Quasi Realistic Blue sky thinking

kidneyfan · 04-09-2015 9:03am #1

What is a 'blue sky' idea that could help this country in terms of infrastructure.

Please don't reply with silly answers like dragons but please do be quite silly.

For example:
Drone based public transport
One long motorway and train line running Coleraine to Cork with spurs off it for connection.
Spirit of Ireland project

etc. ...

McAlban · 04-09-2015 9:43am

M50 East/DPT extension.

Thought they should have just turned 1 TBM towards DU and the other off towards the southside. Come up in Leapordstown Race Course and join the M50 there at J15.

Maintain a through lane in each direction in East wall. Would seriously reduce congestion on the M50 West.

GetWithIt · 04-09-2015 11:37am

kidneyfan wrote: »

......
Spirit of Ireland project
.....

lol

Sam Russell · 04-09-2015 12:46pm

Can't have blue sky thinking in Ireland - it rains too much!

magicbastarder · 04-09-2015 12:47pm

kidneyfan wrote: »

Drone based public transport

how would this work?

antoinolachtnai · 11-09-2015 6:37pm

Well, one thing we could do is to work to have, say, 85 percent of our mechanised road traffic between the canals as self-driving vehicles by 2030.

The benefit of this would be that:

- the roads would be more comfortable for bikes and pedestrians (cars can be programmed to drive slowly and smoothly in the presence of pedestrians, and to move in compact groups of three or four cars travelling closely together, leaving large gaps between groups)

- the roads would be safer (less human error, smoother driving)

- traffic flows would be faster (vehicles would move through junctions much more quickly with less distance between cars, doubling the junction capacity)

- you greatly reduce the need for city centre parking (cars can leave the city when they they have delivered their passengers)

- you can provide a taxi-type service at a low cost per km (because there is no labour cost involved).

- there would be no major capital investment required to get this increase in comfort, safety and capacity (i.e., no new roads, no new rail tunnels). Just replacement of vehicles with automatic vehicles as they are being renewed.

There are also major advantages for self-driving cars in suburban and rural situations.

kidneyfan · 14-09-2015 10:23am

Is this possible and what state and private measures could make it work>

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, one thing we could do is to work to have, say, 85 percent of our mechanised road traffic between the canals as self-driving vehicles by 2030.

The benefit of this would be that:

- the roads would be more comfortable for bikes and pedestrians (cars can be programmed to drive slowly and smoothly in the presence of pedestrians, and to move in compact groups of three or four cars travelling closely together, leaving large gaps between groups)

- the roads would be safer (less human error, smoother driving)

- traffic flows would be faster (vehicles would move through junctions much more quickly with less distance between cars, doubling the junction capacity)

- you greatly reduce the need for city centre parking (cars can leave the city when they they have delivered their passengers)

- you can provide a taxi-type service at a low cost per km (because there is no labour cost involved).

- there would be no major capital investment required to get this increase in comfort, safety and capacity (i.e., no new roads, no new rail tunnels). Just replacement of vehicles with automatic vehicles as they are being renewed.

There are also major advantages for self-driving cars in suburban and rural situations.

Sam Russell · 14-09-2015 11:02am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, one thing we could do is to work to have, say, 85 percent of our mechanised road traffic between the canals as self-driving vehicles by 2030.

The benefit of this would be that:

- the roads would be more comfortable for bikes and pedestrians (cars can be programmed to drive slowly and smoothly in the presence of pedestrians, and to move in compact groups of three or four cars travelling closely together, leaving large gaps between groups)

- the roads would be safer (less human error, smoother driving)

- traffic flows would be faster (vehicles would move through junctions much more quickly with less distance between cars, doubling the junction capacity)

- you greatly reduce the need for city centre parking (cars can leave the city when they they have delivered their passengers)

- you can provide a taxi-type service at a low cost per km (because there is no labour cost involved).

- there would be no major capital investment required to get this increase in comfort, safety and capacity (i.e., no new roads, no new rail tunnels). Just replacement of vehicles with automatic vehicles as they are being renewed.

There are also major advantages for self-driving cars in suburban and rural situations.

I think these are called buses or taxis, with a driver for safety.

Zubeneschamali · 14-09-2015 12:21pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think these are called buses or taxis, with a driver for safety.

If a self driving car is not safer than a human driven car, it should not be made legal.

antoinolachtnai · 14-09-2015 4:28pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think these are called buses or taxis, with a driver for safety.

Won't give you any increase in capacity. The junctions will still be the pinch points. Labour cost is also too high.

kidneyfan wrote:

Is this possible and what state and private measures could make it work

We would have to position ourselves as a test bed for this technology initially, and then give substantial special benefits to people who switch to automatic cars.

Local authority would need to give a high level of cooperation to the big car companies. One example of cooperation would be to give access to the cars to the luas lines and bus lanes where there is excess capacity.

The main thing is to have a vision for it, and to accept that without building underground roads or railways, this is the only way the city can grow its capacity and avoid gridlock.

LeinsterDub · 14-09-2015 4:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Can't have blue sky thinking in Ireland - it rains too much!

Giant roof with Tarzan ropes , weather sorted , public transport sorted too.

Sam Russell · 14-09-2015 4:34pm

Would not the best idea to make public transport free be the first step? If it is free to use the bus, Dart, and Luas then why use the car with the trouble of parking, tolls, etc.?

The free transport could be funded by parking fees and tolls. The more cars that are abandoned would cut congestion and the public transport (or at least the buses) would move quicker, thus being less expensive to run. This would compensate for the reduced parking income.

Now there is blue sky thinking.

Chemical Byrne · 14-09-2015 4:39pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Giant roof with Tarzan ropes , weather sorted , public transport sorted too.

Will also solve all our flooding woes and what's more, we can put big hydro power turbines on all the big downpipes off if and solve our energy woes. We could also have a big water park up there and use it for recreational boating and stuff too. Failte Ireland should be all over this.

antoinolachtnai · 14-09-2015 4:50pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would not the best idea to make public transport free be the first step? If it is free to use the bus, Dart, and Luas then why use the car with the trouble of parking, tolls, etc.?

The free transport could be funded by parking fees and tolls. The more cars that are abandoned would cut congestion and the public transport (or at least the buses) would move quicker, thus being less expensive to run. This would compensate for the reduced parking income.

Now there is blue sky thinking.

Public transport would become more expensive to run, because you would certainly need more capacity.

You would need immensely better public transport operations. The operations are basically awful as they are, and removing the cash imperative would make them even worse.

Just making public transport free doesn't automatically mean the operations get better.

There are said to be serious public order problems with operating free public transport. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

jobbridge4life · 14-09-2015 5:14pm

High speed rail Dublin to Cork, Limerick, Galway, and Belfast. With an under the sea connection to the Liverpool, Mancherster conurbation.

Double height extension to the m50 and out the n7 to just past Nass.

The M50 should be come a fully orbital route with a tunnel going from howth along the bay to dun laoighre.

Sam Russell · 14-09-2015 6:52pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Public transport would become more expensive to run, because you would certainly need more capacity.

You would need immensely better public transport operations. The operations are basically awful as they are, and removing the cash imperative would make them even worse.

Just making public transport free doesn't automatically mean the operations get better.

There are said to be serious public order problems with operating free public transport. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_public_transport

Obviously it does not go from expensive to free overnight.

Public order does not appear to affect all the grannies with free travel.

As public transport gets cheaper, more commuters will start to use it instead of private cars and so congestion is eased, increasing the average speed of buses and so increasing capacity for free.

As I said, this is blue sky thinking.

kidneyfan · 15-09-2015 10:52am

Milton Keynes is introducing driverless cars.

cgcsb · 15-09-2015 12:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Would not the best idea to make public transport free be the first step? If it is free to use the bus, Dart, and Luas then why use the car with the trouble of parking, tolls, etc.?

The free transport could be funded by parking fees and tolls. The more cars that are abandoned would cut congestion and the public transport (or at least the buses) would move quicker, thus being less expensive to run. This would compensate for the reduced parking income.

Now there is blue sky thinking.

The problem in Dublin is not that there are too few people using public transport, quite the opposite, existing public transport is overloaded. The problem is we lack high capacity rail along the major corridors and depend on slow, low capacity buses that get stuck in regular traffic.

cgcsb · 15-09-2015 12:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Obviously it does not go from expensive to free overnight.

Public order does not appear to affect all the grannies with free travel.

As public transport gets cheaper, more commuters will start to use it instead of private cars and so congestion is eased, increasing the average speed of buses and so increasing capacity for free.

As I said, this is blue sky thinking.

so when you are waiting on your bus in the morning, and 3 go past full, what are you supposed to do?

Sam Russell · 15-09-2015 1:43pm

cgcsb wrote: »

so when you are waiting on your bus in the morning, and 3 go past full, what are you supposed to do?

Campaign for: a congestion charge inside the canals; elimination of free civil service parking within the canals; the building of the Dart Underground and Metro North and the Clongriffin spur; more illegal parking clamping; reduction in taxi fares; etc. etc. etc.

Alternatively work from home.

magicbastarder · 15-09-2015 2:04pm

kidneyfan wrote: »

Milton Keynes is introducing driverless cars.

source?

Godge · 15-09-2015 2:11pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Campaign for: a congestion charge inside the canals; elimination of free civil service parking within the canals; the building of the Dart Underground and Metro North and the Clongriffin spur; more illegal parking clamping; reduction in taxi fares; etc. etc. etc.

Alternatively work from home.

Why do you target civil servants? The Department of Finance looked at a tax on car spaces but it proved impractical.

What about school inspectors? They are probably in the Department of Education once of twice a week and spend the rest of the time on the road. If one lives in Malahide and has an inspection in Naas in the morning but needs to be in the Department in the afternoon, should he get a 1.00 bus from Naas leaving the car, then a 5.00 bus back to Naas and drive home to Malahide from there?

When you deal with that, I can move on to Agriculture inspectors, OPW engineers and architects, Labour inspectors, Revenue officials and many more civil servants who need to travel with their job. You want rid of their parking places as well?

cgcsb · 15-09-2015 2:23pm

Godge wrote: »

Why do you target civil servants? The Department of Finance looked at a tax on car spaces but it proved impractical.

What about school inspectors? They are probably in the Department of Education once of twice a week and spend the rest of the time on the road. If one lives in Malahide and has an inspection in Naas in the morning but needs to be in the Department in the afternoon, should he get a 1.00 bus from Naas leaving the car, then a 5.00 bus back to Naas and drive home to Malahide from there?

When you deal with that, I can move on to Agriculture inspectors, OPW engineers and architects, Labour inspectors, Revenue officials and many more civil servants who need to travel with their job. You want rid of their parking places as well?

Plenty of private sector workers need to drive around with their job.

Sam Russell · 15-09-2015 2:32pm

Godge wrote: »

Why do you target civil servants? The Department of Finance looked at a tax on car spaces but it proved impractical.

What about school inspectors? They are probably in the Department of Education once of twice a week and spend the rest of the time on the road. If one lives in Malahide and has an inspection in Naas in the morning but needs to be in the Department in the afternoon, should he get a 1.00 bus from Naas leaving the car, then a 5.00 bus back to Naas and drive home to Malahide from there?

When you deal with that, I can move on to Agriculture inspectors, OPW engineers and architects, Labour inspectors, Revenue officials and many more civil servants who need to travel with their job. You want rid of their parking places as well?

I think there are a lot of all-day parking in Dublin that should be eliminated. Perhaps I was unfair to pick on Civil Servants, but there are many who have free all day parking that should be charged for or eliminated. The survey probably failed because it would affect senior public representatives, and senior Civil Servants and we can't have that.

The groups that you cite could be excepted quite easily, but I suspect that they are quite a small percentage of the whole.

But park and ride is the way forward.

jobbridge4life · 15-09-2015 2:37pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Plenty of private sector workers need to drive around with their job.

And plenty of private sector workers get free parking if their employers bother to provide it. Some even get free food and doctors on call. So what is your point.

bk · 15-09-2015 3:48pm

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, one thing we could do is to work to have, say, 85 percent of our mechanised road traffic between the canals as self-driving vehicles by 2030.

I actually wouldn't call that blue sky thinking.

While I'm not certain of the date it will happen, I'm 100% certain that the future of the automobile industry is electric powered automated vehicles, where most people rent (pay as you go or subscription service) from the likes of Uber, Google, etc. rather then own their own vehicle.

I've read a great deal of academic research into this area and the numbers are such that these will be a massive revolution of transport and perhaps even society as we know it.

The numbers estimate that it will cost roughly half of my Dublin Bus fare to rent an on demand automated electric car to make the same journey!!!

This will have a number of pros and cons, on the pros:

- Big reduction in automobile deaths and injuries due to drunk, drugged and distracted driving.
- Greater freedom and mobility for elderly and disabled people, as well as children who will be able to travel by these vehicles.
- Big reduction in peoples spending on transport, averaging 10 to 50% of the cost of owning a car.
- Big reduction in pollution in cities due to no tail pipe emissions.
- Big reduction in noise disturbance as electric cars are much quieter.
- Big increase in road capacity as these electric cars will better fit our actual needs. Most of them will be one or two seater small vehicles with just enough battery power to complete your indicated journey. This will mean more vehicles can fit on the road.
- Also because all these vehicles will be communicating with one another, they will be able to use the road space much more efficiently.
- Package, grocery and take out deliveries will be delivered by driver less vehicles.

Cons:

- Big lose of jobs for anyone who works in driving, taxi drivers, bus drivers, delivery people, etc.
- Also potentially big reduction in car dealerships, mechanics, etc.

antoinolachtnai · 15-09-2015 4:17pm

The thing that is different is to take advantage of the extra road capacity that automatic cars generate and use this as an alternative to building transport tunnels of one sort or another.

All the points about pros and cons are true, but as you say, all these things will happen anyway, sooner or later.

a.

bk · 15-09-2015 6:24pm

Another thing I just thought of.

It has often been suggested that schools should start before or after rush hour, in order to reduce traffic. But that has generally failed to get popular support due to parents wanting to drop kids off on their way to work.

However with self driving cars, you could change school starting times to 10:00am and it would be less of an issue as the parents could continue to go to work for 9am, while the kids jump in the self driving car for 10am school start.

This could help greatly to stager the morning commute.

jobbridge4life · 15-09-2015 6:29pm

Underground roads and car parks. taking people into the city centre undeground leading to various large underground car parks at appropriate locations and access to public transit. Toll the underground roads but less so than tolls on above ground roads.

bk · 15-09-2015 6:41pm

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Underground roads and car parks. taking people into the city centre undeground leading to various large underground car parks at appropriate locations and access to public transit. Toll the underground roads but less so than tolls on above ground roads.

Well maybe underground roads, but underground car parks would be a massive waste of money in a future with self driving cars.

With self driving cars we will need far less premium city center parking. The self driving car will simply drop you off at work and then it will drive itself to a car park a little further out of the city (close, but not right in the city center) where it will park for the day and charge. It would then automatically return to your office just in time for when you finish work.

jobbridge4life · 15-09-2015 6:44pm

bk wrote: »

Well maybe underground roads, but underground car parks would be a massive waste of money in a future with self driving cars.

With self driving cars we will need far less premium city center parking. The self driving car will simply drop you off at work and then it will drive itself to a car park a little further out of the city (close, but not right in the city center) where it will park for the day and charge. It would then automatically return to your office just in time for when you finish work.

Assuming we privilege sprawl over an immediate investment. The underground car parks could also be used to provide parking for those without car parking associated with their accommodation in the driver-less future.

Quasi Realistic Blue sky thinking

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