this through their own status website linked in the other thread. If you're buying hosting, you should be following your hosts updates regarding uptime, outages and maintenance. If someone gets a complaint that their site is down, thats where they should go, not here.

    Ah come on. Do you really think all H365 customers know about the blog? Hell, do you think all H365 customers who post in the Webmaster forum know about the blog?

    I'm not questioning Aidan (or any mod)'s ability here, I'm questioning the current status quo (a weak charter followed by weak enforcement) where the only losers are the Boards.ie community (the people who give time/expertise for free to help build the site, let's not forget). The hosters clearly have won (as can be evident in various posts 'host X posts here' right across most forums).

    There's already the offer of help (and I'll throw my name in the hat) to make it right (be that more mods, updated charter, or whatever). What's wrong is not being able to discuss a significant industry event.


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    #19
    aidan_walsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    ianhobo wrote:
    In fairness, cgarneys original post (now locked) was neither seeking technical assistance as per the charter, nor was he seeking hosting support, and it wasn't "hosting bashing"
    He simply informed others of a situation and left it at that.
    Those types of threads have a long and consistant history of turning to ****.
    ianhobo wrote:
    When you buy a service or a product, be it a car, a cream from boots, do you sign up to all their "service announcements" regarding updates, safety recalls etc
    No, but if you buy a car should you be paying attention to whether or not you're getting what you paid for? Same goes for your hosting, and the hosts have their own was of doing that. If you're going to rely on going to a website to find a post saying that your host is down...
    H365 outage was of concern to a significant portion of the Webmaster forum, it should be allowed to be discussed openly.
    1) Bring me numbers showing that a significant portion of the forums are effected by an outage by any one host.
    2) What discussion could you have? Honestly, what more can be said about whether or not a host is up or down?
    How much this is effecting you? Tell your host, or a blog (maybe one hosted off your original hosting package), or take it to Consumer Issues. Thats a problem not related to being a webmaster, but whether or not your host is fulfilling their service obligations. Nothing that can be said on the Webmaster forum will change that.

    Alternative hosts? Open a thread saying you are looking for new hosting, or read the Where to get Hosting sticky.

    We had a Web Hosting forum. It got closed for a reason. The Webmaster forum is not its replacement.


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    #20
    aidan_walsh
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,208 ✭✭✭✭aidan_walsh


    cgarvy wrote:
    Do you really think all H365 customers know about the blog? Hell, do you think all H365 customers who post in the Webmaster forum know about the blog?
    Frankly, that's H365's problem is they are not advertising it in a manner that allows all their customers to know about it.
    cgarvy wrote:
    this is no different than being allowed to aske any other technical question. How do I do XYZ in HTML? Ask your HTML provider / software provider. How do I tweak my .htaccess? Ask your host/server provider.
    Well established standards are fair game because everyone would be using them. If a host provided extensions to those standards, that would be something to refer to the host.
    cgarvy wrote:
    I'm questioning the current status quo (a weak charter followed by weak enforcement) where the only losers are the Boards.ie community (the people who give time/expertise for free to help build the site, let's not forget). The hosters clearly have won (as can be evident in various posts 'host X posts here' right across most forums).
    I have been trying to be lenient, because I'm pretty much the new guy in there and didn't want to go in throwing my weight around. That said, I feel I have been fair at the same time, working both in thread and behind the scenes to ensure that the rules are followed.

    If the community feels that that has been the wrong approach, please be free to tell me. I can come down a lot harder if thats what people want.


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    #21
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    Let's take a quick look at the current charter...
    LoLth wrote: »
    This is not a hosting support/bashing forum. If you have a problem with your host - deal directly with them.

    Don't think we need this and it's not being enforced (e.g. Letshost.ie thread)
    LoLth wrote: »
    NO ADVERTISING.You want to advertise, go and buy a block of banners from the Boards.ie owners. That also includes any "we are cheaper" claims.[/B]
    Not being enforced at all at all. Should probably strenghten that to include "Service providers [not just hosts!] must clearly identify themselves as being such, and must only refer to their own service provision when defending or clarifying other posts referencing them, and must not refer to competitors at all.".

    In the interests of the community, it might be no harm to allow / encourage providers to post new threads about new offerings.. but maybe leave that until later (and definitely not allow promises/coming soon!!)?
    LoLth wrote: »
    Same applied to any discussion re your internet connection, etc - deal with the provider first
    If you dealt with H365 yesterday 15 minutes in to the problem, you were told there was no problem. You might have learnt otherwise in this active community, had it been allowed (I know 2 customers of H365 who learnt of the problems from my original post). Maybe encourage contacting the provider first, but I don't see why it should not be allowed.

    Sections 1, 2, 3, 5, 6 all seem like suggestions/tips, rather than forum posting rules to me. I think they belong in a separate Helpful Hints section at then end of the forum posting rules.
    LoLth wrote: »
    NO ADVERTISING. You want to advertise, go and buy a block of banners from the Boards.ie owners. That also includes any "we are cheaper" claims.
    Repeat of the above.
    LoLth wrote: »
    7. Flame wars will not be tolerated (after the humour has worn off that is :) )
    Not being enforced enough especially for the repeat offenders.

    Agreed on 8,9.10 (although I'm in favour of truncating the wording to make the rules more concise and more likely to be read/adhered to).

    So, with a small bit more discussion (including hosters input if they prefer), I can't see why we couldn't come up with a charter that is workable, and lets topics of community interest be discussed openly (usual Boards.ie rules applied, of course).


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    #22
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    Those types of threads have a long and consistant history of turning to ****.
    Agreed, but that's easily fixed. Very easily.
    aidan_walsh wrote: »
    1) Bring me numbers showing that a significant portion of the forums are effected by an outage by any one host.
    By defeinition if H365 (one of the largest hosts in Ireland) become completely unavailable, a significant portion of the Irish webmaster community will be affected (Stephen can provide market share figures if you need 'em, I'm sure!).

    As for your points about Webmaster not being Web Hosting forum, accepted (although in its absence it has to be acknowledged that, it being integral to web mastering, it's been a very active topic in Webmaster forum).

    Starting a thread looking for hosting didn't get the poor dude very far (and I'm partly to blame, but it's mostly the hosts fault, again). Again, easly fixed and the poster could have got some useful advice in the process. Now, community members will be discouraged from seeking such advice. They should not have to be.


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    #23
    cgarvey
    Registered Users Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭cgarvey


    My final say (unless there's a direct question) on the matter is that in my opinion we could have a more open and worthwhile webmaster community if we slightly alter the charter and remove the restrictions on taboo subjects which are in place only because of a handful of posters.

    I've tried to reason my point, and suggested areas of improvement. The Irish Webmaster community has lost out here, and I'm suggesting we fix that.


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    #24
    mneylon
    Registered Users Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭mneylon


    Sposs wrote: »
    I'd be happy for someone like John Mc Cormac to run it. Someone with no direct links with any of the posters.
    Oh give over.

    Someone has to run it and host it.

    I run IWF but I'm not an active moderator - if you spent any time on there you'd know.

    If someone wants to setup an Irish hosting forum - let them.

    But it has to be hosted somewhere. It has to be run by someone and as happened with previous attempts to set these sites up someone will always take issue with some aspect of it. The Irish market is simply too small to sustain anything that big anyway.

    Jmcc isn't going to want to run a forum (he can correct me if I'm wrong, though I doubt if I will be)

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    #25
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I think Sposs's point is valid. A forum about a topic should not be owned and run by a company whose business is to sell that topic.

    I have no problem with irishwebmasterforum.com, but it can't (and doesn't?) call itself an independent, unbiased forum.


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    #26
    mneylon
    Registered Users Posts: 7,739 ✭✭✭mneylon


    dublindude wrote: »
    I think Sposs's point is valid. A forum about a topic should not be owned and run by a company whose business is to sell that topic.

    You really should check your facts.

    It's owned and run by me personally NOT the company.

    Yes I own a 50% shareholding in Blacknight, but NO Blacknight does not own or run that site.

    My original comment about EV1 (Robert Marsh) owning and running the largest hosting forum on the planet is being ignored by both of you ...

    I wonder why?

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    #27
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    blacknight wrote: »
    You really should check your facts.

    It's owned and run by me personally NOT the company.

    Yes I own a 50% shareholding in Blacknight, but NO Blacknight does not own or run that site.

    My original comment about EV1 (Robert Marsh) owning and running the largest hosting forum on the planet is being ignored by both of you ...

    I wonder why?

    LOL

    You own 50% of Blacknight! How is a forum (owned by you) about hosting and webmaster issues in Ireland possibly independent and unbiased?

    You're not making any sense.

    Again, I have no issue with irishwebmasterforum.com, but you can't (at least, with a serious face) promote it as an independent and unbiased forum...


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    #28
    EKRIUQ
    Registered Users Posts: 4,386 ✭✭✭EKRIUQ


    I'm on the IWF regularly and posted there many times on different issues and I can say that Blacknight has nerver pushed hosting, but gave a fair opinion on hosting matters.


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    #29
    AARRRGH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,382 ✭✭✭✭AARRRGH


    I'm sure he does... but notice his name on IWF is "blacknight". His good advice is hardly coming from the goodness of his heart; it's coming with a name attached, and that name is blacknight :)

    Again, that's grand, but it's hardly independent...


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    #30
    DeVore
    Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 32,387 Mod ✭✭✭✭DeVore


    The reason we don't allow reports of hosting outages etc is that "competitors" gleefully run to the forum and paste every little outage and problem their competitors have. Said competitors get sore about being embarrassed in front of potential customers (often unfairly as it might only be a small issue, blown out of proportion) and go on the offensive in the "oh yeah, well what about last month when your server room blew up, eh EH?" style.

    Perhaps there is an argument for allowing a company to make service outage annoucements, locked immediately afterwards, to inform any clients but I doubt they will want that or use it.

    Hosting in Ireland has always been a bug bear of mine... the various companies (as can be seen on this thread) simply can't have a civil conversation with each other. Some can't be in the same room as each other without lawyers present.

    Anyone who wants to open up a forum for such topics is MORE then welcome to, independent or not. I just want nothing further to do with any of them.

    DeV.


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    #31
    Gordon
    Registered Users Posts: 35,523 ✭✭✭✭Gordon


    cgarvey wrote: »
    So we're to set up an external site (external to Boards.ie community) just because we can't (or won't, rather) enfore a charter?
    If that's an answer to me, I was suggesting it as a little gap in the market for anyone willing to set it up. Could be quite popular!


This discussion has been closed.
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