Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 01:21PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

I don't think humans would have survived the evolutionary process if they thought it was ok to kill one another. Most animals don't kill one another. But good men do kill when their god condones Genocide and Infanticide or their churches begin Jihads or Crusades!

Or their leaders, friends, families, political establishment.

Men don't need Gods to tell them to kill.

They just need the nod from someone in control

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 01:54PM

Evidence is the one thing that every religious apologist falls down on!

silverharp · 26-03-2015 02:05PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Christianity has spread and continues to spread throughout the world.
Scripture is quite clear that Jewish, Christian or not, everyone faces God's judgement, sooner or later.

Absurd , people that never heard of the god subject to its judgement ........

TheLurker · 26-03-2015 02:06PM

ABC101 wrote: »

The OT is about Israel. The other considerations I have asked you to bear in mind such as cultural, political, historical, language, agendas of different arthor's etc you just brush aside and ignore. It's all blame God, Blame God.

What are you talking about?

We are not blaming God. The Bible is blaming God.

I'm not sure if you just didn't know that, or what? But the Bible specifically says it was God. I don't believe it was God because I don't believe God exists. But if you believe in the Bible and believe God exists it seems inconsistent to strip out these parts.

TheLurker · 26-03-2015 02:07PM

MaxWig wrote: »

So long as you don't think Faith actually does anything visible?

Faith, if we accept it exists, by definition does something.

I meant to improve the situation face by the person suffering.

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 02:07PM

TheLurker wrote: »

What are you talking about?

We are not blaming God. The Bible is blaming God.

I'm not sure if you just didn't know that, or what? But the Bible specifically says it was God. I don't believe it was God because I don't believe God exists. But if you believe in the Bible and believe God exists it seems inconsistent to strip out these parts.

None of us said anything we cannot back up from the bible!

TheLurker · 26-03-2015 02:09PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

None of us said anything we cannot back up from the bible!

Most Christians in my experience come to the Bible in very round about ways. They tend to be die hard believers by the time they get to these passages, and can find them troublesome but they then must reconcile them with what they have decided to believe about God.

Leads to some interesting interpretations :pac:

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 02:17PM

TheLurker wrote: »

I meant to improve the situation face by the person suffering.

If someone is suffering alone in a hospital bed, your presence can be enough.

You are not doing much to alter the situation. But it may feel huge to the person.

Faith, I can easily imagine might similarly work.

I have no reason or evidence to contradict it

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 02:19PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Most Christians in my experience come to the Bible in very round about ways. They tend to be die hard believers by the time they get to these passages, and can find them troublesome but they then must reconcile them with what they have decided to believe about God.

Leads to some interesting interpretations :pac:

I just find it ironic that I was told I had a primitive understanding of a primitive text from a primitive belief system attributed to primitive humans!

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 02:21PM

MaxWig wrote: »

If someone is suffering alone in a hospital bed, your presence can be enough.

You are not doing much to alter the situation. But it may feel huge to the person.

Faith, I can easily imagine might similarly work.

I have no reason or evidence to contradict it

My dog snuggles up to me when scared or ill. I do not think that has anything to do with faith. More pack mentality!

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 02:27PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

My dog snuggles up to me when scared or ill. I do not think that has anything to do with faith. More pack mentality!

I wouldn't imagine that has anything to do with faith either.

Or that design show on tv where they change a room completely. Also nothing to do with faith

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 02:37PM

MaxWig wrote: »

So long as you don't think Faith actually does anything visible?

Faith, if we accept it exists, by definition does something.

Placebo effect!

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 02:51PM

jaffusmax wrote:

Placebo effect!

Effect being the operative word

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 02:55PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Effect being the operative word

As in a person can get the same effect from reiki healing as from a witchdoctor. But the effect of a placebo on serious illness is not a risk any reasonable person would take!
If I get sick I go see a doctor not a priest!

silverharp · 26-03-2015 03:05PM

I wonder do any amputees ever go to Lourdes looking for a cure or ask their church to pray for their missing limb to come back? Or would they be laughed at by their church and told instead ask instead for some non descript niggle to be healed ?

tommy2bad · 26-03-2015 03:18PM

marienbad wrote: »

So this gives you a get out of jail card everytime , the bad things are allegorical the good things ( according to Christian ) are literal .

And it changes over time with the advancement of science , right now you have one half of Christendom accepting evolution and the other half wanting creationism taught in the science classes and all basing their arguments on the same texts .

No it dose not. Either we accept that the God of the O.T. is the same God as the N.T. or we have no God at all! The question is not whether God commanded genocide or not, the question is how did the Hebrews ever think God would? One of the great difficulty in reading old texts is getting your self into the mindset of the people who wrote it. Discrepancies between the O.T. God and the new can be seen not as differences in God but in the understanding of god.
It's not a get out of jail card, it's a humbling admition of our failings.
I doubt interpretation of the text is the driving force in creationism, I suspect its far more about identity politics with creationism as a flag to wave.
Sadly most religion is tribal, far more about how we see ourselves than how we see God.

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 03:30PM

jaffusmax wrote:

As in a person can get the same effect from reiki healing as from a witchdoctor. But the effect of a placebo on serious illness is not a risk any reasonable person would take! If I get sick I go see a doctor not a priest!

But you're implying people use faith as a means to avoid sickness, or some other misfortune.
The argument seems to be that faith is pointless. But if it has a positive effect on the person of faith then that is not the case.

marienbad · 26-03-2015 03:31PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

No it dose not. Either we accept that the God of the O.T. is the same God as the N.T. or we have no God at all! The question is not whether God commanded genocide or not, the question is how did the Hebrews ever think God would? One of the great difficulty in reading old texts is getting your self into the mindset of the people who wrote it. Discrepancies between the O.T. God and the new can be seen not as differences in God but in the understanding of god.
It's not a get out of jail card, it's a humbling admition of our failings.
I doubt interpretation of the text is the driving force in creationism, I suspect its far more about identity politics with creationism as a flag to wave.
Sadly most religion is tribal, far more about how we see ourselves than how we see God.

That is just another way of rationalising the texts tommy, the fact of the matter is that Religion has being suppressing and then accepting science for 2000 years .

As time passes the texts are continuously rationalised to take account of new knowledge , so much for being for all time .

Paul rationalised slavery , fundalmentalists are doing the same with homosexuality . Where is this objective morality they speak of ?

TheLurker · 26-03-2015 03:33PM

MaxWig wrote: »

You are not doing much to alter the situation. But it may feel huge to the person.

I think not dying of the disease would feel huge to the person as well. :rolleyes:

Never getting the disease in the first place is a lot better than comforting the person while they are slowly dying of it.

katydid · 26-03-2015 03:34PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

No it dose not. Either we accept that the God of the O.T. is the same God as the N.T. or we have no God at all! The question is not whether God commanded genocide or not, the question is how did the Hebrews ever think God would? One of the great difficulty in reading old texts is getting your self into the mindset of the people who wrote it. Discrepancies between the O.T. God and the new can be seen not as differences in God but in the understanding of god.
It's not a get out of jail card, it's a humbling admition of our failings.
I doubt interpretation of the text is the driving force in creationism, I suspect its far more about identity politics with creationism as a flag to wave.
Sadly most religion is tribal, far more about how we see ourselves than how we see God.

God is neither the God of the OT or of the NT. God is simply God. What is described in the Old and New Testaments is human beings' ways of trying to explain God. The God understood by a primitive tribal people in an area full of many "gods" and the God understood by a sophisticated society like Palestine at the time of Jesus, and the God understood by a group of people starting a new religion based on a new relationship with God simply show their image of him. The reality behind it all is simply that God is the creator, and that God has a connection with mankind.

Explaining and trying to understand that relationship is the challenge for us.

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 03:45PM

katydid wrote: »

God is neither the God of the OT or of the NT. God is simply God. What is described in the Old and New Testaments is human beings' ways of trying to explain God. The God understood by a primitive tribal people in an area full of many "gods" and the God understood by a sophisticated society like Palestine at the time of Jesus, and the God understood by a group of people starting a new religion based on a new relationship with God simply show their image of him. The reality behind it all is simply that God is the creator, and that God has a connection with mankind.

Explaining and trying to understand that relationship is the challenge for us.

So many assumptions. Apparently god can create the universe and all its complexity yet he cannot create a unified and accessible religion in dedication to himself. So much effort to fall at the last hurdle!

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 04:50PM

TheLurker wrote:

Never getting the disease in the first place is a lot better than comforting the person while they are slowly dying of it.

TheLurker wrote:

I think not dying of the disease would feel huge to the person as well.

Sure it would. But what relevance has that. I'm not comparing science with religion.
I'm saying that faith has a purpose and provides something to the person involved.

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 04:52PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Sure it would. But what relevance has that. I'm not comparing science with religion.
I'm saying that faith has a purpose and provides something to the person involved.

A personal delusional placebo?

silverharp · 26-03-2015 05:02PM

jaffusmax wrote: »

So many assumptions. Apparently god can create the universe and all its complexity yet he cannot create a unified and accessible religion in dedication to himself. So much effort to fall at the last hurdle!

That! also why would a deity want to be worshiped ? I can sort of understand a deity wanting to create life and I can understand people wanting to worship a deity but I can't see worship being a huge priority of the deity. How needy and insecure would it make it?

TheLurker · 26-03-2015 05:12PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Sure it would. But what relevance has that. I'm not comparing science with religion. I'm saying that faith has a purpose and provides something to the person involved.

It provides no purpose other than wishful thinking, like I said.

jaffusmax · 26-03-2015 05:13PM

silverharp wrote: »

That! also why would a deity want to be worshiped ? I can sort of understand a deity wanting to create life and I can understand people wanting to worship a deity but I can't see worship being a huge priority of the deity. How needy and insecure would it make it?

You are also told it is a thought crime to try an understand and question gods will! I abstain from such a totalitarian and tyrannical supernatural regime!

RikuoAmero · 26-03-2015 06:23PM

The reality behind it all is simply that God is the creator, and that God has a connection with mankind.

I disagree with this, since as far as I'm aware, I have no such connection. Is it one way (God to humans) and I'm simply not aware of it, and if so, why not? Or is it two...and again, I'm not aware of it?
Also, assuming there is such a God, why should anyone, anyone at all, pay attention to a being with such poor communication skills? According to the religion you're a member, God is infinitely knowledgeable and wise. Therefore, he should know by default how to communicate with us in the most effective and most efficient manner possible so as to impart the most knowledge. If God does exist but chose for some reason to impart knowledge via inspired holy books or through visions and dreams to only select members of humanity (meaning that those are subjective experiences that no one else apart from the dreamer can examine or verify), then why should anyone else bother?

indioblack · 26-03-2015 06:49PM

tommy2bad wrote: »

No it dose not. Either we accept that the God of the O.T. is the same God as the N.T. or we have no God at all!

Do you really want the God of the OT? How much interpretation, re-interpretation, reassessment is required?
The God of the OT is the one presented to people and most Christians are expected to accept it - if they read it at all.

MaxWig · 26-03-2015 06:56PM

TheLurker wrote:

It provides no purpose other than wishful thinking, like I said.

That may be the process, although its more complicated in my opinion.

But wishful thinking is not a purpose

katydid · 26-03-2015 08:04PM

indioblack wrote: »

Do you really want the God of the OT? How much interpretation, re-interpretation, reassessment is required?
The God of the OT is the one presented to people and most Christians are expected to accept it - if they read it at all.

No, it's not and no, they're not.

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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