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The great big "ask an airline pilot" thread!

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 727 ✭✭✭Lockheed


    A question more in general to airline pilots,
    What GPWS/TCAS alerts have you had? How did you get them?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    The whole story is an absolute load of b*llocks. There is no way the Flight control computers or engine FADEC computers could be controlled from a pax seat.
    He's just some kind of Walter Mitty character seeking attention

    Agreed, he refers to 'playing with EICAS messages' on a 737. A 737 does not have an EICAS system that displays any messages.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 922 ✭✭✭FWVT


    Where have you encountered the worst AT controllers?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    The whole story is an absolute load of b*llocks. There is no way the Flight control computers or engine FADEC computers could be controlled from a pax seat.
    He's just some kind of Walter Mitty character seeking attention

    Hacking into a plane from its entertainment system?? :D:D:D Jeez even the most basic computer whizzes in the business would surely seperate those two components, let alone the mechanics involved on an aircraft. Absolute fairytale!


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  • Subscribers Posts: 4,077 ✭✭✭IRLConor


    fr336 wrote: »
    Hacking into a plane from its entertainment system?? :D:D:D Jeez even the most basic computer whizzes in the business would surely seperate those two components, let alone the mechanics involved on an aircraft. Absolute fairytale!

    That article is about a 738, right? In that case it's almost certainly nonsense.

    OTOH, B787, A350 and A380 aircraft use a variant of ethernet called AFDX and there have been concerns that those networks are not fully "air gapped" from the entertainment systems. In other words, they use the same physical network and rely on software to keep the traffic separate.

    Now, I'm still pretty sceptical that a real attack was made. Even if the hardware is ethernet, I don't think the data link layer is standard ethernet and I'm not sure of the protocols the control systems would use on top of that. So it's not like you could use standard tools to probe the network. Even if you did have a fully working AFDX stack there are still firewalls in place (thanks to the FAA raising issues about the lack of an air gap several years ago) so you'd need to find and exploit a vulnerability in those.

    Personally I'm not happy about the lack of physical separation between the networks. I write software for a living so I'm deeply mistrustful of software.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,179 ✭✭✭✭fr336


    IRLConor wrote: »
    That article is about a 738, right? In that case it's almost certainly nonsense.

    OTOH, B787, A350 and A380 aircraft use a variant of ethernet called AFDX and there have been concerns that those networks are not fully "air gapped" from the entertainment systems. In other words, they use the same physical network and rely on software to keep the traffic separate.

    Now, I'm still pretty sceptical that a real attack was made. Even if the hardware is ethernet, I don't think the data link layer is standard ethernet and I'm not sure of the protocols the control systems would use on top of that. So it's not like you could use standard tools to probe the network. Even if you did have a fully working AFDX stack there are still firewalls in place (thanks to the FAA raising issues about the lack of an air gap several years ago) so you'd need to find and exploit a vulnerability in those.

    Personally I'm not happy about the lack of physical separation between the networks. I write software for a living so I'm deeply mistrustful of software.

    I stand corrected.

    father-dougal-mcguire.jpg

    Bit worrying it's possible...I was so sure of myself that it was impossible! I thought it'd be similar to how many redundancy systems there are on an aircraft - everything in completely independent places.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,006 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    What GPWS/TCAS alerts have you had? How did you get them?
    These days its EGPWS, generally we get them going into unlisted or new airports where the airport data hasn't made its way into the navigation database. Thankfully haven't seen these alerts when they weren't expected :)

    What type of TCAS alerts are you talking about?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 727 ✭✭✭Lockheed


    smurfjed wrote: »
    These days its EGPWS, generally we get them going into unlisted or new airports where the airport data hasn't made its way into the navigation database. Thankfully haven't seen these alerts when they weren't expected :)

    What type of TCAS alerts are you talking about?

    Out of the blue, at crusing altitude, and suddenly hearing "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭bkehoe


    Lockheed wrote: »
    Out of the blue, at crusing altitude, and suddenly hearing "TRAFFIC TRAFFIC"

    This is a TA, and not an alert that one needs to manoeuvre for. Probably get it once or twice a month. Perfectly normal if someone is climbing or descending at a high rate and hasn't reduced it when approaching their cleared altitude. Also possible while at the same altitude as someone else if passing nearby; usually have been warned by ATC who will also advise in advance of minimum separation before this though.

    Never had a RA (Resolution Advisory) though! :)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    Lockheed wrote: »
    A question more in general to airline pilots,
    What GPWS/TCAS alerts have you had? How did you get them?

    Just a "TERRAIN TERRAIN" warning on the circle-to-fix finals turn on the RNAV into the Seychelles. Briefed and expected so no concern.

    TCAS Traffic Alerts once a month or so. Only ever 1 Resolution Advisory.. "CLIMB, CLIMB NOW" due to a redneck cowboy in a USAF F15 over Slovakia.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭amen


    Just a "TERRAIN TERRAIN" warning on the circle-to-fix finals turn on the RNAV into the Seychelles. Briefed and expected so no concern.

    TCAS Traffic Alerts once a month or so. Only ever 1 Resolution Advisory.. "CLIMB, CLIMB NOW" due to a redneck cowboy in a USAF F15 over Slovakia.

    so what happened to the F15 pilot ? Written up ? Warning ? or nothing ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    amen wrote: »
    so what happened to the F15 pilot ? Written up ? Warning ? or nothing ?

    Absolutely no idea!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭basill


    so what happened to the F15 pilot ? Written up ? Warning ? or nothing ?

    Sometimes we is the mouse and they is the cat. Although they would be expected to turn off their transponder to avoid triggering a TA/RA in our cockpits. You would be amazed what goes on without us ever knowing.....


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    ........... Only ever 1 Resolution Advisory.. "CLIMB, CLIMB NOW" due to a redneck cowboy in a USAF F15 over Slovakia.
    Who let a redneck into an F-15!!!!!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


    The whole story is an absolute load of b*llocks. There is no way the Flight control computers or engine FADEC computers could be controlled from a pax seat.
    He's just some kind of Walter Mitty character seeking attention

    Ummm, unfortunately there may be something to this story.

    At the moment, nobody knows for sure whether the attack was performed in flight (the FBI allege it was), or in a virtual environment on the ground (as the researcher says). There are too many different stories in circulation, with too few details. And in both software and security, it's ALL about the details.

    There is some more here: https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2015/05/more_on_chris_r.html

    The takeaway quote is
    "I would like to see a transcript (of the interviews)," said one former federal computer crimes prosecutor, speaking on condition of anonymity. "If he did what he said he did, why is he not in jail? And if he didn't do it, why is the FBI saying he did?"
    And, more importantly:

    The real story that media outlets should be chasing isn't what Roberts did or didn't do on board a United flight in April, but whether there is any truth to longtime assurances from airplane makers like Boeing and Airbus that critical avionics systems aboard their aircraft are unreachable from systems accessible to passengers

    http://it.slashdot.org/story/15/05/18/2033242/chris-roberts-is-the-least-important-part-of-the-airplane-hacking-story


    Sadly, firewalls just aren't good enough for this task.

    By law & FAA regulation the Control Domain and the Entertainment Domain are supposed to be on separate hardware. But apparently some of the newer Aircraft (B787, A380?) got an exemption. I'll try to find a link for that if I can.

    I think Mr Roberts is about to join a long list of whistleblowers who have their lives ruined for the benefit of the rest of us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    OzCam wrote: »
    Ummm, unfortunately there may be something to this story.
    .

    There may be something to the story that Elvis faked his own death or that aliens landed in Roswell in in 1947...but that doesn't make it any more true.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    OzCam wrote: »
    I think Mr Roberts is about to join a long list of whistleblowers who have their lives ruined for the benefit of the rest of us.

    Or, more realistically, he joins a long list of Walter Mittys seeking their 15 minutes of Internet fame from the gibbering masses.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,045 ✭✭✭OzCam


    No, Mr Shorts. It would be great to say that you're right, but we can't say that yet.

    First, this guy is no numpty. Second, we're at the point in this story where the industry is insisting there's no issue, and the computer security experts are begining to say "hang on a second, they're on the same network, are you out of your ******* minds?"

    We've seen this sort of reaction before, in fact it's becoming a regular thing in the card payment & banking industry. A couple of years ago we never heard of breaches, now it's happening every few weeks.

    So at the moment it's neither Busted nor Confirmed. It is, however, Unlikely but Plausible. It definitely needs to be investigated.

    Any firewall can be breached eventually. And attacks always get better.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 922 ✭✭✭FWVT


    There's already a thread on this...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭lord lucan


    Can we continue this discussion in the appropriate thread please.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057431931


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    Shameless self-gloss:...

    Just been totalling my logbook and realised I've passed the 10,000 hour milestone, 18 years since the first entry in my first logbook.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    Shameless self-gloss:...

    Just been totalling my logbook and realised I've passed the 10,000 hour milestone, 18 years since the first entry in my first logbook.

    Congratulations....

    However according to Micheal O'Leary that means you only work under 11 hours per week......:eek: :D
    (18x52=936, 10K /936= 10.68376......if we factor in 8 weeks leave per year you are still only at 12.6 hours per week)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,887 ✭✭✭billie1b


    Tenger wrote: »
    Congratulations....

    However according to Micheal O'Leary that means you only work under 11 hours per week......:eek: :D
    (18x52=936, 10K /936= 10.68376......if we factor in 8 weeks leave per year you are still only at 12.6 hours per week)

    Im working it out at 23 hours per week over an 18 year period, pretty average


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,681 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    Flying again today. This time with Delta, first time with them too. I'm on a B767-300. Haven't been on one of these before. It feels old and creaky!

    Anyway I'm on a 4 hour domestic US flight to the West coast and it got me thinking. Is there an agreed standard as to what constitutes long haul or short haul travel? Is it purely duration or does skipping timezones? (or is it called sectors?)

    Pilot is promising good flying conditions. Hope he's not telling porkies!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,006 ✭✭✭✭smurfjed


    So the system does work and protects against a crews lack of situational awareness!

    If Air France was a non European airline, they would most likely be banned from Europe due to their safety record!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 821 ✭✭✭eatmyshorts


    smurfjed wrote: »
    So the system does work and protects against a crews lack of situational awareness!

    If Air France was a non European airline, they would most likely be banned from Europe due to their safety record!

    Basic SA... Always know your MSA, especially when in a non radar environment.


  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 10,190 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tenger


    faceman wrote: »
    .....
    Anyway I'm on a 4 hour domestic US flight to the West coast and it got me thinking. Is there an agreed standard as to what constitutes long haul or short haul travel? Is it purely duration or does skipping timezones? (or is it called sectors?)
    Its all a bit vague...

    Wikipedia has these definitions:
    Short: <3 hrs
    Medium: 3-6
    Long: 6-12
    Ultra Long: >12 hrs

    For the travelling public anything over 4 hours is 'long'.
    US Domestic routes are a bit odd as they are very long but they are not treated the same as International. SOmeone recently posted how they flew 2 sectors with Delta (on the same aircraft) free headsets on the International but charge for them on the Domestic sector.

    Generally transoceanic is referred to as longhaul.....hence DUB-BOS-DUB is called longhaul when it just about gets into the over 6 hrs.

    So FR would be a short-medium operator, while Aer Lingus would be seen as Short and Longhaul operator. (Its assumed the Medium is also flown)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,516 ✭✭✭✭JCX BXC


    What about the Dublin-St Johns (DUB-YYT) flight? Medium or long? I'd consider it a long haul flight due to the eastbound flight being a Red eye flight.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 86 ✭✭olive20


    Deleted reply as Ive just noticed its for pilots to reply here. Oops sorry.


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