Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

MaxWig · 27-03-2015 09:31AM

Taliban/ISIS with their Shia Laws and some leaders in the Nuclear Armed Jewish State that are praying for an Armageddon make me very uneasy! Presidents of the US that have at nausea uttered "God Bless America" as if to elevate their country to some divine providence makes me cringe!

Me too. But it's not their religion that frightens me - It's their desire for power. Whether you bow to a crucifix or a flag, or stand for the national anthem, what difference does it make?

You believe the less religious US presidents have done less damage or taken less lives?

You genuinely believe God has anything to do with US interests abroad. You honestly think the commercial interests of Western countries are listening out for divine whispers?

Come on. The need to find a subject upon which to hang our fears is one of our main problems.

Would you vote for someone whom either openly admitted they believe the earth is only a few thousand years old and want that belief to be given equal or greater stature then evolution or that they believed in the tooth fairy and would die for their belief and conscript others to die also for it!

I wouldn't personally.

It is extremely naive based on historical and present day evidence to think politicians with extroverted religious beliefs are not a danger to society!

I never said that. I simply said that it is not their religious beliefs that are the problem.

We can hold individuals accountable for their actions but when it comes to religion the excuse is always the individual perverted religion! I say religion perverts good people and cause them to do bad things!

Good people?

Interesting idea. Where did you come up with that one? Sounds kinda religious. Benevolent monkeys is it?

The bad people are religious, the good one's secular. Apart from Hitler and Stalin and the like. Or sorry, maybe Hitler and Stalin were 'bad' people and so they didn't need religion? Is that right? I'm trying to follow the logic. And the people that killed millions at their behest? They were religious? No, wait. I'm confused.

hinault · 27-03-2015 09:35AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

It appears to me the same methods of interpreting symbols by those whom try to find meaning in the Quatrains of Nostradamus is needed to extract meaning from an otherwise pretty straightforward declaration from Christ.

So straightforward that you managed to extract entirely the wrong meaning.

jaffusmax wrote: »

Why could god/jesus not in all their eternal wisdom and knowledge not be able to speak and create the basis of a text that can be read throughout the ages without the need for subjective symbolism?

The gospels verses that you chose to quote here are crystal clear, despite your ability to extract entirely the wrong meaning.

katydid · 27-03-2015 09:39AM

hinault wrote: »

The gospels verses that you chose to quote here are crystal clear, despite your ability to extract entirely the wrong meaning.

In fairness, they are not "crystal clear". Crystal clear would be if Jesus was quoted as saying what you put forward as an interpretation. Jesus spoke in riddles for a reason, to make us think; I've no problem with that, but let's not pretend what he said was always straightforward.

hinault · 27-03-2015 09:47AM

katydid wrote: »

In fairness, they are not "crystal clear". Crystal clear would be if Jesus was quoted as saying what you put forward as an interpretation. Jesus spoke in riddles for a reason, to make us think; I've no problem with that, but let's not pretend what he said was always straightforward.

What Jesus tried to convey in the quoted verses is crystal clear.

Jesus is telling his apostles and the world that his message will bring discord. It will bring discord because some are wedded to sin and will fight tooth and nail to not only hold to that sin but to encourage others to enter in to that sin, so as to evade the teaching of Jesus Christ.

It is the reaction to the message of Jesus which will bring discord.

silverharp · 27-03-2015 09:52AM

katydid wrote: »

In fairness, they are not "crystal clear". Crystal clear would be if Jesus was quoted as saying what you put forward as an interpretation. Jesus spoke in riddles for a reason, to make us think; I've no problem with that, but let's not pretend what he said was always straightforward.

If he spoke in riddles could he not forsee that a unified church would be impossible using opaque and contraductory language. Didn't he even pray to himself in heaven that they would know they are one to show that he had sent himself. John17:21 ? He fails his own test

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 09:52AM

MaxWig wrote: »

The bad people are religious, the good one's secular. Apart from Hitler and Stalin and the like. Or sorry, maybe Hitler and Stalin were 'bad' people and so they didn't need religion? Is that right? I'm trying to follow the logic. And the people that killed millions at their behest? They were religious? No, wait. I'm confused.

Hitler was Catholic, the Nazi German army had Gott mit uns (God with us) on their belts. Stalin (Uncle Joe) trained as a priest which in his case helped him develop the idea of the personality cult that sprung up around him! Stalin also used many religious ideas like thought crimes and complete obedience to keep complete control!

Only relgion can make people mutalate female genatila and circumcise baby boys, in Jewish ritual, known as metzitzah b'peh, the practitioner, or mohel, places his mouth around the baby's penis to suck the blood to "cleanse" the wound. This also spreads herpes that can be fatal to newborns!

MaxWig · 27-03-2015 09:55AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Hitler was Catholic, the Nazi German army had Gott mit uns (God with us) on their belts. Stalin (Uncle Joe) trained as a priest which in his case helped him develop the idea of the personality cult that sprung up around him! Stalin also used many religious ideas like thought crimes and complete obedience to keep complete control!

Ah man - I can't even begin to follow you down this road.

The atrocities that man enacts are man's alone. You cannot blame religion.

You think that every soldier who did something monstrous was acting out some religious teaching that had polluted his mind?

Read the Stamford Prison Experiment. We need no gods

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:00AM

MaxWig wrote: »

Ah man - I can't even begin to follow you down this road.

The atrocities that man enacts are man's alone. You cannot blame religion.

You think that every soldier who did something monstrous was acting out some religious teaching that had polluted his mind?

Read the Stamford Prison Experiment. We need no gods

What I am trying to get across is that you can have psychopaths that happen to be Atheist but you have good reasonable people made do evil things because of religion!

It is wrong to claim Hitler was atheist and wrong to claim Soviet Russia committed crimes in the name of Atheism! Soviet Russia committed atrocities in the name of ideology!

In the case of ISIS and Crusaders of the Middle Ages yes I beleive soldiers who do something monstrous was acting out some religious teaching that had polluted his mind, I cannoo see why this would not happen again under certain circumstances!

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:01AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Only relgion can make people mutalate female genatila and circumcise baby boys, in Jewish ritual, known as metzitzah b'peh, the practitioner, or mohel, places his mouth around the baby's penis to suck the blood to "cleanse" the wound. This also spreads herpes that can be fatal to newborns!

The absence of a real belief in God in many countries has seen abortion proliferate there.

tommy2bad · 27-03-2015 10:02AM

silverharp wrote: »

That! also why would a deity want to be worshiped ? I can sort of understand a deity wanting to create life and I can understand people wanting to worship a deity but I can't see worship being a huge priority of the deity. How needy and insecure would it make it?

Which explains the lack of a cohesive religion!

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:02AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

It is wrong to claim Hitler was atheist and wrong to claim Soviet Russia committed crimes in the name of Atheism! Soviet Russia committed atrocities in the name of ideology!

You're not aware that Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia both tried to eradicate Christianity?

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:06AM

hinault wrote: »

The absence of a real belief in God in many countries has seen abortion proliferate there.

I believe personally abortion can be used as a last resort and only on case by case basis backed up by medical and psychological factors.
I do not believe a belief in a supernatural entity and believing to know its mind is justification for a blanket ban on abortion.
Abortion is not an easy topic and it should not be, but it should also not be something religion uses prey upon peoples sensibilities and fears!

TheLurker · 27-03-2015 10:07AM

MaxWig wrote: »

That may be the process, although its more complicated in my opinion.

But wishful thinking is not a purpose

The purpose is to distract people from hardship or fear under the false promise that something will make it better.

Which again is fine, wishful thinking can be a coping mechanism when there is genuinely nothing you can do about some hardship.

The problem is when the person genuinely thinks something will happen and then starts to alter behaviour around that belief.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:11AM

hinault wrote: »

You're not aware that Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia both tried to eradicate Christianity?

Christianity tried to eradicate Judaism, Islam and every pagan beleif under the sun. You also seem to forget that Pope Pius XII never condemned Hitler and approved of complete neutrality during WW2.
As I said Soviet Russia was based on ideology and committed crimes in the name of it. They did not commit crimes in the name of atheism!

katydid · 27-03-2015 10:12AM

silverharp wrote: »

If he spoke in riddles could he not forsee that a unified church would be impossible using opaque and contraductory language. Didn't he even pray to himself in heaven that they would know they are one to show that he had sent himself. John17:21 ? He fails his own test

I'm sure he could foresee that. Rather a church with different aspects, catering for different peoples and personalities, than a one size fits all. "One size fits all" generally doesn't really fit anyone.

Christians share the same fundamental beliefs.

In my Father's house there are many mansions.

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:13AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

I believe personally abortion can be used as a last resort and only on case by case basis backed up by medical and psychological factors.
I do not believe a belief in a supernatural entity and believing to know its mind is justification for a blanket ban on abortion.
Abortion is not an easy topic and it should not be, but it should also not be something religion uses prey upon peoples sensibilities and fears!

You cite physical injury to the body in order to try to charge religion.

But you refuse to cite the physical killing of human life to a real non-belief in God.

Your contradiction is apparent.

TheLurker · 27-03-2015 10:13AM

katydid wrote: »

I don't see the problem with reading and interpreting. It makes one think. And it's not for the select few. Anyone can read (or listen) and think... What would be the point in having everything handed on a plate? Human beings are designed to question and to think. And an awful lot of people are, and have been since the beginning of civilisation, fascinated and curious about the possibility of the divine.

And they have always just made the divine what ever they want it to be.

There have actually been studies done into this, the divine always ends up reflecting the social and moral attitudes of the time in which it is imagined. Even now you are changing the notion of god that the Israelites held and asserting your own moral notions onto what you imagine a god to be and to act.

We make up gods in order to lend authority to our own moral choices.

tommy2bad · 27-03-2015 10:15AM

marienbad wrote: »

That is just another way of rationalising the texts tommy, the fact of the matter is that Religion has being suppressing and then accepting science for 2000 years .

As time passes the texts are continuously rationalised to take account of new knowledge , so much for being for all time .

Paul rationalised slavery , fundalmentalists are doing the same with homosexuality . Where is this objective morality they speak of ?

Well science has been suppress science and then accepting it for as long, that's how it works.
You and I have been at this long enough now, you know I don't believe in objective morality, misspent long enough arguing with its proponents to be tired of it.
You might remember the variation of no true Scotsman used to jusjustify slavery, genocide and rape in the old tetestament. I objected to that too.
Apart from a bebelief in God we pretty much agree on everything.
I have no problem reconciling the existence of god with the reality I experience, you can't see a way for the two to coexist. And theirs no obligation on you to do so.
Nor on me to to do otherwise.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:16AM

hinault wrote: »

What Jesus tried to convey in the quoted verses is crystal clear.

Jesus is telling his apostles and the world that his message will bring discord. It will bring discord because some are wedded to sin and will fight tooth and nail to not only hold to that sin but to encourage others to enter in to that sin, so as to evade the teaching of Jesus Christ.

It is the reaction to the message of Jesus which will bring discord.

This is my big problem with Jesus Riddles and Symbolism, people are expected to listen and believe the interpretations of riddles from those whom claim to be wiser and whom know the mind of god. What a spectacularly clever way to control peoples minds but only if people are gullible enough to swallow what they are being fed!

Why do you think the Bible was only preached in Latin for so long, no one understood a thing and had to hear second hand from indoctrinated clergy what they had to do and think!

Everytime some tragic disater happen many either run for the Nostradums Quatrains or to the Bible!

MaxWig · 27-03-2015 10:16AM

What I am trying to get across is that you can have psychopaths that happen to be Atheist but you have good reasonable people made do evil things because of religion!

Speechless at that! Might be the most religious opinion I've ever heard. What are we on Joe Duffy? Good, reasonable people? Where the <snip> are these good, reasonable people?

It is wrong to claim Hitler was atheist and wrong to claim Soviet Russia committed crimes in the name of Atheism! Soviet Russia committed atrocities in the name of ideology!

You're missing the point - those World Wars had nothing to do with religion. The people that killed in them were not acting out of religious belief. They were just being human.

Everything is done in the name of ideology. We only need mass killing and extermination when two ideologies clash.

In the case of ISIS and Crusaders of the Middle Ages yes I beleive soldiers who do something monstrous was acting out some religious teaching that had polluted his mind, I cannoo see why this would not happen again under certain circumstances!

Naive. It sounds like a lovely way of thinking. Do something about religion and the world will be a better place! It's so beautifully childish as an outlook that it almost warrants pity. It would make a nice song lyric maybe.

In the year 2525, no more ISIS or crusaders - we'll all just get along.

Because they are the threats, right? Beheadings?

In terms of fanatical, murderous death gods, the west take the biscuit surely. The cold market driven secular west? No? ISIS are just a bunch of impotent <snip>-wits with sticks and knives.

The geopolitical background to these crisis all over the world, what do you blame for them? I know. Religion, right?

TheLurker · 27-03-2015 10:16AM

hinault wrote: »

But you refuse to cite the physical killing of human life to a real non-belief in God.

That is like saying "You blame football hooligans for violence in stadiums, but refuse to cite other violence to a real non-football hooligan belief" :rolleyes:

Atheists certainly kill people. Atheists certainly kill people for reasons. But saying they kill people due to a non-belief in God is nonsensical.

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:20AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Christianity tried to eradicate Judaism, Islam and every pagan beleif under the sun. You also seem to forget that Pope Pius XII never condemned Hitler and approved of complete neutrality during WW2.

Pope Pius XII most certainly opposed Nazism. You don't have to rely upon my telling you the truth about Pope Pius XII opposition to Nazism. Ask the folk at Yad Vashem (not that the Jews need to validate Pope Pius XII's opposition to Nazism).

jaffusmax wrote: »

As I said Soviet Russia was based on ideology and committed crimes in the name of it. They did not commit crimes in the name of atheism!

Soviet Russia did not do what it did in the name of religion.

I recommend that you read up upon the oppression of religion in Soviet Russia before making statements.
I suggest reading about how the Russian Orthodox and what it had to endure under communism in Russia.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:21AM

MaxWig wrote: »

Speechless at that! Might be the most religious opinion I've ever heard. What are we on Joe Duffy? Good, reasonable people? Where the <snip> are these good, reasonable people?

You're missing the point - those World Wars had nothing to do with religion. The people that killed in them were not acting out of religious belief. They were just being human.

Everything is done in the name of ideology. We only need mass killing and extermination when two ideologies clash.

Naive. It sounds like a lovely way of thinking. Do something about religion and the world will be a better place! It's so beautifully childish as an outlook that it almost warrants pity. It would make a nice song lyric maybe.

In the year 2525, no more ISIS or crusaders - we'll all just get along.

Because they are the threats, right? Beheadings?

In terms of fanatical, murderous death gods, the west take the biscuit surely. The cold market driven secular west? No? ISIS are just a bunch of impotent <snip>-wits with sticks and knives.

The geopolitical background to these crisis all over the world, what do you blame for them? I know. Religion, right?

I don’t think I said anywhere that taking religion out of the equation would solve all the worlds problems and I don’t think I said anywhere WW2 was a religious war!

It come from religious apologist the belief Hitler and Stalin committed crimes because they had not god! I was merely correcting that!

As I said Religion makes Good people do bad things, like having a Rabbhi Circumsise a perfect baby boy with a piece of metal and his mouth so as to make the child more perfect in the eyes of god!

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:24AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

This is my big problem with Jesus Riddles and Symbolism, people are expected to listen and believe the interpretations of riddles from those whom claim to be wiser and whom know the mind of god. What a spectacularly clever way to control peoples minds but only if people are gullible enough to swallow what they are being fed!

Why do you think the Bible was only preached in Latin for so long, no one understood a thing and had to hear second hand from indoctrinated clergy what they had to do and think!

Everytime some tragic disater happen many either run for the Nostradums Quatrains or to the Bible!

Given that the vast majority of people could not read or write up to and including 16th century, it mattered little whether the Bible was written/preached in Latin/Klingon/whatever you're having yourself.

The fact that the Bible was translated and communicated to the people in their own language since then shows that there was no attempt to try to conceal what the Bible contained and what the Bible teaches.

It would be meaningless to hand a text to a person who is illiterate and to expect them to read, much less understand, what is written.

The ordinary citizen today has far more access to knowledge of the Bible than knowledge of how their own government works and what their own government does. Maybe that's where you need to refocus your attention.

silverharp · 27-03-2015 10:27AM

katydid wrote: »

I'm sure he could foresee that. Rather a church with different aspects, catering for different peoples and personalities, than a one size fits all. "One size fits all" generally doesn't really fit anyone.

Christians share the same fundamental beliefs.

In my Father's house there are many mansions.

That point doesn't make sense , people in the Orthodox church have the same range of personalities as Catholics or Protestants .
The division is either a sign that only one particular church has the spirit and the rest are heritics or more likely no church has the spirit because it doesn't exist.

MaxWig · 27-03-2015 10:29AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

As I said Religion makes Good people do bad things, like having a Rabbhi Circumsise a perfect baby boy with a piece of metal and his mouth so as to make the child more perfect in the eyes of god!

How do you decide who is good and who is bad?

And what has religion got to do with it?

And seeing as everyone exists within an ideology, doesn't equating evil with ideology or religion eradicate the distinction?

That is, religion and/or anything else has the potential to add to an individuals potential to do bad things!

I could agree with that

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:30AM

hinault wrote: »

Pope Pius XII most certainly opposed Nazism. You don't have to rely upon my telling you the truth about Pope Pius XII opposition to Nazism. Ask the folk at Yad Vashem (not that the Jews need to validate Pope Pius XII's opposition to Nazism).

Soviet Russia did not do what it did in the name of religion.

I recommend that you read up upon the oppression of religion in Soviet Russia before making statements.
I suggest reading about how the Russian Orthodox and what it had to endure under communism in Russia.

Pope Pius stayed remarkably silent during WW2.

You did not read my comment, I said Soviet Russia did not commit crimes in the name of Atheism, Atheism is not a religion or a belief system. Soviet Russia persecuted many groups in the name communist ideology! I am countering the arguement that Statlin/Soviet Russia committed crimes because of their lack of god!

hinault · 27-03-2015 10:31AM

jaffusmax wrote: »

Pope Pius stayed remarkably silent during WW2.

Folks at Yad Vashem in Israel disagree. As do I.

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:32AM

MaxWig wrote: »

How do you decide who is good and who is bad?

And what has religion got to do with it?

And seeing as everyone exists within an ideology, doesn't equating evil with ideology or religion eradicate the distinction?

Personal responsibility, common sense and secular laws would generally agree that cutting the foreskin off a baby with a piece of metal held in an old man mouth was wrong and illegal! Only religion seems to make such act accpetable!

jaffusmax · 27-03-2015 10:33AM

hinault wrote: »

Given that the vast majority of people could not read or write up to and including 16th century, it mattered little whether the Bible was written/preached in Latin/Klingon/whatever you're having yourself.

The fact that the Bible was translated and communicated to the people in their own language since then shows that there was no attempt to try to conceal what the Bible contained and what the Bible teaches.

It would be meaningless to hand a text to a person who is illiterate and to expect them to read, much less understand, what is written.

The ordinary citizen today has far more access to knowledge of the Bible than knowledge of how their own government works and what their own government does. Maybe that's where you need to refocus your attention.

Why did the church not teach them to read their most sacred text?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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