should Heroin users be locked up?

looking_around · 27-05-2016 08:59AM

Something to read. Heroin addiction isn't actually what ruins lives, criminalizing people for a health issue ruins lives.

"
Heroin is believed to be responsible for substantial lost productivity, however the effects of the drug itself are often confused with the effects of the "junkie" lifestyle. The primary barrier to heroin addicts working is not so much the effect of the drug itself, but of the lifestyle which surrounds illicit heroin use, with the constant need to "hustle" to get funds and "score" the next hit of street heroin. This lifestyle is very disruptive, and is incompatible with most occupations ."

http://www.idmu.co.uk/hemployment.htm

FDA has also allowed a new implant to treat opioid addiction. I'm for it if and only if, it's offered as one of many treatment options and not as an alternative to jail.

http://gizmodo.com/fda-approves-first-implant-to-treat-opioid-addiction-1778994654?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

Get off your dream view of prison. ..it's not how things work.

Lady is a tramp · 27-05-2016 09:10AM

looking_around wrote: »

Get off your dream view of prison. ..it's not how things work.

I had to laugh at it.

It's not even how rehab centres work. I've done the rounds of them. People (including me) drink there. Sex is rampant, I've been in rehab with a guy who got crabs from an affair in The Rutland! I'm sure people use in those places too. At a recent recovery meeting, a girl told how she had to pay her cocaine/heroin dealer 4k over the weekend, and that wasn't half her debt. And she still bought off him on the day. As an in-patient in rehab.

I'm sure if these things can't be controlled in rehab facilities. They sure as hell can't be controlled in a prison!

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 27-05-2016 09:14AM

Why are they in rehab if they don't want to come off drugs

Lady is a tramp · 27-05-2016 09:18AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Why are they in rehab if they don't want to come off drugs

Why was I there if I didn't want to stop drinking? And yet I did it on the program.

Believe me, I'm not stupid. I'm an intelligent girl.

I understand more about addiction than most therapists. I think I'll probably work in the field some day.

It's sad but until you've been there. You really can't understand. Some awful sad things are behind most addictions.

looking_around · 27-05-2016 09:22AM

LexieOnRale wrote: »

Why are they in rehab if they don't want to come off drugs

Court ordered.

Or not enough separation from old life style (too many connections for it to be effective ).

You cant force people to quit, you can at least stop punishing them for what they do to themselves. And stop the hypocrisy between alcohol and other drugs.

Winterlong · 27-05-2016 09:22AM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Why was I there if I didn't want to stop drinking? And yet I did it on the program.

Believe me, I'm not stupid. I'm an intelligent girl.

I understand more about addiction than most therapists. I think I'll probably work in the field some day.

It's sad but until you've been there. You really can't understand. Some awful sad things are behind most addictions.

But a key to getting clean is that you must want to get clean. Been committed can work for some people but the success rate is low I would guess.
The best way to get clean has to be to want to get clean IMO.

Lady is a tramp · 27-05-2016 09:39AM

Winterlong wrote: »

But a key to getting clean is that you must want to get clean. Been committed can work for some people but the success rate is low I would guess.
The best way to get clean has to be to want to get clean IMO.

Well I'd say you understand very very little about addiction. Sorry but it's true.

Winterlong · 27-05-2016 09:43AM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Well I'd say you understand very very little about addiction. Sorry but it's true.

Please dont suppose you know my, or my families current and past experience with addiction. Thank you.

qo2cj1dsne8y4k · 27-05-2016 09:52AM

Lady is a tramp wrote: »

Well I'd say you understand very very little about addiction. Sorry but it's true.

How do you know? He/she may not be the addicted but may come from the other side affected by addiction. Everyone in an addicts family is affected. Not just the addicted. When a parent goes to rehab for drinking because they're told if they don't they'll die, spends 3 months getting sober, taking their child back when they get out, and then going on the tear again, not even a day after being released, it's the child that needs the pity and the understanding.
I understand addiction is an illness. But it is an illness brought on yourself. A child growing up with watching his parents destroy themselves - they're the innocent victims.

The same way a heroin addict banging gear in broad daylight not caring who picks up their used syringe SHOULD be held accountable for their actions.
Just because they are an addict doesn't mean everyone else matters any less.

Criminal acts, be they done sober or under the influence, are criminal acts and should be treated as such. An addict passed out on the street? They need medical help. An addict robbing a shop? Lock them up. They have no regard for their own personal safety, that's fine we can tolerate that, but not at the risk of everyone else's safety.

Sofiztikated · 27-05-2016 09:58AM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok excuse the naivety on my behalf but i dont really know what prisons are like inside but here is my take on it:

Drug addicts on the outside - looked on as parasites by many and waste of space.

Not a crime in itself, and possibly says more about the "many."

Drug addicts in prison: mix with other people and have a regime and some kind of order.

Yeah, mix with other people, such as criminals. That's a great start.

Drug addicts on the outside: most homeless

I'd like a source on that, please. Yes, homelessness is a problem, and a lot of our homeless are addicts. But not all addicts are homeless.

Drug addicts in prison: shelter, food, heat, gym etc

This part of your post is true.

Drug addicts on the outside: long waiting list for medical treatment

Long list for everyone, I'm afraid.

Drug addicts in prison: seen quickly for medical help and programs they can go on to help them kick the habit.

Seen "quickly" for urgent medical care, there are programs to help them quit, but there are programs on the outside too.

Drug addicts on the outside: Danger of getting beat up or worse

Unfortunately this happens. Why not lock up the offender/attacker, rather than the victim?

Drug addict in prison: I presume the prison officers would break things up?

Don't assume. Don't get me wrong, the officers do a decent job, but unless everyone is in confinement, the mixing you talked about earlier? Yeah, violent criminals are those they are mixing with.

Drug addict on outside: most probably all day with nothing to do, excluded from places such as libraries etc- and no-one will employ them, the day most probably feels long and they might take drugs to make the day go quicker and see them through the boredom

Why not tackle the problem rather than just say, "Well **** it, you're a lost cause, time to hide you away?"

Drug Addicts in prison: - I presume they are given some kind of work to do in there and can visit the prison library and play games like snooker etc with other inmates.

If you think it's a long day on the outside, when you can go and do what you want, what do you think it's like when you can't? There's that presume again.

maybe if they get on well in prison, clean themselves up, work hard that when they are let out again they dont all of them have to re-offend. They might be given accommodation when they get out and a job or take and pass a course in prison which could give them a qualification for when they get out?

Unfortunately the stats and facts don't back up your maybes and mights. The recidivism rate in Ireland is 62%, and 2/3rds of that is within the first 6 months of release. Why do you think that is?

I am sure there are other benefits (even though prison is supposed to be punishment for criminals)

- taking all that into account is it still best to just give them drugs free, and supply clean needles and a place for them to shoot up and then let them on there way back onto the streets ... what sounds best for them?

I'm still going for the second option. A place with clean needles, clean drugs, medical help, including counselling and treatment programs, and without putting more of a strain on the already stretched prison system? Helping people get better, rather than punishing them for not being perfect?

They're not just junkies. They are people. They have names. They have feelings. They have their good sides and their bad.

But it seems to be a case of "**** you, cos I'm alright, Jack."

Story Bud? · 27-05-2016 09:59AM

It really doesn't take a genius to work out that if you don't want to give something up, it will be a hell of a lot more difficult to give it up.

Winterlong said nothing wrong. I bloody well hate when people get that "well you mustn't know how it feels" thing thrown at them. It smacks of ignorance. And on here I've often seen it thrown at people who I know well have been through the things they're discussing.

BalcombeSt4 · 27-05-2016 12:13PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

Its still at the end of the day illegal to do drugs and to be in possession of. And what do we do in this country (or supposed to do) when people are caught doing serious illegal things? That's right we dish out or should, a fine or a custodial prison sentence. Prisons are there for a reason, laws are there for a reason, being out of your mind on drugs and having no intention of getting off them is a selfish outlook on life and if you have no intention to kick the habit.. Or can't then maybe you should be forced to in a way for your own welfare and other's

Oh ffs. :rolleyes:

The fact you can't even grasp the simple point I was trying to make says a lot about you.

Andy From Sligo · 27-05-2016 01:04PM

I can't grasp the fact that being in possession of illegal drugs and taking illegal drugs is at the end of a criminal offence but some people on here feels if people break the law they shouldn't face a custodial sentence. What other criminal act would people like to see others get away with and just help them to stay doing what they are doing or in fact help them to carry on breaking the law and not get off the stuff and kill them in the end with letting them shoot up and put poison in their bodies.

If there were special places for these users to shoot up and given clean syringes and then sent on their way what help is that? Yes it might help clear the people shooting up on the streets in broad daylight and the issue of dirty used syringes on pavements and gutters but what else? Nothing, it won't help the users get off the stuff, it will not stop them from doing things whilst they are high, it won't stop them of putting more poison in their bodies, in fact if anything it might encourage more to take it up if they know there is a special place they can go to and shoot up freely

kidneyfan · 27-05-2016 01:38PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

If there were special places for these users to shoot up and given clean syringes and then sent on their way what help is that? Yes it might help clear the people shooting up on the streets in broad daylight and the issue of dirty used syringes on pavements and gutters but what else?

And dirty used syringes going into people's arms , and baby formula being injected and hepatitis.

I don't think that drug addiction is purely a health issue but the health of addicts would improve if they had clean heroin.

mayway · 27-05-2016 01:39PM

Yes. Next question.

Bongalongherb · 27-05-2016 01:43PM

The war on drugs has truly failed in every way. The judges just see too many heroin addicts every court day and if they had to imprison every Heroin user then we would need a few hundred new prisons. As the pic below shows... it's always a suspended sentence... That was from 'The Guards' TV RTE. It's the same everywhere.

mayway · 27-05-2016 02:13PM

Yes, but mandatory 10 year sentences for users and dealers will clear it off the streets in no time.

Bongalongherb · 27-05-2016 02:17PM

mayway wrote: »

Yes, but mandatory 10 year sentences for users and dealers will clear it off the streets in no time.

It will never happen as we don't even have a new prison here in Dublin, so, if a new prison is not forthcoming in Dublin then there is no way they will build a new one in smaller cities or towns. The will isn't there. Politicians have more pressing issues in their reality than this reality we live in unfortunately.

unfortunately · 27-05-2016 02:21PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I can't grasp the fact that being in possession of illegal drugs and taking illegal drugs is at the end of a criminal offence but some people on here feels if people break the law they shouldn't face a custodial sentence.

So you would follow any law regardless of whether you thought it was unjust or unfair? You can't just say "It's the law that if they take heroin we can remove their freedom and rights, therefore lets take away their freedom!"

I believe that the law regarding all drugs in unjust, I don't think the state should have authority to punish me for what I do with my body that harms no-one else.

I just don't get your authoritarianism, taking away their rights because you don't approve of their choices; paternally suggestion that you know what's good for them. They are adults - let them make their own choices, even if it harms them!

Of course, it would be good if no-one took heroin and nobody was addicted to any drug, but authoritarianism is not the answer. I don't smoke tobacco, makes me physically sick, I don't think anyone else should smoke it - half of all smokers will die due to their addiction - but people are free to make their own choices.

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

If there were special places for these users to shoot up and given clean syringes and then sent on their way what help is that? Yes it might help clear the people shooting up on the streets in broad daylight and the issue of dirty used syringes on pavements and gutters but what else? Nothing, it won't help the users get off the stuff, it will not stop them from doing things whilst they are high, it won't stop them of putting more poison in their bodies, in fact if anything it might encourage more to take it up if they know there is a special place they can go to and shoot up freely

Most harms caused by drugs are because they are illegal.

Firstly, it is stigmatised - you are not a victim of addiction but a criminal, (that some people would like to see arbitrarily imprisoned it seems). That automatically puts a barrier up to giving people help.

Illegality means that criminals control supply; criminal gangs earn income from selling drugs just like the prohibition of alcohol enriched organised crime in the States. There is no regulation of quality of the drugs so they are highly impure resulting in deaths and more harms that the pure drug itself. Similarly, the strength and dosage of drugs is unknown leading to overdose.

If we had monitored injection rooms; we could give pure known amounts of the drug safely. There would be no sharing of needles spreading hepatitis or HIV or abandoned needles in streets. The drug user would remain in room and monitored. The program would undercut gangs source of income. People would be in an environment where we could give them information and support - they'd be in the system rather than on the street in a doorway.

Your point about other non-users taking up heroin because there are injecting rooms - would you do that? It's not like heroin is impossible to get if you want it - I'm sure you could walk up to any user on the street and offer to give them some heroin if they could hook you up.

Right now criminal gangs sell heroin to anyone, including teenagers and children. They hang around streets and parks and apartments. There is no vetting or medical opinion if you have money they sell. The illegality also means they push up prices and exploit people's addiction; it's a horrible system; users are also subjected to violence and intimidation but they can't seek any help because they themselves are classed as criminals.

If your goal is to reduce addicts then legalise and regulate and address the medical and socioeconomic factors. Locking people up doesn't stop addiction. Making heroin illegal makes it value to unaccountable unregulated criminal gangs that have no scruples about selling to anyone or exploiting them.

looking_around · 27-05-2016 02:33PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I can't grasp the fact that being in possession of illegal drugs and taking illegal drugs is at the end of a criminal offence but some people on here feels if people break the law they shouldn't face a custodial sentence. What other criminal act would people like to see others get away with and just help them to stay doing what they are doing or in fact help them to carry on breaking the law and not get off the stuff and kill them in the end with letting them shoot up and put poison in their bodies.

If there were special places for these users to shoot up and given clean syringes and then sent on their way what help is that? Yes it might help clear the people shooting up on the streets in broad daylight and the issue of dirty used syringes on pavements and gutters but what else? Nothing, it won't help the users get off the stuff, it will not stop them from doing things whilst they are high, it won't stop them of putting more poison in their bodies, in fact if anything it might encourage more to take it up if they know there is a special place they can go to and shoot up freely

We want personal harm to no longer be a criminal offense.
We want the hypocrisy that is the drug war to end.

We want safety first and foremost.

What is so hard to understand?

Laws can be changed! Drugs were not always illegal.

The alcohol prohibitionary times in the US, shows that are things are bad because they are illegal.

Ascii · 27-05-2016 02:40PM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

Yes. Anna Nicole Smith was the image of John Lennon!

You mean lennon did drugs ??? What rock have I been living under

ohnonotgmail · 27-05-2016 02:43PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I can't grasp the fact that being in possession of illegal drugs and taking illegal drugs is at the end of a criminal offence but some people on here feels if people break the law they shouldn't face a custodial sentence. What other criminal act would people like to see others get away with and just help them to stay doing what they are doing or in fact help them to carry on breaking the law and not get off the stuff and kill them in the end with letting them shoot up and put poison in their bodies.

....

I hate to break it to you but not every criminal offence carries a custodial sentence.

Dr Crayfish · 27-05-2016 02:53PM

mayway wrote: »

Yes, but mandatory 10 year sentences for users and dealers will clear it off the streets in no time.

What if your son or brother or sister or someone close to you ended up smoking some heroin one time and was arrested? You'd still favour the 10 year lock up?
I really hope you're joking.
All walks of life use drugs. People want drugs, the users should never be punished.

Andy From Sligo · 27-05-2016 03:11PM

mayway wrote: »

Yes, but mandatory 10 year sentences for users and dealers will clear it off the streets in no time.

thank god the penny drops with some people.

If you clear users off the street then the dealers have no market hence dry up , or just peddle softer drugs instead.

Andy From Sligo · 27-05-2016 03:11PM

I dont have the answer about how many more prisons would have to be built and how - ship some prisoners over to alcatraz style island or somewhere? or let some prisoners out on early release if they pose no danger to the public - i dunno, but lets not bring the old chestnut up every time about there are not enough prisons or prison spaces i get sick of hearing it.

gormdubhgorm · 27-05-2016 03:15PM

Put them all on Spike island and let them detox there for however long it takes.

gormdubhgorm · 27-05-2016 03:17PM

Dr Crayfish wrote: »

What if your son or brother or sister or someone close to you ended up smoking some heroin one time and was arrested? You'd still favour the 10 year lock up?
I really hope you're joking.
All walks of life use drugs. People want drugs, the users should never be punished.

If I am honest yes I would. 100%

Andy From Sligo · 27-05-2016 03:22PM

I know drugs are rife in prison still - but are prisoners just at risk of getting dodgy gear mixed with god knows what in there as they are on the outside?

unfortunately · 27-05-2016 03:28PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

mayway wrote:

Yes, but mandatory 10 year sentences for users and dealers will clear it off the streets in no time.

thank god the penny drops with some people.

If you clear users off the street then the dealers have no market hence dry up , or just peddle softer drugs instead.

I repeat, I don't understand your authoritarianism, you can just imprison people because you disagree with their choices or think you know whats best for them. These are people, adults, and if they smoke or inject heroin you want them locked up for years?

What is your justification for doing this? Justify your position. Even if it worked, which it wouldn't, we still shouldn't do it because it's wrong to be a tyrant locking people up based on your own opinions.

And your plan will has failed; harsh punishments don't stop addiction. It's obvious, look at the causes and circumstances of addiction and drug use and abuse and you will see that locking someone up does nothing.

looking_around · 27-05-2016 03:32PM

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

I dont have the answer about how many more prisons would have to be built and how - ship some prisoners over to alcatraz style island or somewhere? or let some prisoners out on early release if they pose no danger to the public - i dunno, but lets not bring the old chestnut up every time about there are not enough prisons or prison spaces i get sick of hearing it.

You cant "clear" users off the streets. Most drug users are not addicts.
I repeat most users are not addicts.

Btw, the entire human race are drug users in some form. Shall we ban anti-depressants? Pain medication? Alcohol? Nicotine? Caffiene? Chocolate? Chamomile? Green tea?

I could go on.......

But you're stuck on, "them junkies and them bad drugs"..most users aren't junkies, most users don't get caught...therefore there's ALWAYS going to be demand.
And as long as there is demand, there will be supply.

should Heroin users be locked up?

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