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Koran is "prescribed material" for Leaving Cert Arabic.

13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭kevincaomhin


    The question in my mind should revolve around whether having the Koran on the exam puts non-muslim students at a disadvantage.

    One would imagine that a Muslim would have a far greater understanding of the Koran through exposure via religious teachings and thus would be able give a better answer than a non-muslim on the same level of Arabic. (This is coming from a perspective of knowing very little about Arabic or the Koran, but it would appear logical.)

    Against this as alluded to already, many of the subjects would appear to have a western societal view (with roots in Christianity) and therefore may place muslims (and other non christian religions) at a disadvantage.

    It would appear to be a hard circle to square.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    To those that say "I can't see the problem once it's treated as a piece of literature and not as religious text", I wonder do you take the same line of argument about school patronage? "Religious patronage is grand, once they don't start acting like priests and blessing people?"


    Are there no other Arabic books?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    To those that say "I can't see the problem once it's treated as a piece of literature and not as religious text", I wonder do you take the same line of argument about school patronage? "Religious patronage is grand, once they don't start acting like priests and blessing people?"


    Are there no other Arabic books?
    No I don't. But AI don't think kick back against patronage is fueling some paranoia about completely irrelevant stuff. And I explained where I come from it was taken as part of literature. It might not be as noticeable here because English is limited to study local literature. We had everything from Greek, Roman, some Aisan stuff and then the major periods after the fall of Roman Empire. Realism probably being the most pronounced. Seriously if people can't distinguish between literal and religious role... Should we also ban Voltaire because some of his ideas are outdated?

    BTW we also did Christ and stuff as part of history of Roman Empire. And Mohamed as part of Arabic State in history.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    To those that say "I can't see the problem once it's treated as a piece of literature and not as religious text", I wonder do you take the same line of argument about school patronage? "Religious patronage is grand, once they don't start acting like priests and blessing people?"


    But it is both a piece of literature and a religious text. It's not an examination of Islam though so it's religious connotations are irrelevant. I'm trying to see how that relates to religious patronage, but I'm just lost :o

    Are there no other Arabic books?


    Of course there are, but the idea of using the Koran is to examine students comprehension of classical and modern Arabic language:

    Part 2 will consist of three sections. The first section, to be answered by all candidates, will comprise an extract from the Koran, followed by two questions. The second and third sections, between which the candidates will be asked to choose, will consist respectively of a portion of classical Arabic verse, followed by two questions, and an extract from a work of modern Arabic prose, followed by 2 questions. In both cases, one question will bear directly on the text presented, while the other question will be of a more contextual nature.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    But it is both a piece of literature and a religious text. It's not an examination of Islam though so it's religious connotations are irrelevant. I'm trying to see how that relates to religious patronage, but I'm just lost :o





    Of course there are, but the idea of using the Koran is to examine students comprehension of classical and modern Arabic language:

    I don't agree the religious connotations are irrelevant.

    I studied German at school. I never remember having to compare classical and modern German texts in school.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I don't agree the religious connotations are irrelevant.

    I studied German at school. I never remember having to compare classical and modern German texts in school.


    That's because German, French, Italian and Spanish aren't taught in the same way, with the same aims as Arabic, English, or Irish for that matter:

    A Common Syllabus Framework
    The Leaving Certificate German syllabus is set out in the context of a common syllabus framework for the teaching and exarnining of French, German, Spanish and Italian. The syllabus content draws on the junior cycle syllabus and develops many aspects of its aims, objectives and content. The syllabus is "communicative" in the sense that it is based on the purposes to which learners are likely to want, need or expect to put the knowledge and skiils they acquire in class, and in the sense that the objectives detailed in the syllabus are expressed in terms of language use. It is not, however, communicative" in the narrow sense of confining itself to oral face-to-face communication. Nor does it presuppose a rejection of explicit teaching about the target language and culture; indeed, it presupposes quite the contrary.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    recedite wrote: »
    That does not mean that
    (a) I think its a theology test
    or (b) I think that muslims correspond to some crude stereotype

    The fact is, they believe that the Koran is the work of a god.

    Supposing there was a mandatory test on the Harry Potter books in the LC English exam. Now JK Rowling may, or may not, be a very fine author.
    But as a student you are going to answer that question in a very different way if you think the exam has been set by somebody who believes its all true, its all perfectly written, and it was dictated to JK Rowling by an almighty god. Especially if that same person is the one who will be correcting your exam papers afterwards.

    You don't even know what they are asked..........dropping the muslim panic response would help enormously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I am really failing to see the issue here. The Bible has been used in everything from the Lord of The Rings to Superman. I don't doubt that various Arabic cultures arts and literatures have been heavily influenced or inspired by the Koran. it's just not sensible to ignore the fact that these books do have a literary value. I actually think it's best that they're approached in this way. As long as the books are presented as various modes of prose and poetry rather than factual and historical, I have no issue. In fact, I think that's a good thing, keeping "analysis" of religious books to religious studies only would be much worse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    seamus wrote: »
    I wonder what's on the Latin course? I would have thought Latin was equally dead except for the efforts of the Catholic church. Is the Latin bible on that curriculum?
    seamus wrote: »
    It would be the equivalent of making the Bible required reading in an English course.
    seamus wrote: »
    Hence why we don't study the bible as part of the leaving cert english course.

    We don't study the bible in an English course (or a Latin one for that matter) because the Bible wasn't written in English. The gospels as well as the acts of the apostles are included as unprescribed texts in the Ancient Greek course however, given that they were written in Koine Greek.

    It's best to avoid translated texts in any literature course because of the likelihood that both accidental and deliberate translation errors will have been incorporated into the translation. One only has to look at the translation errors throughout the bible to see the difficulty with this.
    For example, the Old Testament Book of Proverbs is a book which is supposedly written by King Solomon, imparting his legendary wisdom. However, we now know that the book was copied almost verbatim from the earlier Egyptian text "Instruction of Amenomope". As a result of copying errors some passages from Proverbs have now been translated entirely differently:

    Proverbs 22:20

    "Have I not written to thee excellent things in counsels and knowledge"
    (KJV)

    "Have I not written thirty sayings for you, sayings of counsels and knowledge."
    (NIV)

    "Have I not written to thee three times with counsels and knowledge."
    (YLT)

    So here we can see how a single verse is rendered entirely differently. The difference results from a copying error from the original text which causes the meaning of the original passage to be lost.

    When we look at the parallel passage from the earlier work we see that the modern translations bear little resemblance to the original.

    "Look to these thirty chapters, they inform they educate."
    Instruction of Amenomope, Chapter 30, Line 539

    The problem is that the Hebrew word shelowshiym or

    שְׁלוֹשִׁים

    which translates as thirty is copied into the later work as shilshowm or:

    שִׁלְשׁוֹם

    which means three days ago. However since a translation of three days ago would make no sense in the context of Proverbs later scribes had to come up with different interpretations to reconcile the mistake.

    It is for reasons like this and the other mangled "prophecies" found in the New Testament that we don't use translations in literature courses.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    That's because German, French, Italian and Spanish aren't taught in the same way, with the same aims as Arabic, English, or Irish for that matter:

    What does the common framework say about the way Arabic is thought to compare and why is there a difference?



    As an aside- What site is that you quoted? They have education and skills spelled wrong!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    What does the common framework say about the way Arabic is thought to compare and why is there a difference?

    As an aside- What site is that you quoted? They have education and skills spelled wrong!!


    Arabic:
    Leaving Certificate Arabic is based on the Arabic curriculum taught at secondary school level in the state system of an Arabic-speaking country. The curriculum includes a number of prescribed texts, both religious and secular.

    Arabic is assessed by a written examination at both Ordinary and Higher levels. There is also an aural and an oral examination at both levels.


    German:
    Leaving Certificate German follows a common syllabus framework for the teaching and examining of modern languages in the Leaving Certificate. The syllabus aims to develop learners’ communicative skills in the German, to develop their strategies for effective language learning and raise their awareness of cultural, social and political diversity.

    Assessment is by means of a written examination, and an aural and oral examination at two levels, Ordinary level and Higher level.


    I'm quoting from curriculumonline.ie, the NCCA are the body who develops the academic curricula and syllabuses for schools in Ireland.

    As an aside - did you mean 'thought' or 'taught' in that first sentence? Both would make sense. Where do they have education and skills spelt wrong though?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,492 ✭✭✭stoplooklisten


    Arabic:




    German:

    Thanks, I did try and find it, but couldn't.
    Leaving Certificate Arabic is based on the Arabic curriculum taught at secondary school level in the state system of an Arabic-speaking country. The curriculum includes a number of prescribed texts, both religious and secular.

    Why is it based on Arabic curriculum, what logic is behind this? We don't reach English/German/French to the English/German/French curriculum.

    What Arabic curriculum? What country? Who decides this curriculum? I know the leaving certificate is taught in Arabic countries, but why are all subjects not transferable from our own curriculum. Is it superior to our system? Where does it sit on the Tables?




    As an aside! "...syllabus framework for the teaching and exarnining of French...or expect to put the knowledge and skiils..." and yes my post should be "taught"!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio








    Thanks, I did try and find it, but couldn't.


    Why is it based on Arabic curriculum, what logic is behind this?

    Its at far more advanced level than French or German is taught. Essentially its being learnt at the same equibalent level as English is taught here or in an English speaking country, as far as I understand things.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    Thanks, I did try and find it, but couldn't.

    Why is it based on Arabic curriculum, what logic is behind this? We don't reach English/German/French to the English/German/French curriculum.

    What Arabic curriculum? What country? Who decides this curriculum? I know the leaving certificate is taught in Arabic countries, but why are all subjects not transferable from our own curriculum. Is it superior to our system? Where does it sit on the Tables?


    That's an awful lot of questions! :D

    I'd say your best bet would be to contact the NCCA themselves to find out the answers to those questions tbh. I don't know myself.

    As an aside! "...syllabus framework for the teaching and exarnining of French...or expect to put the knowledge and skiils..." and yes my post should be "taught"!


    Interesting little quirk there, 'examining' is spelt correctly in the PDF I had copied and quoted the text from:

    https://curriculumonline.ie/getmedia/ea1cfa4b-2fbf-4aa0-97bd-603f8a32ee1d/SCSEC18_German_syllabus_eng.pdf


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,599 Mod ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    What does the common framework say about the way Arabic is thought to compare and why is there a difference?

    Arabic is examined with the expectation that the candidate could use it as a first langague.

    French German Spanish etc are taught to a basic competency level.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Arabic:
    Leaving Certificate Arabic is based on the Arabic curriculum taught at secondary school level in the state system of an Arabic-speaking country. The curriculum includes a number of prescribed texts, both religious and secular.
    What Arabic curriculum? What country? Who decides this curriculum?
    Good questions. This only fuels my suspicion that the syllabus is set by somebody down at the mosque.
    The NCCA seems to be taking a back seat, despite this being an Irish state exam.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    recedite wrote: »
    Good questions. This only fuels my suspicion that the syllabus is set by somebody down at the mosque.
    The NCCA seems to be taking a back seat, despite this being an Irish state exam.

    Can I ask a question? Numerous posters here have addressed the issue and explained to you exactly why the Koran is used in connection with the exam, some in detail. Despite this, and the availability of any number of independent sources that show why the Koran is used, you still persevere with the mistaken belief that this is all somehow related to the "mosque" and a form of conspiracy. Do you just summarily reject all the contrary information presented to you, or do you just refuse to contemplate it at all and ignore it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    recedite wrote: »
    Good questions. This only fuels my suspicion that the syllabus is set by somebody down at the mosque.
    The NCCA seems to be taking a back seat, despite this being an Irish state exam.


    recedite will you read the list of contributors to the syllabus at the bottom of the syllabus document I linked to earlier. There's no connection to any mosque, because there's no religious context to the inclusion of the Koran in the syllabus. Even the NCCA who you claim to have taken a back seat, have said as much:

    You read your own article surely?


    "In a statement, the State body for development subject material, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment (NCCA), said the Koran was included on the basis of its linguistic and literary value and not because of its association with religion.

    It said the requirement for questions based on the Koran are explicitly stated in the syllabus.

    In the Arabic exam, candidates are presented with three texts: an extract from the Koran, a portion of Arabic verse and an extract from a work of modern Arabic prose.

    The questions related to the Koran are mandatory for all candidates, while candidates may choose from a portion of verse and modern prose."


    This case has as much to do with discrimination as King Lear being prescribed material for the English exam is discriminatory to teenagers who only understand txt spk.


    And it's the State Examinations Commission devises and oversees examination of the subject.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Lurkio wrote: »
    Can I ask a question? Numerous posters here have addressed the issue...
    Numerous posters have defended the mandatory inclusion of religious material in the exam, and numerous other posters have explained why more "neutral" Arabic literature should have been chosen instead.
    It would be a more acceptable situation if the Islamic material was made optional, but ideally it should be excluded on the basis that "the speaking of Arabic" and "being a Muslim" are not necessarily synonymous.
    recedite will you read the list of contributors to the syllabus at the bottom of the syllabus document I linked to earlier. There's no connection to any mosque......."
    In a statement, the State body for development subject material, the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment (NCCA), said the Koran was included on the basis of its linguistic and literary value and not because of its association with religion.
    As somebody already mentioned, that is a BS response from NCCA.

    BTW how do you know "There's no connection to any mosque"? I mentioned my suspicions, but are you giving me the benefit of your actual knowledge? Or is this just your belief dressed-up as an authoritative statement of fact?

    There is a telling statement on the website;
    Leaving Certificate Arabic is based on the Arabic curriculum taught at secondary school level in the state system of an Arabic-speaking country
    What other Leaving Cert exam is based on the school curriculum of a foreign country? Which exact country are we talking about here anyway, is it Saudi Arabia?
    Are we to believe that Paddy O'Leprechaun of the NCCA went over to Saudi Arabia and asked them for a copy of their Arabic syllabus? Did he bring back any other good ideas from Islamic educational systems?
    Perhaps only boys should be allowed to sit the exam at higher level?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    recedite wrote: »
    BTW how do you know "There's no connection to any mosque"? I mentioned my suspicions, but are you giving me the benefit of your actual knowledge? Or is this just your belief dressed-up as an authoritative statement of fact?


    Because I read the syllabus I linked you to earlier:


    Procedures for drawing up National Syllabuses

    The NCCA’s Course Committees for the Leaving Certificate (Established) have the following membership:

    • Association of Secondary Teachers, Ireland
    • Teachers’ Union of Ireland
    • Joint Managerial Body
    • Association of Community and Comprehensive Schools
    • Subject Association
    • Irish Vocational Education Association
    • National Council for Educational Awards
    • Conference of Heads of Irish Universities
    • Department of Education and Science (Inspectorate)
    • State Examinations Commission.

    On the basis of a brief provided by Council, the NCCA’s Course Committees prepare the syllabuses. Recommendations of Course Committees are submitted to the Council of the NCCA for approval. The NCCA, having considered such recommendations, advises the Minister for Education and Science accordingly.

    Further information may be obtained by contacting the NCCA at 24 Merrion Square, Dublin 2.


    Even by your own admission, you have no basis whatsoever upon which to assume that any Muslim contributed to the curriculum, or that Muslims have anything to do with marking the examinations:

    recedite wrote: »
    It would be a more acceptable situation if the Islamic material was made optional, but ideally it should be excluded on the basis that "the speaking of Arabic" and "being a Muslim" are not necessarily synonymous.

    recedite wrote: »
    There is a telling statement on the website;What other Leaving Cert exam is based on the school curriculum of a foreign country? Which exact country are we talking about here anyway, is it Saudi Arabia?
    Are we to believe that Paddy O'Leprechaun of the NCCA went over to Saudi Arabia and asked them for a copy of their Arabic syllabus? Did he bring back any other good ideas from Islamic educational systems?
    Perhaps only boys should be allowed to sit the exam at higher level?


    We're talking about Libya:

    ISM International School, Hai Andulus, Tripoli, Libya

    Curriculum

    The high school follows the curriculum of the Irish departments of education and science. At its core is a strong emphasis on academic achievement and self-discipline. To highlight the importance of the academic core, we have three examinations per year. These examinations take place in November, February and May.

    In Grades 7 to 9, the subjects are English, Mathematics, History, Geography, Physics, Chemistry, Biology, Art, French, Arabic, with the addition of Business studies for Grade 10 students. Physical Education is also an important part of the curriculum.

    In the senior cycle (Grades 11 to 12) the students study in preparation for the Irish Leaving Certificate. This is an internationally recognized examination which is deemed to be above par when compared to the final examination of other countries. Throughout this two year course, assessment involves full examinations three times each year with detailed reports being provided to parents. English, Mathematics and Physical Education must be taken at this level. Students then have a choice of studying French, Arabic, Art, Business Studies, Physics, History, Chemistry, Geography, Biology or Economics.


    I'm not sure their name was Paddy O' Leprechaun, but they substitute Irish in the curriculum for Arabic:

    Where do the Exams come from?

    All exams come to Libya via a confidential route. Two examiners are hired by the Irish State Examinations Commission. They are sent to supervise the students writing exams. They also organize for the written exams to be returned to Ireland for marking. Please note: Students have had to travel to Malta or Ireland for the last 2 years due to the unrest within the country. The ILC marks will be issued by the Irish State Examinations Commission, usually in late August.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    recedite wrote: »
    Numerous posters (..................)the exam at higher level?

    Yet more paranoid meanderings. We do not live in a world where everything has to prove their separation from the nearest mosque. You've been shown to be completely misguided, to an unreasonable degree.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite



    You're saying the Irish state exams are set by The International School of Martyrs, in Libya, who illustrate the syllabus with a picture of a Kamikaze on their website??

    OK at this stage, Poe's Law kicks in, and I can no longer tell who is taking the pi$$.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    recedite wrote: »
    You're saying the Irish state exams are set by The International School of Martyrs, in Libya, who illustrate the syllabus with a picture of a Kamikaze on their website??

    OK at this stage, Poe's Law kicks in, and I can no longer tell who is taking the pi$$.
    I take it you never came across schools for ex-pats? Not just in Libya but in general. Frankly your ignorance about how kids of embassy workers and others are schooled is staggering. Just a quick link about who school is educating:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/sitting-the-leaving-under-the-libyan-sun-1.451765




  • ... How many would this affect? Just the five people studying Arabic?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    recedite wrote: »
    You're saying the Irish state exams are set by The International School of Martyrs, in Libya, who illustrate the syllabus with a picture of a Kamikaze on their website??

    OK at this stage, Poe's Law kicks in, and I can no longer tell who is taking the pi$$.

    Are you at any stage going to actually try and honestly engage with the evidence placed before you, or are you just going to continue with the "But Islam!!!!!" line regardless....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 752 ✭✭✭Lurkio


    ... How many would this affect? Just the five people studying Arabic?

    Them first, then later its burkhas and house to house searches for pork products for the rest of us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 16,103 ✭✭✭✭Pherekydes


    ... How many would this affect? Just the five people studying Arabic?

    122 last year. Not sure how many are affected, as per the OP.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    recedite wrote: »
    You're saying the Irish state exams are set by The International School of Martyrs, in Libya, who illustrate the syllabus with a picture of a Kamikaze on their website??


    Nope, that's not what I said at all.

    recedite wrote: »
    OK at this stage, Poe's Law kicks in, and I can no longer tell who is taking the pi$$.


    I think we're way past Poe here. You're still trying to make a link between the teaching of Arabic in Irish schools, and the syllabus, curriculum or examination having some relation to anyone in a Mosque in Clonskeagh:

    recedite wrote: »
    I wonder who exactly examines these papers anyway? If I was a Syrian Christian with fluent Arabic, sitting a Leaving Cert exam in Ireland, I would not be at all happy answering a question on the Koran if a guy in Clonskeagh mosque was going to be correcting the paper.


    And if it's not related to a Mosque in Clonskeagh, well the teaching of Arabic must be related somehow to Islamic extremism:

    recedite wrote: »
    You're saying the Irish state exams are set by The International School of Martyrs, in Libya, who illustrate the syllabus with a picture of a Kamikaze on their website??


    Contradicting you own assertion that:

    recedite wrote: »
    "the speaking of Arabic" and "being a Muslim" are not necessarily synonymous.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    meeeeh wrote: »
    I take it you never came across schools for ex-pats? Not just in Libya but in general. Frankly your ignorance about how kids of embassy workers and others are schooled is staggering. Just a quick link about who school is educating:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/sitting-the-leaving-under-the-libyan-sun-1.451765
    Your link is a bit out of date. Colonel Gadaffi is dead. Libya has since descended into chaos, with different regions run by various warlords, including those allied to ISIS. I doubt there are very many expat kids being educated there nowadays.

    Besides, this thread is about students sitting the Leaving Cert exam in Ireland.
    Perhaps we are using a LC syllabus developed in Libya for historical reasons, ie nobody actually sat the exam in Ireland back in Gadaffi's day.
    So nobody in Ireland cared what was in it.

    However the situation has changed now. Its time we developed our own Arabic syllabus, and the Irish-based Syrian Christians as mentioned in the OP should be among those consulted when designing the new syllabus.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,460 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    recedite wrote: »
    Your link is a bit out of date. Colonel Gadaffi is dead. Libya has since descended into chaos, with different regions run by various warlords, including those allied to ISIS. I doubt there are very many expat kids being educated there nowadays.

    Besides, this thread is about students sitting the Leaving Cert exam in Ireland.
    Perhaps we are using a LC syllabus developed in Libya for historical reasons, ie nobody actually sat the exam in Ireland back in Gadaffi's day.
    So nobody in Ireland cared what was in it.


    Come on now recedite - it was entirely relevant as the school was set up in '95, with the first Leaving Certificate examinations taken in '97, the same year the Arabic language syllabus was introduced as a Leaving Certificate examination subject in Ireland. You can of course doubt as much as you like, but you haven't done any of your own homework so far in this thread, only thrown enough shìt in the hope something would stick.

    However the situation has changed now. Its time we developed our own Arabic syllabus, and the Irish-based Syrian Christians as mentioned in the OP should be among those consulted when designing the new syllabus.


    Why? We have developed our own syllabus, and it was reviewed in 2004, and it's now being reviewed again. Why should Syrian Christians have to be consulted any more than Irish Muslims or Irish Christians or Irish or Syrian non-religious students? On the basis of their religion or none? I thought that's what we were supposed to be trying to avoid in an effort to devise an impartial Arabic language syllabus and examination?


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