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Gender neutral kids clothing

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Comments

  • #302
    riverrocked
    Closed Accounts Posts: 165 ✭✭riverrocked


    I have to laugh at the outrage over clothing. Fashion is constantly changing. It wasn't that long ago that the "manliest" of men wore powdered white wigs, lace adorned everything, high heels with stockings tied with ribbon. While women were damaging their internal organs for a smaller waist and showing an ankle was a scandal.
    In 100 years people are going to think what we are wearing now is ridiculous. There are plenty of problems with the world already without making up more.


  • #303
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,928 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Samaris wrote: »
    You're aware of female-to-male transgender, right?

    Just checking how that fits into the paranoia.


    I am, as I've said already. Again, similar - though not as extreme - problems pop up. Women can find themselves surprised by the general facts that men do not behave remotely like women, and they have a little more trouble fitting in than initially thought.

    And it's not paranoia. It's everywhere. "Men should get in touch with their feminine side" or "Men should be less stoic", "It's alright to cry in public" etc etc (which I think should be resisted by both sides, in fairness).
    The articles tend to proliferate social media towards the younger men.

    Men are a lot softer now than they were even just 30 years ago. They're getting more effeminate, they're more image conscious, fashion conscious etc.
    They've changed. A lot. And prolific agenda pushing has helped that.
    Unfortunately - and nobody wants to admit this - the world, and the requirements to function well in it, largely haven't.
    It's still a pretty hard place where people ask you how you are, but don't actually want to know.
    Where you just have to buck up and get on with it under your own steam sometimes - because no matter how desperate your situation is, the world does not stop for anyone - but a dangerously increasing number of men -and women, albeit to a lesser degree - just don't have the mettle to do that.


  • #304
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Aye, life can be sh-t - people need to be equipped to deal with it. The message that our feelings should always be taken into consideration is not a useful one - creates victimisation. Sometimes you just have to get on with things. And that's ok too - it is not always possible to be happy.
    That said, this outlook can go too far also - people pushing for a complete lack of compassion and "grow a thick skin" in relation to everything... that is not useful either.


  • #305
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,928 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    wakka12 wrote: »
    And in future when cosmetic surgery improves and trans people can be given perfectly functioning bodies of the other gender, would you approve of it then?

    The only way is a brain transplant into a working body. There are many reasons why I genuinely don't think that's ever going to happen.
    Biggest one is the body. Do you just grow a brainless drone up to age? Does someone "donate"...? Clone?
    Then the transplantation itself.

    Let's say it all happens. And I'm alive.. If it's done right, then I'm certainly never going to know, so... do I need to approve?

    But that's not important. If someone is happy, then I don't really care. And I certainly don't expect them to care what I think, because doing so will disappoint them. It's when they're not happy, that I start taking note.


  • #306
    ceadaoin.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,716 ✭✭✭ceadaoin.


    wakka12 wrote: »
    And in future when cosmetic surgery improves and trans people can be given perfectly functioning bodies of the other gender, would you approve of it then?

    Sorry but I can't see that happening. By its very definition that kind of surgery is only cosmetic. It will be a very long time, if ever, before a fully working reproductive system of the opposite sex can be created/transplanted.


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  • #307
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,928 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Two Tone wrote: »
    Aye, life can be sh-t - people need to be equipped to deal with it. The message that our feelings should always be taken into consideration is not a useful one - creates victimisation. Sometimes you just have to get on with things. And that's ok too - it is not always possible to be happy.
    That said, this outlook can go too far also - people pushing for a complete lack of compassion and "grow a thick skin" in relation to everything... that is not useful either.

    I'd respectfully disagree - I'm struggling to consider a situation where a "thick skin" is a disadvantage, outside of mabye getting a needle..
    It's also separate to compassion. People with a hide moreso than skin can still easily care. If someone really lacks compassion, it's probably because they're a sociopath.


  • #308
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    Well I just mean it's not always a sign of being weak or a victim to be upset by something said to you - e.g. emotional abuse in a relationship, or workplace bullying, stuff that gradually grinds a person down.


  • #309
    Lyaiera
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭Lyaiera


    Renegade Mechanic wrote: »
    Discrimination, prejudice, isolation and financial issues will hurt the mental health of just about everyone. And, generally, they get help with that.

    No. That's either a bald faced lie or your ignorant of the situation. You have people born into generations of embarrassment, and you have people on this forum giving out about them. You have people born into generations of poverty, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into famine, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into political extremism, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into different sexualities, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born to be left handed, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into different genders, and you have people giving out about them.

    And you have people who fit into the general mould of what life is supposed to be about. And even still a lot of them are not happy.

    Yeah. Therre are people helping. There are people helping every single night i go out. There are people helping when I go to the pub. There are people helping when I go for a game of pool. There are people helping when I go to Lidl. There are people helping when I go to my doctors. There are people helping when I stumble on the street.

    You know what? Those people aren't even ****ing helping. They're not deciding to be all ****ing Jesus like and help. They see someone, they get on with their lives. They see someone, maybe in need, and they do something. They don't want praise. They're not white knights. There are people who having a bad time, they try and make it a good time. They're feeling bad, see someone who is having a good time and say, "Can I have a good time too?" And the good person says, "Absolutely, join in." The doubtful, anti-intellectual, anti-joy, argumentative, hateful drinker sneers.

    I don't care if I'm a man or a woman. I honestly do not give a flying ****. Periods sound ****ing awful, for some woman. Childbirth, and raising children sounds amazing according to some parents. I would like a normal life, with a tracker mortgage and decking, the occasional half breakfast roll because I'm watching my weight. I would like a father to my children. I would like to win the euromillions.

    None of that is going to happen. And you know what else isn't going to happen, not for a few years yet anyway. None of you ignorant ****ers are going to mind your own ****ing business. Some of you are going to say get me help, the doctors are wrong, the psychologists are wrong, it's all politics, because you have a feeling in your ignorant gut about what's wrong and what's right.

    I have a feeling too. But my feelings don't matter. You can dismiss because I don't fit into your pretty little world where you hate. Boys wearing girls clothing! That's the end of the world. That's not normal. They're weird. They'll be bullied. I'll teach my child to bully them and when they don't bully that poor innocent I'll bully them because I have a gigantic ****ing stick up my ass, and it's irritating my prostate and it feels kinda good but it's not ****ing normal.

    Who cares if someone is trans. Honestly, who gives a flying ****? You want me to use the mens bathroom? I'll use the mens bathroom, but when someone grabs like they've grabbed me in the bars I've been in what am I supposed to do? Can I stab them? Can I shoot them? Or according to the great god Pan should I just let them cop a feel because they're only being friendly?

    Should I go to the pub? And get felt up? Is that ok? Should I sit on a bench and get screamed at, "ARE YOU A MALE OR ARE YOU A FEMALE?" What do I do in that situation? Do I pound them into the ground while I cry? Do I tell them to **** off? And get put up on youtube?

    People are absolutely ****ed up. And I say that as the staunchest believer in humanity. Women wanting to be men, stupid women. Men wanting to be women, perverts.

    Why do you even care? Because you have to have an opinion on everything you hear on your ****ty radio station, and your forum, and if only the world listened to me. I don't care. What you say hurts me. When you touch me up it scares me. When you call me mentally disturbed I worry that you're going to take a knife to me. But ultimately, you're a piece of ****ing ****

    You are ignorant. I know plenty of ignorant trans people. I know a few nice ignorant trans people. I know you're going to ****ing hate them. I don't like them because they're getting on with their lives with little insight into what the real world, and real opinion of them is. I don't like them because they draw attention just by being normal ****ing human beings living their life. And that's too much for me, because normal people have needs and wants, and loves and losts, and I just want to escape from all you ****ers who want to call me names for something that is entirely inconsequential. Living life is too much for me because you hateful, scaremongering, beyond adolescents don't want divergence.

    Am I a woman? Well, I don't have periods, I have boobs. I have a female endocrine system because of medication, but I don't have a uterus. If I had my way when I was young enough I'd have hips, but I doubt that would be good enough to soothe you. Ultimately, I go to the pub and end up drinking with the owner at 2am over fine whiskeys while he talks about his business woes. On another day my sister will tell me to get off her blanket and give me a present of a fluffier blanket the next day. I'll go to Fota and take a picture of someone taking a picture of monkeys flinging ****. Am I a man or a woman? Maybe I'm a man, and men just ****ing disgust me. Maybe I'm a woman but without the bits. Maybe I'm an alien and going to have a pyramid for my grave.

    Ultimately, I'm going to live my ****ty life.


  • #310
    stefanovich
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,490 ✭✭✭stefanovich


    Firstly I just want to prefix this by saying apologies if I contributed to causing you distress, we are all human and it's apparent you are having a hard time. I try not to get pulled into the emotional side of things so apologies again if I come across as a heartless bastard sometimes. Expressing your emotions can be very therapeutic but emotions can also muddy things.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    No. That's either a bald faced lie or your ignorant of the situation. You have people born into generations of embarrassment, and you have people on this forum giving out about them. You have people born into generations of poverty, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into famine, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into political extremism, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into different sexualities, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born to be left handed, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into different genders, and you have people giving out about them.
    You talk about people being born into things but you are mixing genetics with circumstance. Which is it? I would suppose there is a spectrum of reasons for wanting to change sex.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    And you have people who fit into the general mould of what life is supposed to be about. And even still a lot of them are not happy.
    That's certainly true.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    None of you ignorant ****ers are going to mind your own ****ing business. Some of you are going to say get me help, the doctors are wrong, the psychologists are wrong, it's all politics, because you have a feeling in your ignorant gut about what's wrong and what's right.
    You must understand it's very hard to comprehend for some people including myself. Doesn't mean we are ignorant. It is my business when it comes to which bathroom someone might use or when things are being redefined in society (or at least attempting to be redefined) in order to help a vocal minority. Your feelings are important but so are the feelings of the child who may need to share that bathroom.

    It also seems apparent that the psychologists are not all in agreement. Definitions have recently been in flux so its not black and white.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    I have a feeling too. But my feelings don't matter. You can dismiss because I don't fit into your pretty little world where you hate. Boys wearing girls clothing! That's the end of the world. That's not normal. They're weird. They'll be bullied. I'll teach my child to bully them and when they don't bully that poor innocent I'll bully them because I have a gigantic ****ing stick up my ass, and it's irritating my prostate and it feels kinda good but it's not ****ing normal.
    There is a difference between a biologically male child wanting to dress in girls clothes and people trying to actively encourage "gender fluidity". I get you are upset but being emotional is not an argument.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    Who cares if someone is trans. Honestly, who gives a flying ****? You want me to use the mens bathroom? I'll use the mens bathroom, but when someone grabs like they've grabbed me in the bars I've been in what am I supposed to do? Can I stab them? Can I shoot them? Or according to the great god Pan should I just let them cop a feel because they're only being friendly?
    Apologies if you have been a victim but so have a lot of women and children. In my head the rights of the child trumps everyone else.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    Should I go to the pub? And get felt up? Is that ok? Should I sit on a bench and get screamed at, "ARE YOU A MALE OR ARE YOU A FEMALE?" What do I do in that situation? Do I pound them into the ground while I cry? Do I tell them to **** off? And get put up on youtube?

    People are absolutely ****ed up. And I say that as the staunchest believer in humanity. Women wanting to be men, stupid women. Men wanting to be women, perverts.

    Why do you even care? Because you have to have an opinion on everything you hear on your ****ty radio station, and your forum, and if only the world listened to me. I don't care. What you say hurts me. When you touch me up it scares me. When you call me mentally disturbed I worry that you're going to take a knife to me. But ultimately, you're a piece of ****ing ****
    My opinions come from the society I grew up in I suppose. I'm not sure what you are getting at with the comments about knives and molestation. If you suffered any abuse then very sorry about that but it certainly isn't my fault.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    You are ignorant. I know plenty of ignorant trans people. I know a few nice ignorant trans people. I know you're going to ****ing hate them. I don't like them because they're getting on with their lives with little insight into what the real world, and real opinion of them is. I don't like them because they draw attention just by being normal ****ing human beings living their life. And that's too much for me, because normal people have needs and wants, and loves and losts, and I just want to escape from all you ****ers who want to call me names for something that is entirely inconsequential. Living life is too much for me because you hateful, scaremongering, beyond adolescents don't want divergence.
    You certainly are throwing around a lot of labels. People have different opinions. Transsexuality is controversial to say the least. You are in a difficult position in this society. Things are surely improving in your favour though. When I was a kid being gay would have been basically meant getting evicted from normal society and treated like and outcast. Not so much these days it seems.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    men just ****ing disgust me.
    Men disgust you? Could that be an indication as to your motivation for change?


  • #311
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Reading this thread (which drifted from the original topic quite a bit), I think one problem is there is a tenancy to classify people on the "dark" side as soon as they raise any concern about any related topic being discussed, and to be on the "good" side you have to say amen to everything some posters think.

    For example:
    - Someone says there are political movements and a school of thoughts associated to gender neutral clothing which they they have concerns about -> they become some kind of fascist which want to regulate how people dress (the freedom to wear whatever you like has been quoted many times here to answer non-enthusiastic comments about gender neutral clothing, even though I don't believe anyone actually said the line of clothes in question should be banned and people not allowed to wear them).
    - Someone thinks people should use toilets based on actual physical attributes / birth certificate / whatever fix-enough criteria -> they become some kind of trans-phobic person with no empathy for others (even if they were more talking about gender fluid theories and people who want to keep changing identity)
    - etc.

    This kind of "you are with my to the bitter end or you are on the dark side" attitude makes proper discussions impossible.


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  • #312
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Reading this thread (which drifted from the original topic quite a bit), I think one problem is there is a tenancy to classify people on the "dark" side as soon as they raise any concern about any related topic being discussed, and to be on the "good" side you have to say amen to everything some posters think.

    For example:
    - Someone says there are political movements and a school of thoughts associated to gender neutral clothing which they they have concerns about -> they become some kind of fascist which want to regulate how people dress (the freedom to wear whatever you like has been quoted many times here to answer non-enthusiastic comments about gender neutral clothing, but I don't believe anyone actually said the line of clothes in question should be banned and people not allowed to wear them).
    - Someone thinks people should use toilets based on actual physical attributes / birth certificate / whatever fix-enough criteria -> they become some kind of trans-phobic person with no empathy for others (even if they were more talking about gender fluid theories and people who want to keep changing identity)
    - etc.

    This kind of "you are with my to the bitter end or you are on the dark side" attitude makes proper discussions impossible.

    Lets face it though, the minute someone attaches 'phobic' to the end of a word then there's no point in discussing it any more. It's a modern day Godwin really.

    You can have a reasonable debate or even a heated debate but when someone launches in with "you're x-phobic" or "that's x-phobic" to try and shut you down then it's going to start getting messy.


  • #313
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    smash wrote: »
    Lets face it though, the minute someone attaches 'phobic' to the end of a word then there's no point in discussing it any more. It's a modern day Godwin really.

    You can have a reasonable debate or even a heated debate but when someone launches in with "you're x-phobic" or "that's x-phobic" to try and shut you down then it's going to start getting messy.

    Very good short talk related to this from John Cleese: https://www.facebook.com/BigThinkdotcom/videos/10153596674478527/

    I like this quote: "If people cannot control their own emotions, then they have to start trying to control other people's behaviour".

    I think this is what is at play here: people can't accept different opinions because it hurts there own emotions and beliefs, and as a result they classify these opinions as x-phobic/fascist/etc to make them unacceptable. Then as you said it is the end of discussion and nothing constructive can come out of whatever is next.


  • #314
    Penny Tration
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,687 ✭✭✭✭Penny Tration


    Lyairea, I love your posts and think you're a great poster.

    I'm not gonna pretend to know how difficult it is to live in this world when you're trans. I'm sure it's incredibly difficult, from the little I've seen my MtF friend experience. I know she's going through hell, but is ultimately happier as she is now.


    I get that the ignorance is a pain in the ass. I agree with the "who cares?" line. Like really, it affects nobody but the person transitioning and their loved ones. Nobody else. so who cares? I don't. Trans, cis, whatever, it's all the same to me. People are people.

    I do, however, think it's unfair to say men disgust you. By the sounds of it, you've unfortunately had to deal with many arseholes, people wanting a grope because "lol she's trans" or whatever other nasty reason. But some women do this too (seriously, I had to drag a drunk friend away from a trans lady because she wanted to feel the trans lady's breasts, ignorant cow), and many men DON'T do this.


    Not all men are like this. Some are, but so are some women. There are many men in this thread and other threads about transgender people that are respectful and understanding.

    I just don't think they should all be in the "disgust" category. Most people of any gender are good people. I'm sure you know that, and I'm sure your post was written with emotion.

    I truly hope your life stops being sh!tty because from what I've seen on boards, you're a lovely person who deserves a happy life.


  • #315
    darkpagandeath
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,461 ✭✭✭✭darkpagandeath


    Hipster nonsense of the highest order.


  • #316
    The King of Moo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,207 ✭✭✭The King of Moo


    You can have a reasonable debate or even a heated debate but when someone launches in with "mutilation" or "mental illness" to try and shut you down then it's going to start getting messy.


  • #317
    Jack Killian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,663 ✭✭✭Jack Killian


    A quick question for everyone here.

    If the thread title was "unisex kids clothing", would there have been such a tangent ? Essentially that's what "gender neutral" means.

    I know that when I came into the thread the discussion had gone off on the "gender fluid" terminology, which bugs the bejaysus out of me because - IMHO - it's labelling people who were always in a spectrum in order to casually introduce the concept that people can choose what they are. But maybe it's just a crap choice of term because "fluid" makes it seem like it's implying "flexible", and male and female are binary, even though the stereotypical characterisations aren't.

    And yes, the clothing seems far from "neutral" and seems to be pyjama bottoms, but everyone's tastes differ; I'd even pass River Island and quietly think "well the more 'out' gay people have to shop somewhere". Flowery and lacy stuff has always seemed pointless to me, even the lace curtains and dining table stuff my mum used to have. So that's all about taste.

    But the thread title alone ? "Unisex" would be grand, right ?

    The labelling as "gender neutral" instead of the traditional "unisex" would, to me, seem like it's just marketing spin; a bit like "used car" became "pre-owned" - no meaningful difference but just a way to get a completely unjustified "edge" and seem "cool".

    Am I wrong ?


  • #318
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    A quick question for everyone here.

    If the thread title was "unisex kids clothing", would there have been such a tangent ? Essentially that's what "gender neutral" means.

    I know that when I came into the thread the discussion had gone off on the "gender fluid" terminology, which bugs the bejaysus out of me because - IMHO - it's labelling people who were always in a spectrum in order to casually introduce the concept that people can choose what they are. But maybe it's just a crap choice of term because "fluid" makes it seem like it's implying "flexible", and male and female are binary, even though the stereotypical characterisations aren't.

    And yes, the clothing seems far from "neutral" and seems to be pyjama bottoms, but everyone's tastes differ; I'd even pass River Island and quietly think "well the more 'out' gay people have to shop somewhere". Flowery and lacy stuff has always seemed pointless to me, even the lace curtains and dining table stuff my mum used to have. So that's all about taste.

    But the thread title alone ? "Unisex" would be grand, right ?

    The labelling as "gender neutral" instead of the traditional "unisex" would, to me, seem like it's just marketing spin; a bit like "used car" became "pre-owned" - no meaninful difference but just a way to get a completely unjustified "edge" and seem "cool".

    Am I wrong ?

    I think terminology plays a role, but not only.

    If you go back to the link, it is only showing boys wearing what would be considered by many as clothes / face painting which look girly..

    For things to be less "heated", I think the actual pictures should have shown both girls and boys wearing things which are really considered neutral (neutrally cut blue jeans, t-shirts which are neither obviously very pink or very blue and don't have printout saying "love" or "police", etc).


  • #319
    AnonoBoy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,559 ✭✭✭✭AnonoBoy


    stefanovich wrote: »
    I think this is very much about feminisation of men.

    Bollocks.

    Nobody is forcing anybody to make their kids wear gender neutral clothes.

    Dress your kid in a f*cking baby gro with a truck and a big f*cking pair of testicles on it if you're so worried about kids not being masculine.

    It's an option, not a compulsory fashion order.


  • #320
    Renegade Mechanic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,928 ✭✭✭Renegade Mechanic


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    No. That's either a bald faced lie or your ignorant of the situation. You have people born into generations of embarrassment, and you have people on this forum giving out about them. You have people born into generations of poverty, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into famine, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into political extremism, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into different sexualities, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born to be left handed, and you have people giving out about them. You have people born into different genders, and you have people giving out about them.

    And you have people who fit into the general mould of what life is supposed to be about. And even still a lot of them are not happy.
    And, as I said, these things can effect their mental health too, and generally they get much better help than trans folk do. I'm not trying to belittle your, or anyone else's position here, but far more people have accepted help for - and come to terms with - much, much worse thingd than feeling like they were given the wrong body. I refuse to considered "ignorant" by you or anyone else for pointing out the facts, like I have, and feeling that trans people have been betrayed by society at large.

    Lyaiera wrote: »
    Yeah. Therre are people helping. There are people helping every single night i go out. There are people helping when I go to the pub. There are people helping when I go for a game of pool. There are people helping when I go to Lidl. There are people helping when I go to my doctors. There are people helping when I stumble on the street.

    You know what? Those people aren't even ****ing helping. They're not deciding to be all ****ing Jesus like and help. They see someone, they get on with their lives. They see someone, maybe in need, and they do something. They don't want praise. They're not white knights. There are people who having a bad time, they try and make it a good time. They're feeling bad, see someone who is having a good time and say, "Can I have a good time too?" And the good person says, "Absolutely, join in." The doubtful, anti-intellectual, anti-joy, argumentative, hateful drinker sneers.
    Sadly, yoy are 100% correct. Again, it's unfortunate, but life is rather **** and I'm not sure I, or many others, would be here if we didn't face that fact. These people... They feel bad and want to feel good. They'll do anything to feel good. Tell any lie. Slam any person trying to tell them otherwise. You can see where I'm going here.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    I don't care if I'm a man or a woman. I honestly do not give a flying ****. Periods sound ****ing awful, for some woman. Childbirth, and raising children sounds amazing according to some parents. I would like a normal life, with a tracker mortgage and decking, the occasional half breakfast roll because I'm watching my weight. I would like a father to my children. I would like to win the euromillions.
    You don't care? Are you saying you're gender fluid? Because I'm sorry, but I just don't see how that can be worked into an effective society. I really don't. You'll need two pictures on your license for a start...

    Look, the uncomfortable question here is at what point does it make more sense to help yourself work in society over going through the war of forcing society to work around you?
    Because the people who say you can do the latter, are the one's doing the damage..
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    None of that is going to happen. And you know what else isn't going to happen, not for a few years yet anyway. None of you ignorant ****ers are going to mind your own ****ing business. Some of you are going to say get me help, the doctors are wrong, the psychologists are wrong, it's all politics, because you have a feeling in your ignorant gut about what's wrong and what's right.

    I have a feeling too. But my feelings don't matter. You can dismiss because I don't fit into your pretty little world where you hate. Boys wearing girls clothing! That's the end of the world. That's not normal. They're weird. They'll be bullied. I'll teach my child to bully them and when they don't bully that poor innocent I'll bully them because I have a gigantic ****ing stick up my ass, and it's irritating my prostate and it feels kinda good but it's not ****ing normal.

    Getting this emotional is not an argument. I do not hate, contrary to what some higher power may believe... FFS half of these people are attempting suicide after the fact, In the most tolerant parts of the world and it's hitting like you're choosing to blame us, because it's easier than blaming the people who wanted to feel good, and selfishly did so by signal virtuing. If I have a child and he wants to wear a dress at home, it's not happening. He can be unhappy for a while, but here's the thing. I have no control over what happens in school. None whatsoever over what the other boys will do to him, and thats just the sad reality, but I face it.
    One persons disapproval vs his entire class.
    Unhappiness at home, vs the guaranteed devastation of his school life and future.
    Life is unhappy, unhappy choices have to be made.
    Lyaiera wrote: »
    Who cares if someone is trans. Honestly, who gives a flying ****? You want me to use the mens bathroom? I'll use the mens bathroom, but when someone grabs like they've grabbed me in the bars I've been in what am I supposed to do? Can I stab them? Can I shoot them? Or according to the great god Pan should I just let them cop a feel because they're only being friendly?

    Should I go to the pub? And get felt up? Is that ok? Should I sit on a bench and get screamed at, "ARE YOU A MALE OR ARE YOU A FEMALE?" What do I do in that situation? Do I pound them into the ground while I cry? Do I tell them to **** off? And get put up on youtube?

    People are absolutely ****ed up. And I say that as the staunchest believer in humanity. Women wanting to be men, stupid women. Men wanting to be women, perverts.

    Why do you even care? Because you have to have an opinion on everything you hear on your ****ty radio station, and your forum, and if only the world listened to me. I don't care. What you say hurts me. When you touch me up it scares me. When you call me mentally disturbed I worry that you're going to take a knife to me. But ultimately, you're a piece of ****ing ****

    You are ignorant. I know plenty of ignorant trans people. I know a few nice ignorant trans people. I know you're going to ****ing hate them. I don't like them because they're getting on with their lives with little insight into what the real world, and real opinion of them is. I don't like them because they draw attention just by being normal ****ing human beings living their life. And that's too much for me, because normal people have needs and wants, and loves and losts, and I just want to escape from all you ****ers who want to call me names for something that is entirely inconsequential. Living life is too much for me because you hateful, scaremongering, beyond adolescents don't want divergence.

    Am I a woman? Well, I don't have periods, I have boobs. I have a female endocrine system because of medication, but I don't have a uterus. If I had my way when I was young enough I'd have hips, but I doubt that would be good enough to soothe you. Ultimately, I go to the pub and end up drinking with the owner at 2am over fine whiskeys while he talks about his business woes. On another day my sister will tell me to get off her blanket and give me a present of a fluffier blanket the next day. I'll go to Fota and take a picture of someone taking a picture of monkeys flinging ****. Am I a man or a woman? Maybe I'm a man, and men just ****ing disgust me. Maybe I'm a woman but without the bits. Maybe I'm an alien and going to have a pyramid for my grave.

    Ultimately, I'm going to live my ****ty life.

    Men disgust you? I'll do you the favour of not addressing that.
    As for the rest of the post, again, I don't hate. Nowhere have I alluded to that. I'm certainly not a knife wielding piece of ****. And if I didn't care, I'd say nothing. You are entitled to live your life, I didn't say you weren't. If someone is happy, fine. I don't agree with transgenderism, but I live and let live. Ironically enough, That's actually what tolerance is. You cannot say you tolerate something/one you like or agree with. It's only when something you disagree with, that your tolerance comes into question.

    Someone's happy, fine. But most aren't. And that's not right. And automatically blaming people like me without focusing on anything else isn't going to do anything either.

    I am truly sorry if you have taken a harder path in life. But I just can't ignore that people are pushing you, just so they can fill their selfish need to feel better about themselves. I certainly don't feel nearly as good, writing this.

    I'm going to leave it here.


  • #321
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    Jack Killian wrote: »
    A quick question for everyone here.

    If the thread title was "unisex kids clothing", would there have been such a tangent ? Essentially that's what "gender neutral" means.

    I know that when I came into the thread the discussion had gone off on the "gender fluid" terminology, which bugs the bejaysus out of me because - IMHO - it's labelling people who were always in a spectrum in order to casually introduce the concept that people can choose what they are. But maybe it's just a crap choice of term because "fluid" makes it seem like it's implying "flexible", and male and female are binary, even though the stereotypical characterisations aren't.

    And yes, the clothing seems far from "neutral" and seems to be pyjama bottoms, but everyone's tastes differ; I'd even pass River Island and quietly think "well the more 'out' gay people have to shop somewhere". Flowery and lacy stuff has always seemed pointless to me, even the lace curtains and dining table stuff my mum used to have. So that's all about taste.

    But the thread title alone ? "Unisex" would be grand, right ?

    The labelling as "gender neutral" instead of the traditional "unisex" would, to me, seem like it's just marketing spin; a bit like "used car" became "pre-owned" - no meaninful difference but just a way to get a completely unjustified "edge" and seem "cool".

    Am I wrong ?

    Fair enough. I think my approach to the subject was, "why is any clothing necessarily gendered, except insofar as it covers or doesn't cover the genitalia?", and "what exactly is the issue with people wearing whatever they want if it makes them happy and doesn't scare children or leave skid marks on my white upholstery?". I also think that kids legitimately have a say in what goes on their body, and the parents' role is largely to make sure their children and clothing are clean and the clothing is more or less uncomplicated (befitting normal play). Whether it is pink seems utterly without importance in the grand scheme, honestly.


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  • #322
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Speedwell wrote: »
    Fair enough. I think my approach to the subject was, "why is any clothing necessarily gendered, except insofar as it covers or doesn't cover the genitalia?"
    Because the designer as designed it based on a size and shape of a model who would have characteristics of the male or female form! It's not that hard to understand.
    Speedwell wrote: »
    and "what exactly is the issue with people wearing whatever they want if it makes them happy and doesn't scare children or leave skid marks on my white upholstery?".
    Why are you trying to say people can wear what they want but then at the same time trying to protect children from what adults wear?
    Speedwell wrote: »
    I also think that kids legitimately have a say in what goes on their body, and the parents' role is largely to make sure their children and clothing are clean and the clothing is more or less uncomplicated (befitting normal play). Whether it is pink seems utterly without importance in the grand scheme, honestly.
    Well that's not entirely true. Parents buy clothing for their children so they'll look well. A soccer jersey is functional for 99% of wear, but you're not going to go to an expensive restaurant for an event and drag little johnny along in a Man Utd jersey and trackie bottoms now are you? And lets drop the "it's pink" stuff here. We're not necessarily talking about colour, we're talking about style and design.


  • #323
    Speedwell
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    smash wrote: »
    Because the designer as designed it based on a size and shape of a model who would have characteristics of the male or female form! It's not that hard to understand.

    I addressed this whole pages ago.
    Why are you trying to say people can wear what they want but then at the same time trying to protect children from what adults wear?

    It was an effort to be humorous. Since you are tone deaf, I will spell it out, "so long as the clothing does not constitute active abuse to the vulnerable", which it is hard to imagine someone's clothing doing at all.
    Well that's not entirely true. Parents buy clothing for their children so they'll look well. A soccer jersey is functional for 99% of wear, but you're not going to go to an expensive restaurant for an event and drag little johnny along in a Man Utd jersey and trackie bottoms now are you? And lets drop the "it's pink" stuff here. We're not necessarily talking about colour, we're talking about style and design.

    If you're going to an expensive restaurant for an event, I am not sure why you'd drag little Johnny along in anything but what he will wear at the sitter's. And we aren't necessarily talking about "I belong to a church choir [branch of the military, hospital staff, pool membership] but reserve the right not to wear the robes [uniform, scrubs, swimsuit] because of personal freedom" silliness, either.


  • #324
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Speedwell wrote: »
    I addressed this whole pages ago.
    And I haven't read it.
    Speedwell wrote: »
    It was an effort to be humorous. Since you are tone deaf, I will spell it out, "so long as the clothing does not constitute active abuse to the vulnerable", which it is hard to imagine someone's clothing doing at all.
    I'm not sure you understand what 'tone deaf' means.
    Speedwell wrote: »
    If you're going to an expensive restaurant for an event, I am not sure why you'd drag little Johnny along in anything but what he will wear at the sitter's.
    Address the point. The point was to bring a child out to an event, not dump them with a sitter.


  • #325
    Michah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 100 ✭✭Michah


    Lyaiera wrote: »
    Maybe I'm a man, and men just ****ing disgust me.

    Why do circa 3.5 billion people disgust you?


  • #326
    Samaris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,544 ✭✭✭Samaris


    I think that last point was "why make the child dress up more so than you would if you were leaving him with a carer for the evening just because you're going to a fancy restaurant."


  • #327
    smash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 34,808 ✭✭✭✭smash


    Samaris wrote: »
    I think that last point was "why make the child dress up more so than you would if you were leaving him with a carer for the evening just because you're going to a fancy restaurant."
    For the same reason that you wouldn't say, rock up to a wedding wearing a shell-suit!


  • #328
    Two Tone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 513 ✭✭✭Two Tone


    I assume they were being sarcastic/ironic with the "men disgust me" comment. As in, "maybe I'm transgender because men disgust me".


  • #329
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Whats the agenda ?

    That the entire concept of gender identity should essentially be abolished.


  • #330
    Shenshen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Reading this thread (which drifted from the original topic quite a bit), I think one problem is there is a tenancy to classify people on the "dark" side as soon as they raise any concern about any related topic being discussed, and to be on the "good" side you have to say amen to everything some posters think.

    For example:
    - Someone says there are political movements and a school of thoughts associated to gender neutral clothing which they they have concerns about -> they become some kind of fascist which want to regulate how people dress (the freedom to wear whatever you like has been quoted many times here to answer non-enthusiastic comments about gender neutral clothing, even though I don't believe anyone actually said the line of clothes in question should be banned and people not allowed to wear them).
    - Someone thinks people should use toilets based on actual physical attributes / birth certificate / whatever fix-enough criteria -> they become some kind of trans-phobic person with no empathy for others (even if they were more talking about gender fluid theories and people who want to keep changing identity)
    - etc.

    This kind of "you are with my to the bitter end or you are on the dark side" attitude makes proper discussions impossible.

    Doesn't that cut both ways? People looking for clothes that don't immediately identify the wearer as either a male or a female child are accused of child abuse in this very thread.


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  • #331
    Bob24
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    AnonoBoy wrote: »

    Nobody is forcing anybody to make their kids wear gender neutral clothes.

    Of course not and I don't think anyone said that. But the OP also has every right to question whether in their opinion this particular example is indeed gender neutral.

    We haven't seen the whole product line, but for what is meant to be gender neutral, it is strange for the promotion material not to show a single girl.
    And garments which are all pink or with "love" written all over (only cues which society would see as girly). It is not stupid to ask "why not a girl wearing a blue t-shirt saying "police"? And to wonder if even that would really be neutral or just playing with the social norm.


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