Is the Western World anti-man?

sunshine and showers · 19-08-2015 03:55PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

It shouldn't be part of this thread. Men face a lot of issues because of how insecure and PC everything has become. I don't blame women or feminism, I blame society for allowing it to happen in the first place.

I once saw on someone write that they'll only talk to a man if they can call themselves a feminist. I find that concept odd- why should I label myself a feminist? Surely that's being counterproductive to my own gender too? I mean, I'm better off just saying, screw feminism, screw masculinism, let's just have full equal rights across the board.

But that's what feminism IS. Cutting out the bullshít smearing of it (by all genders) and hijacking of it too. Feminists don't want to be MORE equal than men, so getting equal rights with men necessarily involves a corollary giving of "women only" rights to men.

Imnotthehulk · 19-08-2015 03:55PM

...AND THEY'RE RUINING VIDEO GAMES!

The whole Gamergate debacle and the hatred aimed at the likes of Anita Sarkeesian comes to mind when I see threads like this. A woman asks why video game protaganists are more often than not white males and why can't they be female a bit more? The very vocal minority responds by saying this is our thing, eff off and die, or we will rape and kill you.

I think society still has a lot of catching up to do in terms of gender equality (and I'm sure in a lot of other areas too). As a nation we have taken great steps over the last few decades. In my life on earth the wife in a marriage has gone from essentially being the husband's property to being an equal partner. OR not if they decide to divorce, which they can do now.

There are still stigmas attached to male victims of female aggression (sexual or otherwise). Some people seem to blame feminists because male victims can have trouble being taken seriously. But this has nothing to do with feminism, and has everything to do with society's view that women are the weaker gender. Feminists have had a hard enough time getting their rights recognised without having to worry about men's rights too, but that is not to say that men's rights aren't equally as important, it's just that they're focused on their own fight.

NachoBusiness · 19-08-2015 03:55PM

mariaalice wrote: »

As I always ask had anyone met an extreme feminist or even any average feminist in real life, has anyone been personally affected by a feminist agenda what laws in Ireland are anti men and have come about because of political lobbying by women.

Yeah, you always ask and then ignore or side step the answers.

In any case, society doesn't need to have legislation in place to mistreat males (although it does and you've been given examples of those by other users) as just the sheer attitude which was indoctrinated into society over the past three to four decades has sufficed in that regard. As Chris Rock says, you see a homeless guy with a dog, you feel sorry for the dog. Men are in the main inherently seen as less than women today. Much less. There is an inherent respect afforded to women. Your sensibilities are given regard, rightly so. Men's pretty much are not. Hence why guys such as those seeking father's rights in the UK felt the need to dress up as superheros and climb buildings to get some kind of media spotlight on their concerns. Women would never need to go to such drastic measures in western society today as lobby groups which represent your concerns have the ears of those in power.

Another symptom of the ever prevailing misandric attitude in western society I feel is the notion than men are inherently up to no good, as evidenced by the following guy who dared to take a selfie with a Star Wars mannequin and ended up being the victim of malicious gossip for his troubles, where even an image of him was circulated online.

One eyed Jack · 19-08-2015 03:56PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

See, you can twist words as you want, but they said that it is equally as bad. However, if it was equal, then surely there would be equal punishments.

Therefore, it is not equally as bad.

Nobody's twisting your words, you asked sunshine for her opinion and she gave you her opinion. Her opinion, like yours, is nothing to do with the law.

Gender blind laws btw are just stupid, and are no reflection of reality. I'd hate to live in a gender-blind egalitarian society. Sweden tried it, and it's only decades later people are beginning to see that by it's very aims it's ignoring context to get there, so these laws that might work in isolation, will never work in a broader context of the legal system as a whole.

19-08-2015 03:57PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

But that's what feminism IS. Cutting out the bullshít smearing of it (by all genders) and hijacking of it too. Feminists don't want to be MORE equal than men, so getting equal rights with men necessarily involves a corollary giving of "women only" rights to men.

And it's what masculinism is too. Or at least what it should be.

But what I'm saying is that we shouldn't have the need to have this split, you know?

Paramite Pie · 19-08-2015 04:01PM

Deleted User wrote: »

See, you can twist words as you want, but they said that it is equally as bad. However, if it was equal, then surely there would be equal punishments.

Therefore, it is not equally as bad.

Should we now ask every woman who was raped her opinion on female-on-male rape?? You really jumped right in there and no matter what, her answer would never have been good enough for you. You just dismissed her opinion with a Law that probably predates Feminism.

But Feminists aren't the only obstacle to getting these Laws changed. Men who report rape are laughed at by police, lawyers and all the way to the Court Room. It's a deeply rooted societal problem.

hatrickpatrick · 19-08-2015 04:02PM

zeffabelli wrote: »

Yeah it is an odd one but it happens.

I've seen feminists try to convince women that men they've been married to for 30 years are potential rapists.

I've seen stupid clumsy ignorant juvenile experiments tried to be ideogically converted in to attempted rape, by yes your friends, friends who think they are looking out for you.

The memory wars in the 1990s ruined lives, and it was a direct product of this victim glorification, Freudians, and confessional television.

"Memory wars"? That's a new one on me, I'm assuming it involves trying to "reprogram" someone's memory of an event they personally experienced? Bizarre concept really. Reminds me a bit of the whole "How many fingers am I holding up? *holds up three fingers*" part from 1984 in which O'Brien explains to Winston that even if he can see three fingers with his eyes, Big Brother is telling him there are four and to believe otherwise is an outrageous act of insurgency. :pac:

Wibbs · 19-08-2015 04:02PM

kinsy wrote: »

Some things that continue to highlight the lack of equality are things that aren't always deemed as important as issues like the pay gap.

Christ. *heads desk* there isn't one. As I pointed out earlier at 30 the average childless Irish woman is earning more than the average 30 year old Irish man. Source That's before we get to the ever widening education gap, that if it was favouring men there would be ructions over it(rightfully). More women are getting third level education, which gives them better opportunities in the workforce. Where a "gap" comes in is when they chose to have children, but before that point they earn more than men. The reason they earn less after kids is they're working less, change jobs, "downsize" their careers. If they have kids early it can interrupt education. I'd suspect working women having kids in their 30's face this issue much less(they also get much more leeway with taking a career break. Career breaks for men are death). So where women work equal hours as men they get paid the same, or even more. Those who are less well paid either work part time, or in lower paying sectors or work fewer hours. So unless someone wants to suggest paying women extra just because they've two X chromosomes then it is what it is.

Plus as has been pointed out, if women were 10 or 20% cheaper workers men would never find work.

TL;DR? Paygap = BS.

Noobas2 · 19-08-2015 04:03PM

4/5 or 80% western suicides are male.

smash · 19-08-2015 04:04PM

Paramite Pie wrote: »

Should we now ask every woman who was raped her opinion on female-on-male rape??

Nobody said that. But you go and jump on in there with a bit of sensationalism.

NachoBusiness · 19-08-2015 04:04PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I'd hate to live in a gender-blind egalitarian society. Sweden tried it, and it's only decades later people are beginning to see that by it's very aims it's ignoring context to get there, so these laws that might work in isolation, will never work in a broader context of the legal system as a whole.

Sweden didn't try egalitarianism. They tired state feminism.

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:08PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Christ. *heads desk* there isn't one. As I pointed out earlier at 30 the average childless Irish woman is earning more than the average 30 year old Irish man. Source That's before we get to the ever widening education gap, that if it was favouring men there would be ructions over it(rightfully). More women are getting third level education, which gives them better opportunities in the workforce. Where a "gap" comes in is when they chose to have children, but before that point they earn more than men. The reason they earn less after kids is they're working less, change jobs, "downsize" their careers. If they have kids early it can interrupt education. I'd suspect working women having kids in their 30's face this issue much less(they also get much more leeway with taking a career break. Career breaks for men are death). So where women work equal hours as men they get paid the same, or even more. Those who are less well paid either work part time, or in lower paying sectors or work fewer hours. So unless someone wants to suggest paying women extra just because they've two X chromosomes then it is what it is.

Plus as has been pointed out, if women were 10 or 20% cheaper workers men would never find work.

TL;DR? Paygap = BS.

That article still shows that there is a gender pay gap, no matter how many times you post it and claim otherwise.

Jimoslimos · 19-08-2015 04:11PM

The Corinthian wrote: »

Care to tell us what the maximum punishment for rape is, under law, then the maximum punishment for sexual assault, then let us know how equal this is that one gender is legally immune from such punishment.

The maximum punishment for aggravated sexual assault is the same as that for rape, life imprisonment.

Rape has a greater maximum punishment than sexual assault because there are the greater risks of physical trauma, disease transmission and unwanted pregnancy (for women).

One eyed Jack · 19-08-2015 04:11PM

sunshine and showers wrote: »

Key problem with this thread, and possibly in general society: none of us seem to actually know what feminism is. :rolleyes:

Those "feminists" who say they hate men or mock men's issues? Yeah, they're not actually feminists.

The term has been damaged, seemingly beyond repair. By men AND women.

No, the key problem is that people can identify for themselves what feminism or any other ideology / label whatever you can think of, means to them, and those people who say they hate men or mock men's issues, it's not up to you to decide they're not feminists if they identify themselves as feminists. If you support men and support men's issues and claim you're doing so because you're a feminist, well, that's equally eyebrow raising :pac:

The term hasn't been damaged at all, the ideology has been damaged, by people who are thinking of themselves and only themselves, because of the ideology of individualism and social justice and now everyone can be what they want to be and label themselves a genderless non-conforming brussel sprout called Barry if they want.

Who, outside of tumblr, takes that shìt seriously?

Sham Squire · 19-08-2015 04:12PM

Men crying about the unfairness in the world are like white people claiming that they're being "invaded" by people of colour. If either of these are your actually held opinion; not only are you just plain wrong, but you're an oxygen thief and the world would be a better place without you. That is all.

sunshine and showers · 19-08-2015 04:12PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Christ. *heads desk* there isn't one. As I pointed out earlier at 30 the average childless Irish woman is earning more than the average 30 year old Irish man. Source That's before we get to the ever widening education gap, that if it was favouring men there would be ructions over it(rightfully). More women are getting third level education, which gives them better opportunities in the workforce. Where a "gap" comes in is when they chose to have children, but before that point they earn more than men. The reason they earn less after kids is they're working less, change jobs, "downsize" their careers. If they have kids early it can interrupt education. I'd suspect working women having kids in their 30's face this issue much less(they also get much more leeway with taking a career break. Career breaks for men are death). So where women work equal hours as men they get paid the same, or even more. Those who are less well paid either work part time, or in lower paying sectors or work fewer hours. So unless someone wants to suggest paying women extra just because they've two X chromosomes then it is what it is.

Plus as has been pointed out, if women were 10 or 20% cheaper workers men would never find work.

TL;DR? Paygap = BS.

The gender pay gap exists. Just because it doesn't exist for childless 30 year old Irish women vs 30 year Irish men does not mean it doesn't.

In fact, the source you linked cites a near 14% pay gap for women with children vs men in general. And explicitly references a glass ceiling for women in higher earning positions, where the pay gap is nearly 25%.

Also, Ireland is one western country trying to alleviate the problem; the gender pay gap is a global problem. It's a simple truth: women around the world are not paid as much for their work as their male counterparts. There is not a single country where it has been eliminated. It won't be eliminated in my lifetime (unless I live to be Guinness World Record breakingly old).

TL;DR - sorry, but it's not bs.

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:13PM

Funny how feminists never talk about isis or countries like the Congo or Saudi Arabia. Guess real misogyny is too scary to face up to. No lets talk about computer games and fat shaming.

One eyed Jack · 19-08-2015 04:13PM

NachoBusiness wrote: »

Sweden didn't try egalitarianism. They tired state feminism.

That's what they ended up with :pac:

kinsy · 19-08-2015 04:14PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Christ. *heads desk* there isn't one.

TL;DR? Paygap = BS.

Ok, I think you may have missed my point. I plucked pay gap out of the air as an important issue- whether it is or not isn't really the point of my post. Don't feel the need to address any of what I was actually trying to say though...

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:14PM

Noobas2 wrote: »

4/5 or 80% western suicides are male.

Interstingly there have been studies showing that this is more to do with the manner in which men commit suicide than anything else. Men tend towards violent methods like hanging and (in countries where it's an option) shooting themselves. Women on the other hand tend towards methods such as poisoning /overdoses, which have a higher rate of survival. Failed suicides tend not to try again (not that they never do, but that is the tendency) so the result is a higher rate of successful suicides among men.

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:15PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Christ. *heads desk* there isn't one. As I pointed out earlier at 30 the average childless Irish woman is earning more than the average 30 year old Irish man.

Plus as has been pointed out, if women were 10 or 20% cheaper workers men would never find work.

TL;DR? Paygap = BS.

Don't forget the 1in4 myth.

kinsy · 19-08-2015 04:15PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Funny how feminists never talk about isis or countries like the Congo or Saudi Arabia. Guess real misogyny is too scary to face up to. No lets talk about computer games and fat shaming.

That is a ridiculous, sweeping statement. Feminists "never talk about X,Y,Z". How could you possibly know this?

zeffabelli · 19-08-2015 04:17PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

"Memory wars"? That's a new one on me, I'm assuming it involves trying to "reprogram" someone's memory of an event they personally experienced? Bizarre concept really. Reminds me a bit of the whole "How many fingers am I holding up? *holds up three fingers*" part from 1984 in which O'Brien explains to Winston that even if he can see three fingers with his eyes, Big Brother is telling him there are four and to believe otherwise is an outrageous act of insurgency. :pac:

http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/03/05/and-the-memory-wars-wage-on/

Basically the Freudian model is based on the family tragedy.

If you can't find something to feel like **** about keep looking.

Memory is very pliable and exploitable. It led to many false accusations, lawsuits, etc....

I don't think we've moved out of this victim culture yet.

Kev W · 19-08-2015 04:17PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Funny how feminists never talk about isis or countries like the Congo or Saudi Arabia. Guess real misogyny is too scary to face up to. No lets talk about computer games and fat shaming.

Yet another nonsense "opinion" disprovable by a simple Google search.

Must try harder.

desertcircus · 19-08-2015 04:18PM

Samuel Scary Urination wrote: »

How about backing up that statement?

If you seriously think male privilege is nonexistent in the western world, then there's no point in discussing it with you; I might as well try to explain the relationship between bond prices and interest rates to a pot of jam. I've had this argument on Boards a bunch of times, and it's incredibly tiresome. The standard tactic is to define privilege in an incredibly narrow way and then triumphantly declare you've won the argument, or to declare that a single example of a woman being treated better than a man shows that privilege goes the other way and refuse to acknowledge the massive structural biases and prejudices that exist which make things harder for women.

Here's a reversed challenge: define male privilege for me in a single post, and I'll see if I can make a case that it exists, providing that it's a fair definition.

blatantrereg · 19-08-2015 04:18PM

Old Jakey wrote: »

Funny how feminists never talk about isis or countries like the Congo or Saudi Arabia. Guess real misogyny is too scary to face up to. No lets talk about computer games and fat shaming.

Of course they do. It's just you interpret the word feminist to mean someone who goes on about things you consider frivolous. Feminist just means believing in equal treatment of the sexes. Most people on this thread seem to favour that idea, they just have different perceptions of what the differences are in how members of each sex are treated currently.

Old Jakey · 19-08-2015 04:19PM

kinsy wrote: »

That is a ridiculous, sweeping statement. Feminists "never talk about X,Y,Z". How could you possibly know this?

Yeah you're right actually. Now I remember all the slut walks protesting over what happened in Rotherham.

sunshine and showers · 19-08-2015 04:21PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

No, the key problem is that people can identify for themselves what feminism or any other ideology / label whatever you can think of, means to them, and those people who say they hate men or mock men's issues, it's not up to you to decide they're not feminists if they identify themselves as feminists. If you support men and support men's issues and claim you're doing so because you're a feminist, well, that's equally eyebrow raising :pac:

The term hasn't been damaged at all, the ideology has been damaged, by people who are thinking of themselves and only themselves, because of the ideology of individualism and social justice and now everyone can be what they want to be and label themselves a genderless non-conforming brussel sprout called Barry if they want.

Who, outside of tumblr, takes that shìt seriously?

They can call themselves feminists all they like - that doesn't mean they are right. Feminism = gender equality for women. True equality means gaining rights for women and, at the same time, giving rights to men. That means that yes, I can support men's issues and say it's in the name of feminism.

(Men's issues include mental health, sexual assault, domestic abuse. Men's issues do not include "that Diet Coke ad is sexualising me!!11!! - I have a limit.)

orubiru · 19-08-2015 04:21PM

Imnotthehulk wrote: »

...AND THEY'RE RUINING VIDEO GAMES!

The whole Gamergate debacle and the hatred aimed at the likes of Anita Sarkeesian comes to mind when I see threads like this. A woman asks why video game protaganists are more often than not white males and why can't they be female a bit more? The very vocal minority responds by saying this is our thing, eff off and die, or we will rape and kill you.

I think society still has a lot of catching up to do in terms of gender equality (and I'm sure in a lot of other areas too). As a nation we have taken great steps over the last few decades. In my life on earth the wife in a marriage has gone from essentially being the husband's property to being an equal partner. OR not if they decide to divorce, which they can do now.

Your first paragraph is a total misrepresentation of both Gamergate and Anita Sarkeesians work.

You claim that you want society to "catch up" but at the same time you appear to have no qualms whatsoever about misrepresenting people in order to get your point across.

I'm not saying you've done that intentionally but you've still done it.

Your post, to me, represents a major part of the problem online. Someone pops up, makes some inaccurate claims, then disappears again. People either agree or disagree with your post but the fact remains that you have not really given an honest description of gamergate (can anyone even agree on what "gamergate" actually is?) and I'm not really sure that you understand Anita Sarkeesians agenda at all.

super_furry · 19-08-2015 04:21PM

The boys go to Mars to get more bars,
The girls go to Jupiter to get more stupider!

Is the Western World anti-man?

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