saving wild honey bee colony in house wall

[Deleted User] · 18-12-2015 12:24am #1

Appreciate any advice.
Today my brother showed me a wild honey bee colony in the wall of his house. Its just about a foot off the ground and in the fabric of an old stone wall. They seem a strong colony and were very active in the sun today.
He would like to move them on, and ideally to save them in a hive.

However, because of the location it would be impossible to get at the brood or the queen so his only option might be to destroy them which would be a pity.

I was wondering if placing a hive, ie brood box, formed frames and feeder nearby might encourage the colony to move there in the spring, or if they swarm to settle there?

I know its a long shot, but appreciate any comments or advice.

welsummer · 18-12-2015 1:37am

Hi Dr Donkey.
Any chance you can get a photo of the bees. I know its getting late in the year , but the fact that its a foot of the ground leads me to suspect that it could be wasps.

[Deleted User] · 18-12-2015 9:25am

welsummer wrote: »

Hi Dr Donkey.
Any chance you can get a photo of the bees. I know its getting late in the year , but the fact that its a foot of the ground leads me to suspect that it could be wasps.

Definitely honey bees, but ill try to get a photo anyway

bpmurray · 18-12-2015 11:31am

Why is he so certain that they can't be removed? A hive requires quite a bit of space, so they're in some large cavity in the wall - could it be that they're in behind a dry wall? If that's the case, it should be easy enough to remove them, although it would require a bit of plastering repair work.

[Deleted User] · 18-12-2015 5:44pm

welsummer wrote: »

Hi Dr Donkey.
Any chance you can get a photo of the bees. I know its getting late in the year , but the fact that its a foot of the ground leads me to suspect that it could be wasps.

Here you go. Its a thick ancient stone wall, so demolishing part of it, even assuming one could find a willing builder, would be asking for trouble.

thomasthomas19 · 18-12-2015 10:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Here you go. Its a thick ancient stone wall, so demolishing part of it, even assuming one could find a willing builder, would be asking for trouble.

Hi
It's the wrong time of year to try and move bees and they will not leave the wall . You could try and leave a bait outside , but that would only get you a swarm of bees . And there would be still bees left in the wall . So you either leave them for now or kill them .

Xheers

[Deleted User] · 19-12-2015 1:15am

thomasthomas19 wrote: »

Hi
It's the wrong time of year to try and move bees and they will not leave the wall . You could try and leave a bait outside , but that would only get you a swarm of bees . And there would be still bees left in the wall . So you either leave them for now or kill them .

Xheers

Agreed. I think the idea would be to prepare the ground now so that they could be 'homed' in the spring. And obviously there would be no point in moving them unless we had the queen (or queen cells).

I had another idea today. I have no idea if it would work or not. What if, when its quiet in winter, we place a brood box in front of the opening, and connected to it? Would the colony extend the hive outwards into the brood box in spring when they become active again.? I suppose it would depend on how far the present colony is from the opening... as the queen wouldnt go far to lay.

Just brainstorming...

welsummer · 19-12-2015 9:57pm

they are honey bees alright and there Is No way of getting them out alive. In this situation I would leave them till about February and then spray and kill them when the bee numbers and stores are at their lowest.

Satriale · 20-12-2015 12:03am

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. I think the idea would be to prepare the ground now so that they could be 'homed' in the spring. And obviously there would be no point in moving them unless we had the queen (or queen cells).

I had another idea today. I have no idea if it would work or not. What if, when its quiet in winter, we place a brood box in front of the opening, and connected to it? Would the colony extend the hive outwards into the brood box in spring when they become active again.? I suppose it would depend on how far the present colony is from the opening... as the queen wouldnt go far to lay.

Just brainstorming...

I'd try this if i were you, but i wouldnt be in a rush until they start getting active again in the spring. I think if they drew down in your broodbox she would come out and lay in the fresh comb. I've seen it done somewhere but i cant remember was it on a documentary or youtube, (i'll edit post if i can find it again.)

Once you were sure of brood in the box, you could alway rig a one way system to clear the rest of the bees from the wall into your new hive, you might end up only having to destroy a few bees instead of the whole hive.

Kudos for trying to save them and best of luck, they are a fantastic creature!

welsummer · 20-12-2015 2:27pm

It won't work, but good luck trying

Satriale · 20-12-2015 3:47pm

welsummer wrote: »

It won't work, but good luck trying

Why are you so positive, Welsummers?

If the entrance box becomes an extension of the hive, i cant see a reason they wouldnt utilise it when the push for space comes. If they have to go through it, they probably arent going to waste the room.
If nothing else, he might get a broodbox full of honey for his trouble.

Effects · 20-12-2015 11:45pm

welsummer wrote: »

they are honey bees alright and there Is No way of getting them out alive. In this situation I would leave them till about February and then spray and kill them when the bee numbers and stores are at their lowest.

Absolutely stupid advice. There's plenty of people willing to try and remove them so there's no need to kill them.

welsummer · 21-12-2015 7:56pm

Effects wrote: »

Absolutely stupid advice. There's plenty of people willing to try and remove them so there's no need to kill them.

Sorry if you think it's stupid advice but I have removed alot of bee's from cavities and I know now when to attempt a job and when not to even contemplate it. The owner of the house in not GOING to let you knock the wall to save a few bees.. if you want to put a box in front you are going to have a feed heavily to get then to completely fill the cavity before they will even attempt to start drawing comb in the box. Now, what size IS the cavity and how many gallons of syrup does it takes to fill it. This will probably take till middle may or early June to achieve.If you do get her TO move into the box and you remove it, what are you now going to do with the cavity that is now chocker blocked full of syrup. You might have your bees but the house owner now has a bigger problem. It will be swarming season and bees will be back into the cavity in days.

tayto lover · 21-12-2015 8:20pm

Contact these people OP.
They are the experts and will tell you how to save them.
They may even send a local expert.
http://www.irishbeekeeping.ie/

bpmurray · 21-12-2015 11:07pm

The way to remove this is to essentially create a no-return conical exit from the hive in spring time when the hive starts to pick up again. Essentially you create a narrowing tube that allows the bees out to a bait hive, and they can't get back in. After a little while, the flying bees are all outside in the other hive which you'll have to prime with a queen or a frame of eggs/larvae to get them to create a new queen.

Once the new hive is established outside the wall (after a few weeks), all that's left inside is the queen and a few hangers on - you can remove the no-return entrance to allow the bees back in to rob the original hive at this point. They'll clean it out, removing at least some of the attraction to other swarms. At this point seal up all entrances - this is important since you now have a great new location for any swarm in the area to set up home.

Here's a document that explains what's needed. You will need a beekeeper to help you but they'll often be happy to just try to capture a new swarm.

Poison is just daft - you'll be left with a load of decomposing poisoned bees with poison honey and wax, perfect for wiping out all the other insects in the area.

Satriale · 21-12-2015 11:12pm

welsummer wrote: »

Sorry if you think it's stupid advice but I have removed alot of bee's from cavities and I know now when to attempt a job and when not to even contemplate it. The owner of the house in not GOING to let you knock the wall to save a few bees.. if you want to put a box in front you are going to have a feed heavily to get then to completely fill the cavity before they will even attempt to start drawing comb in the box. Now, what size IS the cavity and how many gallons of syrup does it takes to fill it. This will probably take till middle may or early June to achieve.If you do get her TO move into the box and you remove it, what are you now going to do with the cavity that is now chocker blocked full of syrup. You might have your bees but the house owner now has a bigger problem. It will be swarming season and bees will be back into the cavity in days.

I'm having a hard time picturing the bees with their little hammers trying to get back into the concrete filled entrance. This being the internet I found one though .

Seriously though, that all makes sense, but it sounds like the brother likes bees, maybe he would be amenable to waiting a bit to save them. Personally, I would knock down a wall rather than kill them, sadly i know many wouldn't.

Reesy · 28-12-2015 1:16pm

Hi OP,

What is your brother planning to do with the wall?

welsummer · 28-12-2015 1:53pm

bpmurray wrote: »

The way to remove this is to essentially create a no-return conical exit from the hive in spring time when the hive starts to pick up again. Essentially you create a narrowing tube that allows the bees out to a bait hive, and they can't get back in. After a little while, the flying bees are all outside in the other hive which you'll have to prime with a queen or a frame of eggs/larvae to get them to create a new queen.

Once the new hive is established outside the wall (after a few weeks), all that's left inside is the queen and a few hangers on - you can remove the no-return entrance to allow the bees back in to rob the original hive at this point. They'll clean it out, removing at least some of the attraction to other swarms. At this point seal up all entrances - this is important since you now have a great new location for any swarm in the area to set up home.

Here's a document that explains what's needed. You will need a beekeeper to help you but they'll often be happy to just try to capture a new swarm.

Poison is just daft - you'll be left with a load of decomposing poisoned bees with poison honey and wax, perfect for wiping out all the other insects in the area.

So, please tell me where you are going to get a queen now or in the spring. If you give them a frame of brood and they do draw down a queen cell how are you going to get her mated WHEN there Is no mature fertile drones till mid or late May which still takes you onto June

solargain · 31-12-2015 3:37pm

Effects wrote: »

Absolutely stupid advice. There's plenty of people willing to try and remove them so there's no need to kill them.

unless you are intent on knocking the wall they will not come out . Are you willing to pay somebody to waste a day trying. While they are messing with that hole in the wall , they loose a days pay. As welsummer says where are you going to get a queen in Jan in Ireland to requeen

[Deleted User] · 01-01-2016 10:59pm

Hi OP here.

Thanks for all the advice. We discussed it over the Christmas period. In summary, as has been said here, we have not been able to find a single successful case on the internet where a colony has been removed from a stone wall. There are lots of examples of removal from wooden partitions and roofs but not for our situation.

The wall is old and structural so it is not going to be opened up as that would be asking for trouble.

The option of requeening seems one that might work (later in the year, of course) but that kind of defeats the purpose of removing the colony as he would end up with the new queens colony, not the naturally wild one thats there, or its descendents.

The point that feeding in a linked hive would simply result in filling the wall with syrup is a valid one which we hasnt considered.

So in conclusion, he doesnt have any clear option with even a small prospect of success.
I think he will just play it by ear... Maybe they will swarm next year and he will collect it...or maybe they will be a nuisance (because of their location) and will have to be got rid of.

bpmurray · 04-01-2016 6:44pm

welsummer wrote: »

So, please tell me where you are going to get a queen now or in the spring. If you give them a frame of brood and they do draw down a queen cell how are you going to get her mated WHEN there Is no mature fertile drones till mid or late May which still takes you onto June

I didn't mean now! I meant that this was something that had to be planned and would work, once you had the queen (or brood). Drones should be flying in may, so it's not that far away unless there's urgent need to do the work and, from reading the OP's comments, there doesn't appear to be.

midlouth · 09-01-2016 11:12am

bpmurray wrote: »

I didn't mean now! I meant that this was something that had to be planned and would work, once you had the queen (or brood). Drones should be flying in may, so it's not that far away unless there's urgent need to do the work and, from reading the OP's comments, there doesn't appear to be.

Could merge with another hive that has a queen. Not really that difficult.

welsummer · 12-01-2016 4:13pm

midlouth wrote: »

Could merge with another hive that has a queen. Not really that difficult.

what do you think they are going to do with the new queen you give them when they can still smell their own queen inside the wall.

bpmurray · 13-01-2016 2:02pm

welsummer wrote: »

what do you think they are going to do with the new queen you give them when they can still smell their own queen inside the wall.

The idea is to isolate them from their old queen. It only takes a few hours using a Snelgrove board to make them want to draw queen cells, and that's within the same hive, so removing the ability to return to the hive should make them forget her pretty quickly.

welsummer · 13-01-2016 2:16pm

bpmurray wrote: »

The idea is to isolate them from their old queen. It only takes a few hours using a Snelgrove board to make them want to draw queen cells, and that's within the same hive, so removing the ability to return to the hive should make them forget her pretty quickly.

A snelgrove board. That's me out of this post.

fad460 · 13-01-2016 2:39pm

I don't think you'd be able to move them.

saving wild honey bee colony in house wall

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