Ireland and Nuclear Power

Consonata · 18-05-2016 3:28pm #1

I know everyone who thinks about Ireland and Nuclear power, Christy Moore and Carnsore point isn't too far from their minds, but isn't it about time we looked into it again.

Nuclear Power has come a long way since Chernobyl and now there is the possibility of using Thorium, a fuel source which is 4 times as abundant and many times as much efficient. Yes, there is a large cost factor to be thought about but if we were able to build one, it would more than cover our energy needs for the moment. We might even be able to close that ghastly Coal plant in Shannon and the Turf-fired plants in Offaly, so we can actually have a fairly eco-friendly energy system.

Apart from the cost, is there any significant arguments against us having a Nuclear Plant.

ted1 · 18-05-2016 3:30pm

Consonata wrote: »

I know everyone who thinks about Ireland and Nuclear power, Christy Moore and Carnsore point isn't too far from their minds, but isn't it about time we looked into it again.

Nuclear Power has come a long way since Chernobyl and now there is the possibility of using Thorium, a fuel source which is 4 times as abundant and many times as much efficient. Yes, there is a large cost factor to be thought about but if we were able to build one, it would more than cover our energy needs for the moment. We might even be able to close that ghastly Coal plant in Shannon and the Turf-fired plants in Offaly, so we can actually have a fairly eco-friendly energy system.

Apart from the cost, is there any significant arguments against us having a Nuclear Plant.

If it goes offline we'll lose 50%+ of our generation

Consonata · 18-05-2016 3:43pm

ted1 wrote: »

If it goes offline we'll lose 50%+ of our generation

We import 85% of energy as it currently stands. €5.7 Billion is spent on energy imports annually. We would nearly wipe out the construction costs of it within 5 ish years

timmyntc · 18-05-2016 4:00pm

ted1 wrote: »

If it goes offline we'll lose 50%+ of our generation

Same could be said about all sorts of electricity generation.

If there's no wind in the country we'll lose X%+ of our generation
If our coal plants go offline...
etc

Nuclear plants, like many methods of electricity generation, aren't designed to 'go offline' just like that.
Only with very poor management, serious human error and lots of cutting corners would something like that happen

Mind you, we are in Ireland...

Sam Russell · 18-05-2016 4:05pm

We cannot build Dart Underground, nor Metro North, nor can we even agree where to build a National Children's Hospital let alone build it. How long did Tallaght Hospital take to build?

I think the Nuclear Option means other things to most politicians - so no chance.

domrush · 18-05-2016 4:08pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

We cannot build Dart Underground, nor Metro North, nor can we even agree where to build a National Children's Hospital let alone build it. How long did Tallaght Hospital take to build?

I think the Nuclear Option means other things to most politicians - so no chance.

Would construction of such a project be put in the hands of the government or a semi state such as ESB? They do have a better track record at getting things done

Sam Russell · 18-05-2016 4:32pm

domrush wrote: »

Would construction of such a project be put in the hands of the government or a semi state such as ESB? They do have a better track record at getting things done

Yes, they do. However, such a project would run into all sorts of competition rules that could well kill it unless it was funded outside of any Government control.

Would they ask for tenders, or suggest it would get priority status?

How long would construction take?

What about the 'Nuclear to Sea' or 'NoNuclear' protesters that would spring out of the undergrowth? Would Christie Moore agree not to sing about it?

It would have to be built near Moneypoint to use the existing Rirgrid infrastructure.

Markcheese · 18-05-2016 5:05pm

timmyntc wrote:

Nuclear plants, like many methods of electricity generation, aren't designed to 'go offline' just like that. Only with very poor management, serious human error and lots of cutting corners would something like that happen

Dont nuclear power plants (like all other power plants) go offline all the time, in fact I think they go off line more often because the safety margins are tighter..
Plus you need spinning reserve to equal your biggest generator.. so even if you built one you'd need something else as big running simultaneously as back up.
They're not cheap, just look at hinkley C,
Yes when thorium reactors become common that may things,but they've been just around the corner for 50 years so dont hold your breath..

plodder · 18-05-2016 5:18pm

There's been some reports that the European Commission are getting interested in it again.

http://sputniknews.com/europe/20160517/1039761181/europe-nuclear-power-plants.html

I personally wouldn't have a problem if the economics could be made to stack up and somebody else agreed to process the waste for us. But, it's hard to see the political system here being able to cope with the idea.

MarkAnthony · 18-05-2016 5:21pm

A country surrounded by the sea and never a day goes by where it's not blowing a gale and we want to build a Nuclear reactor?

Zebra3 · 18-05-2016 6:54pm

Consonata wrote: »

I know everyone who thinks about Ireland and Nuclear power, Christy Moore and Carnsore point isn't too far from their minds, but isn't it about time we looked into it again.

Nuclear Power has come a long way since Chernobyl and now there is the possibility of using Thorium, a fuel source which is 4 times as abundant and many times as much efficient. Yes, there is a large cost factor to be thought about but if we were able to build one, it would more than cover our energy needs for the moment. We might even be able to close that ghastly Coal plant in Shannon and the Turf-fired plants in Offaly, so we can actually have a fairly eco-friendly energy system.

Apart from the cost, is there any significant arguments against us having a Nuclear Plant.

How close to your house are yourself and other supporters of this project prepared to have this nuclear plant?

Consonata · 18-05-2016 8:45pm

Thorium is much less dangerous than Uranium plus it leaves next to no nuclear waste left behind. I don't really care where it's built so long as it's not eyesore on the landscape. I know how safe these things are especially considering Irelands Geological position I.e not sitting right on top of a hot earthquake zone. You could build it in a really really low population density area and we only b really need the one. If we had two we would be laughing to the bank at this stage as a major exporter of energy.

ted1 · 18-05-2016 10:34pm

Consonata wrote: »

We import 85% of energy as it currently stands. €5.7 Billion is spent on energy imports annually. We would nearly wipe out the construction costs of it within 5 ish years

We import primary fuel. If we built a nuclear plant it would be about 2GW . If that shut down we could have a brown out or black out. What does importing have to do with my comment?

We would still need to import uranium , plutonium or thorium and more than likely export the waste at a huge cost. Then after several years no one will import the waste and well either need to shut it down or build a waste processing plant

ted1 · 18-05-2016 10:37pm

timmyntc wrote: »

Same could be said about all sorts of electricity generation.

Nuclear plants, like many methods of electricity generation, aren't designed to 'go offline' just like that.
Only with very poor management, serious human error and lots of cutting corners would something like that happen

Mind you, we are in Ireland...

They go offline the whole time, a nuclear plant would have a larger output than the existing plants and that would cause the problem

afatbollix · 18-05-2016 10:40pm

Its going to cost €50 billion to build the new one in the UK. It will be the most expensive building on earth.

They are decommissioning the first plant in Scotland and that is going to cost over €30 billion. Everything has to be taken apart and put in containers and concrete poured in and will be buried. Everything from gloves to fork lifts have to be buried in concrete and left for our kids to deal with.

Nothing is cheap about Nuclear power.

Water John · 18-05-2016 10:44pm

Thorium has variable output TMK. I can't remember the response rate but think its quite quick.
We give RE priority of access. Then the Thorium plant takes up the variable slack.
I think that the Govn't/EirGrid might be allowed build it, in that context. It is the base supply.

Consonata · 18-05-2016 10:45pm

ted1 wrote:

We would still need to import uranium , plutonium or thorium and more than likely export the waste at a huge cost. Then after several years no one will import the waste and well either need to shut it down or build a waste processing plant

As I have said above, Thorium is 4 times as abundant as the others, thus making it much cheaper to import. It produces very little waste because, unlike Uranium which requires a certain isotope within a block of Uranium, you can use almost all of Thorium in the reaction.

It is a cleaner form of energy than much of what we have now. God knows what crap those coal plants and peat plants are belching into the sky.

And as to your first point, it is very unlikely that the whole plant would shut down, it would have back up reactors to continue the power output while others are being serviced.

ted1 · 18-05-2016 10:48pm

Consonata wrote: »

As I have said above, Thorium is 4 times as abundant as the others, thus making it much cheaper to import. It produces very little waste because, unlike Uranium which requires a certain isotope within a block of Uranium, you can use almost all of Thorium in the reaction.

It is a cleaner form of energy than much of what we have now. God knows what crap those coal plants and peat plants are belching into the sky.

And as to your first point, it is very unlikely that the whole plant would shut down, it would have back up reactors to continue the power output while others are being serviced.

Backup generators , backup transformers , backup grid connections ?

Cheaper to import ? What about exporting ? Less waste but still a significantly amount

ted1 · 18-05-2016 10:52pm

My suggestion has always been to co locate a reactor in an existing compound, e,g if Hinckley point eventually gets the go ahead then build a reactor with a DC Link directly into the Irish grid, it would significantly reduce costs and would actually be operational within s few years at giving the go a head

Water John · 18-05-2016 10:52pm

Thorium reactors are what should have been originally developed but did not suit the military.
I think there was one in USA.
Robert O'Sullivan formerly of UL is very involved in this technology.

Consonata · 18-05-2016 10:53pm

afatbollix wrote:

They are decommissioning the first plant in Scotland and that is going to cost over â‚¬30 billion. Everything has to be taken apart and put in containers and concrete poured in and will be buried. Everything from gloves to fork lifts have to be buried in concrete and left for our kids to deal with.

That plant that you are talking was built when Chernobyl was barely a twinkle in Stalins eye. You surely should see that reactor designs and the way fuel is used has changed radically since then

Consonata · 18-05-2016 10:56pm

ted1 wrote:

Cheaper to import ? What about exporting ? Less waste but still a significantly amount

It is two orders of magnitude smaller than its Uranium alternative, completely eliminating the need for large scale storage of the waste

ted1 · 18-05-2016 10:59pm

Consonata wrote: »

It is two orders of magnitude smaller than its Uranium alternative, completely eliminating the need for large scale storage of the waste

Define large scale and put a cost to it with references that support it

Water John · 18-05-2016 11:10pm

Have not watched this, but heard the guy on with PK.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IkKzLSthog

Markcheese · 18-05-2016 11:16pm

Cool , we should build a thorium reactor, where else is there one, how much do they cost... ?

Water John · 18-05-2016 11:21pm

'Ask not what has been done and why, rather what not has been done and why not.'

But it has been done already.

Nekarsulm · 18-05-2016 11:23pm

I thought we couldn't build a nuclear power station without a referendum to change some clause written into the Constitution back in the Carnsore Point days?

Water John · 18-05-2016 11:27pm

Don't remember any ref.
Not to build was the right decision at the time but mainly to do with the tech proposed and the waste issue.

Very little waste from Thorium and gone in a relatively short time frame.
Thus can be stored.

ted1 · 18-05-2016 11:37pm

Water John wrote: »

Don't remember any ref.
Not to build was the right decision at the time but mainly to do with the tech proposed and the waste issue.

Very little waste from Thorium and gone in a relatively short time frame.
Thus can be stored.

"Very little " and "short term" are not quantifiable and indicate you have no real idea what you are talking about.

GarIT · 18-05-2016 11:47pm

Consonata wrote: »

Apart from the cost, is there any significant arguments against us having a Nuclear Plant.

Ireland's power grid isn't capable of transporting large amounts of power long distances. If we wanted one main power source for the whole country we would need to spend billions on underground cabling or deal with pilon protesters on a huge scale.

Consonata · 18-05-2016 11:51pm

ted1 wrote: »

"Very little " and "short term" are not quantifiable and indicate you have no real idea what you are talking about.

The fact that you are so sceptical of Thorium shows that "you have no real idea what you are talking about" as you so eloquently put it.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/thorium.aspx#References

This details it's abundance, it's positives in relation to how difficult it is to turn into a weapon. How it's waste ,U233 can be used again further as a fuel source until the waste quantity is negligible. I'm sure I don't need to quote you the whole article, nor support the validity of the 'World Nuclear Association' as a source.

Ireland and Nuclear Power

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