Summer 2015 Transfer Window General Discussion

28-08-2015 12:14PM

Trond wrote: »

Nonsense. He was their player of the year not so long ago. He didn't fit into Mourinhio system. Hes in the Top 5 in Europe for assists in the last 5/6 seasons.

I'd argue he'd have done better than Willian on the right or Oscar/Willian/fabregas in the number 10. And by quite a distance too.

28-08-2015 12:15PM

Trond wrote: »

Nonsense. He was their player of the year not so long ago. He didn't fit into Mourinhio system. Hes in the Top 5 in Europe for assists in the last 5/6 seasons.

Good enough for Chelsea and good enough for Utd are two different things tbh

28-08-2015 12:38PM

CSF wrote: »

Juan Mata was a 2 time player of the year for Chelsea. Regardless of how it ended, you couldn't say he 'didn't make the grade'. Mourinho just decided to cash in and go a different way. De Bruyne completely did not make the grade. Just looked there and he played 132 minutes for Chelsea so Mata comparisons aren't right there.

The Mata comparisons are right as Mata was turfed out pretty quickly once Mourinho got the job. Now Oscar and Willian are both very replaceable players at Chelsea.

He played 132 minutes for Chelsea and you're happy to use that as a judgement?

Godot. · 28-08-2015 12:39PM

Coleman to PSG?!

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/report-psg-have-made-a-bid-for-seamus-coleman/37460

razorblunt · 28-08-2015 12:42PM

Godot. wrote: »

Coleman to PSG?!

http://www.sportsjoe.ie/football/report-psg-have-made-a-bid-for-seamus-coleman/37460

I refuse to believe that, mainly as it's a joe article that's hasn't got 7 tweets in it.

pmasterson95 · 28-08-2015 12:45PM

CSF wrote: »

I think we can draw the conclusion that he did not make the grade at Chelsea only 2 years ago. There are the arguments for the other side too (which I've pointed out) but those are the facts at the same time.

Pique didnt supplant Vidic or Ferdinand at Man U. Doesnt mean hes crap. Infact I think the lad has managed to earn a few medals since then.

Of course Mourinho also decided Matic did not "make the grade". But I think that decision proved quite costly to fix. What do you think of Matic?

pmasterson95 · 28-08-2015 12:46PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

Good enough for Chelsea and good enough for Utd are two different things tbh

Why mention Utd I wonder. Hmmmm

Francie Barrett · 28-08-2015 12:47PM

Coleman's form has went into the ditch over the last year.

Giggsy11 · 28-08-2015 12:50PM

CSF wrote: »

I think we can draw the conclusion that he did not make the grade at Chelsea only 2 years ago. There are the arguments for the other side too (which I've pointed out) but those are the facts at the same time.

Fact which doesn't tell full story when seen without context. Use the same facts for Rossi, Pique and Pogba at United, they didn't make grade at United because they weren't given proper chances and all of them went on to become world class players and at some point in their career they were good enough for any team in the world.

RasTa · 28-08-2015 12:50PM

Yeah Cech isn't good enough for United either, Sturridge is another cast off and the same for De Bruyne and that Matic lad Chelsea god rid of wasn't very good either..

Jose knows best..

CSF · 28-08-2015 12:52PM

AdamD wrote: »

The Mata comparisons are right as Mata was turfed out pretty quickly once Mourinho got the job. Now Oscar and Willian are both very replaceable players at Chelsea.

He played 132 minutes for Chelsea and you're happy to use that as a judgement?

I'm using the fact that he only played 132 minutes as a potential judgement. Even Mata played a decent amount for Chelsea under Mourinho before being sold.

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Pique didnt supplant Vidic or Ferdinand at Man U. Doesnt mean hes crap. Infact I think the lad has managed to earn a few medals since then.

Of course Mourinho also decided Matic did not "make the grade". But I think that decision proved quite costly to fix. What do you think of Matic?

These are exceptions. Not the norm. There are significantly more examples I could quote that didn't make the grade somewhere big and never became an elite European player. Pique never failed at United in any case. At 21 at United it was clear he was going to make waves there, but then Barcelona signed him instead.

I never wrote De Bruyne off in any case. I watch alot of Bundesliga and thought he was immense last season, but like Matic when he came back from Benfica, there was obviously significant doubt there. He has now wiped that doubt away. De Bruyne needs to do the same.

CSF · 28-08-2015 12:54PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Fact which doesn't tell full story when seen without context. Use the same facts for Rossi, Pique and Pogba at United, they didn't make grade at United because they weren't given proper chances and all of them went on to become world class players and at some point in their career they were good enough for any team in the world.

Rossi never became world class that is hilarious. Also, Pique and Pogba never failed at United so your point is ridiculous. United did not want either of Pique and Pogba to leave and it was always likely they would go onto greatness.

28-08-2015 12:55PM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Why mention Utd I wonder. Hmmmm

He plays for Utd. They are his current club. Mourinhio sold him to them a few years back.

Debating football is surely what the forum is about, rather than hmmmm posts?

Shoot my opinion down no problem, sure that's the point of the SF

28-08-2015 12:58PM

Francie Barrett wrote: »

Coleman's form has went into the ditch over the last year.

True, still good but not standout

eagle eye · 28-08-2015 01:05PM

rarnes1 wrote: »

True, still good but not standout

I presume you are talking about his attacking threat because he has certainly become a better defender over the last 18 months of so.

abelard · 28-08-2015 01:18PM

pmasterson95 wrote: »

Pique didnt supplant Vidic or Ferdinand at Man U. Doesnt mean hes crap. Infact I think the lad has managed to earn a few medals since then.

Of course Mourinho also decided Matic did not "make the grade". But I think that decision proved quite costly to fix. What do you think of Matic?

Don't disagree with your overall point, but don't think Mourinho was manager either when Chelsea first bought Matic or when they sold him.

Giggsy11 · 28-08-2015 01:21PM

CSF wrote: »

Rossi never became world class that is hilarious. Also, Pique and Pogba never failed at United so your point is ridiculous. United did not want either of Pique and Pogba to leave and it was always likely they would go onto greatness.

Even Chelsea didn't want KDB to leave, he left. KDB didn't fail at Chelsea. So your point is nonsense.

Yeah Rossi was never world class but he was close and Barca were close to signing him just that the asking price was too big so they dropped their interest and Rossi got injured.

CSF · 28-08-2015 01:33PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Even Chelsea didn't want KDB to leave, he left. KDB didn't fail at Chelsea. So your point is nonsense.

Yeah Rossi was never world class but he was close and Barca were close to signing him just that the asking price was too big so they dropped their interest and Rossi got injured.

Is the implication here that De Bruyne wanted to play for Werder Bremen and Wolfsburg instead of Chelsea?

Whereas Pique and Pogba DID want to play for Barcelona and Juventus instead of Manchester United which isn't that strange. United had no say in Pogba leaving. He left on a free transfer.

Of course De Bruyne failed at Chelsea. He couldn't get in the team.

Lukker- · 28-08-2015 01:40PM

Mata was savage for Chelsea but he needed the whole system to be built around him in those seasons where got outstanding numbers. It became clear after 2 average enough seasons in the league that we couldn't continue to build the team around Mata because his good form alone couldn't carry them. He has yet to come close to those numbers at United because Van Gaal and Moyes didn't try and build the system around him either.

snowblind · 28-08-2015 01:46PM

CSF wrote: »

Is the implication here that De Bruyne wanted to play for Werder Bremen and Wolfsburg instead of Chelsea?

Whereas Pique and Pogba DID want to play for Barcelona and Juventus instead of Manchester United which isn't that strange. United had no say in Pogba leaving. He left on a free transfer.

Of course De Bruyne failed at Chelsea. He couldn't get in the team.

The logic of the laste sentence could be used in a wild variety of cases
"Of course Pogba failed at ManU. He couldn't get in the team" for example.

Pogba wanted to play at ManU but didn't get to play, that's why he wanted elsewhere. KDB wanted to play at Chelsea but didn't get to play, that's why he went elsewhere. The Chelsea problem is that they buy a lot and a lot of the players never get a decent chance. If you don't get a decent chance, you might want to look elsewhere. It worked out for KDB as he is coming back. That is hardly failing. Unfortunately City is another team like Chelsea where a lot of good players lose a year of their career due to a myriad selection of reasons, all of which cannot be just labelled "failing".

Giggsy11 · 28-08-2015 01:48PM

CSF wrote: »

Is the implication here that De Bruyne wanted to play for Werder Bremen and Wolfsburg instead of Chelsea?

Whereas Pique and Pogba DID want to play for Barcelona and Juventus instead of Manchester United which isn't that strange. United had no say in Pogba leaving. He left on a free transfer.

Of course De Bruyne failed at Chelsea. He couldn't get in the team.

KBD wanted to play in first team which he wasn't getting at Chelsea. How can player fail without getting proper chances. So it wasn't wanting to play for Wolfsburg than Chelsea, it's playing for Wolfsburg rather than warming bench at Chelsea.

Whether pique left for Barca, Juve or for Leicester doesn't matter. They failed to make grade at United and IIRC Pogba played more mins at ManUtd than KDB at Chelsea (if 132 mins is true).

In all these cases Clubs didn't want to lose players but they left for same reason. Playing for first team than on bench.

CSF · 28-08-2015 01:51PM

snowblind wrote: »

The logic of the laste sentence could be used in a wild variety of cases
"Of course Pogba failed at ManU. He couldn't get in the team" for example.

Pogba wanted to play at ManU but didn't get to play, that's why he wanted elsewhere. KDB wanted to play at Chelsea but didn't get to play, that's why he went elsewhere. The Chelsea problem is that they buy a lot and a lot of the players never get a decent chance. If you don't get a decent chance, you might want to look elsewhere. It worked out for KDB as he is coming back. That is hardly failing. Unfortunately City is another team like Chelsea where a lot of good players lose a year of their career due to a myriad selection of reasons, all of which cannot be just labelled "failing".

To be fair here, Pogba is younger NOW than De Bruyne was when he left Chelsea. The cases can't be compared. There won't be many talents that special that they can demand first team football at a European elite club at the age of 18 and move to another if they don't get it.

Whereas De Bruyne failed at Chelsea and had to go to Werder Bremen and Wolfsburg to work his way up to another shot at the big time. Now he's going to get that 2nd shot at the big time and needs to succeed this time. Note that I've never said he wouldn't. All I said there are still doubts surrounding him and people jumped on with this whole 'omgz Mourinho lets loads of great players go, Pogba is great' thing.

CSF · 28-08-2015 01:53PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

KBD wanted to play in first team which he wasn't getting at Chelsea. How can player fail without getting proper chances. So it wasn't wanting to play for Wolfsburg than Chelsea, it's playing for Wolfsburg rather than warming bench at Chelsea.

Whether pique left for Barca, Juve or for Leicester doesn't matter. They failed to make grade at United and IIRC Pogba played more mins at ManUtd than KDB at Chelsea (if 132 mins is true).

In all these cases Clubs didn't want to lose players but they left for same reason. Playing for first team than on bench.

Pique did not leave to get first team football. He left because the biggest club in the world (well them or Real) wanted him to play first team football for them. Pogba was 18 when not getting first team football. For someone who rattles on about context you don't apply much of it.

Giggsy11 · 28-08-2015 02:01PM

CSF wrote: »

Pique did not leave to get first team football. He left because the biggest club in the world (well them or Real) wanted him to play first team football for them. Pogba was 18 when not getting first team football. For someone who rattles on about context you don't apply much of it.

Eh? That just shows your initial point was wrong without context and I just gave examples for it.

You are just giving excuses for Pique, Pogba while not applying same logic for KDB.

CSF wrote: »

I think we can draw the conclusion that he did not make the grade at Chelsea only 2 years ago. There are the arguments for the other side too (which I've pointed out) but those are the facts at the same time.

CSF · 28-08-2015 02:03PM

Giggsy11 wrote: »

Eh? That just shows your initial point was wrong without context and I just gave examples for it.

You are just giving excuses for Pique, Pogba while not applying same logic for KDB.

There are no excuses for De Bruyne. He was at an age where first team football is more than common and could not break his way into the team. That is the reality. Blaming the manager for De Bruyne not being able to get in the team makes no sense.

De Bruyne has loads to prove that he's going to be able to excel at a big club in a league with the crazy pinball tempo that is the Premier League.

28-08-2015 02:18PM

Yay another thread that been derailed by a pissing contest

CSF · 28-08-2015 02:20PM

Gabriela Some Phlegm wrote: »

Yay another thread that been derailed by a pissing contest

What? A discussion in the transfer thread about the biggest transfer of the summer? Lets get back on topic.

28-08-2015 02:22PM

CSF wrote: »

What? A discussion in the transfer thread about the biggest transfer of the summer? Lets get back on topic.

It's not a discussion its yet another my teams better than your team endless pointless argument also I fail to see how mata is relevant there has been little said about kdb

Andersonisgod · 28-08-2015 02:23PM

On the De Bruyne thing, he's a fantastic signing. You can't judge his quality based on his time at Chelsea, in truth it's tough to judge a player's quality when they play under a manager who is as extreme in their philosophy as Mourinho is. For Mourinho, the philosophy comes before all others, if the player does not fit the philosophy then the player does not last very long at the club. De Bruyne, along with Mata and Luiz, were casualties of this. If you were to take Mata, De Bruyne and Luiz and match them up against Oscar, Willian and Cahill away from the Chelsea backdrop I think you could make a fair argument that the former 3 are more talented and more skilled than their Chelsea counterparts. This is not what Mourinho cares about because, in his philosophy, the individual does not take precedence. Oscar is more mobile than Mata and better when his team doesn't have the ball, Willian is more robust than De Bruyne and works harder off the ball, Cahill is less erratic than Luiz and is more suited to playing in a low block. That Mourinho ditched the former 3 players and stuck with the latter 3 isn't a comment on their individual quality, it's a matter of who best fits into his set up.

De Bruyne has shown that, free of the Mourinho shackles, he's a remarkable talent, the Bundesliga player of the year and a quality addition to any squad.

eh i dunno · 28-08-2015 02:27PM

Everton reject 20m bid from psg for Coleman. Talksport reporting so doubt there is much to it

Summer 2015 Transfer Window General Discussion

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