Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

RikuoAmero · 22-03-2015 05:41PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Jesus is literally making a claim about reality in that sentence :rolleyes:

And since he can't be bothered trying to support it, I have no choice but to disbelieve it.

Cen taurus · 22-03-2015 07:07PM

silverharp wrote: »

Why would a deity think that faith is important?

Why is faith in anything you value important ?

silverharp · 22-03-2015 07:25PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Why is faith in anything you value important ?

I have faith in things I know exist. I have yet to meet someone that had faith in a wife or husband they have never met?

Cen taurus · 22-03-2015 07:45PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Funny, the vast, vast, vast, majority of Christians I've talked to say that they believe Jesus is God precisely because of the miracles he purportedly performed. They point at them, say something along the lines of "Only God could've done that" and from there, imbue the morals and ethics of Jesus with infallibility/perfection. What about the story of Doubting Thomas, who put his hands on Jesus's wounds, and from there, believed Jesus to be God? Are you now going against Holy Scripture, against what the Holy Bible teaches?

And I say that that is <snip>. What you're arguing for there is not rational, not justified, but rather gullibility. You're arguing for people to believe all sorts of fantastical claims about this one specific (apparently) historical figure, disbelieve any similar claims other people have made either about themselves or others (e.g. the fantastical claims made about North Korea's Kim family) (you don't need to say it out loud, but this is very heavily implied by your posts), all based on not one iota of evidence...and somehow, this gullibility gets you eternal life.
Yes, this is con artist language. This is fraudster work. How dare you say to me that belief nets you eternal life, when you have NOTHING to show for it? You yourself haven't died and come back. You don't know anyone who has. I don't know anyone who has.
What's so special about the gullibility you promote? What does it teach if NOT a rejection of rationality and healthy minded skepticism? What makes the claim "Belief in Jesus = eternal life" superior to the claim "Belief in Muhammed/<insert-anyone-else-here> = eternal life"?
I will give you that answer. It is not. It is vacuous and empty. You have admitted you don't have evidence. You have admitted you don't want to provide evidence.
You have admitted to being a snake oil salesman when all you say is "It's about belief!"

Let me tell you this. Let's say, for sake of argument, Jesus IS God. Let's say I one day discover it and die and find myself in front of God and he says "Because you didn't believe, you don't get eternal life". I wouldn't want eternal life with that sort of a scumbag. I wouldn't want a god who is that idiotic, and that self-centred.

Another reason I hold your religion in contempt is that as per what you've said, it teaches you not to value this life. This life is precious because, as far as we can determine, it is the only life we have. The very fact that our time is finite pushes us, or ought to push us I should say, to eking out every possible joy out of our lives. If I were to take your view, I would be wasting my life in pointless ritual and ceremony (wasting my Sundays in mass for example, listening to the same old sermons), wasting what is precious and finite for an empty promise of something infinite that I have no rational reason to suppose is true.
So instead of worrying over it, over whether I've picked the "right" religion (what if it's belief in Muhammed that merits eternal life? If you're a christian, then you're <snip>), I live my life as how I see fit.

Here's a hard question for you Cen Taurus. In ANY other context, any other religion or claim, would you accept "It's all about belief" as a valid argument in that religion's or claim's favour? Would you, upon hearing that from say, a Hindu, say "Hmm, you know what, you're on to something there, you might just be right"?
If you say yes, then you're saying that your religion and that person's religion are equally valid, which is nonsense.
If you say no, then you're doing special pleading.

Thing is, what you've clearly demonstrated in this thread, and from this forum, is that you don't talk to Christians at all, you just talk over the top of them, or rant and rave the same tired old fallacies, strawmen, misrepresentations, prejudices, at them or about them, while Christians (when they can be bothered) correct them.

Christ is very clear in the scriptures, about the importance of faith and belief, and only faith and belief in Christ brings eternal life, not faith or belief in anyone or anything else.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

TheLurker · 22-03-2015 08:11PM

Cen taurus wrote:

Jesus said to him, â€œI am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

Another claim about reality.

Is what Jesus said accurate? Do Christians believe it is accurate? Can they support that claim? Do they care if it accurate?

Cen taurus · 22-03-2015 08:56PM

TheLurker wrote: »

Another claim about reality.

Is what Jesus said accurate? Do Christians believe it is accurate? Can they support that claim? Do they care if it accurate?

A belief/non belief is not a claim, it is a belief/non belief. If it were a claim then it would either be a fact or not a fact and therefore a false claim. It would not be a belief/non belief.

Belief : "I believe alien life exists"
vs
Claim : "Alien life exists"

Non belief : "I don't believe alien life exists"
vs
Claim : "Alien life does not exist"
or
Claim : "Anyone who believes in alien life is . . . . "
or
Claim : "Belief in alien life is a false belief because . . . . "
or
Claim : "I think you believe in alien life because . . . "
or
Claim : "Believers are . . . ."
etc.
etc.
etc.

RikuoAmero · 22-03-2015 09:07PM

Christ is very clear in the scriptures, about the importance of faith and belief, and only faith and belief in Christ brings eternal life, not faith or belief in anyone or anything else.

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me"

This is an empty claim. No matter how many times you try to spin it, it is a claim about reality, and one that is completely unsupported. It's incredibly easy to replace Jesus with any other individual and have it read as "Bob said "I am the way, the truth and the life yadda yadda yadda" and it has the EXACT same level of credibility, of plausibility.
You're writing as if mere beliefs, completely unsupported by any evidence, carry any weight at all. What's so important about such beliefs? What makes gullible belief so important to the god you worship? Why would your god apparently desire you to be so gullible?

You can say all you want that only faith in Christ grants one eternal life. So can the other guy over there, only he says it about Muhammed. So can the other guy, who says it about the Hindu gods. All of you are presenting completely empty claims, devoid of any substantiation and all of you are saying that faith in your own particular god(s) rewards one with eternal life.
Without evidence, all of you look the exact same to the non-believer.

while Christians (when they can be bothered) correct them.

Why should I give weight to these "corrections" if they're completely devoid of evidence, if the only important thing is that Christian Person X believes Thing Y, and that's enough? I don't care what it is you believe. I care if if you are able to substantiate it, and you take glee in not being able to do so, which to me appears to be complete insanity.

Going by what you've written here on this thread, it's almost like you think that people should believe Jesus is God...for literally no reason at all. You recognise that there's no evidence to support the claim, you recognise that even if evidence of the miracles were presented, I and others would still have trouble believing the God claim. It's almost like you just expect us to go one day "Right, belief switch flipped! I'm now a Jesus believer!" for literally no reason at all.

Christ is very clear in the scriptures, about the importance of faith and belief,

Then tell me what's so great about unsupported belief, about blind faith. Why is it so damned important to your god?

marienbad · 22-03-2015 09:14PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

A belief/non belief is not a claim, it is a belief/non belief. If it were a claim then it would either be a fact or not a fact and therefore a false claim. It would not be a belief/non belief.

Belief : "I believe alien life exists"
vs
Claim : "Alien life exists"

Non belief : "I don't believe alien life exists"
vs
Claim : "Alien life does not exist"
or
Claim : "Anyone who believes in alien life is . . . . "
or
Claim : "Belief in alien life is a false belief because . . . . "
or
Claim : "I think you believe in alien life because . . . "
or
Claim : "Believers are . . . ."
etc.
etc.
etc.

Matthew 26 : 33-35 Springs to mind .

Cen taurus · 22-03-2015 09:24PM

marienbad wrote: »

Matthew 26 : 33-35 Springs to mind .

The Merchant of Venice, Act 1, Scene 3, Springs to mind . . .

RikuoAmero · 22-03-2015 09:27PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

The Merchant of Venice, Act 1, Scene 3, Springs to mind . . .

If a Hindu walks up to you and says "Faith in my gods grants one eternal life" would you give any weight at all to what he's saying? Would you think that he is speaking truthfully?

Also, point out the strawmen, the fallacies etc in what I said before. It's one thing to accuse someone of those. It's another thing altogether to substantiate said claims (you have a reeeeallly bad problem with substantiation).

marienbad · 22-03-2015 09:30PM

Cen taurus wrote: »

The Merchant of Venice, Act 1, Scene 3, Springs to mind . . .

I think you need to https://youtu.be/aSmZfnax1yw

So how many times have you denied Christ at this stage ?

RikuoAmero · 23-03-2015 07:24AM

Cen Taurus, (or any christian, but I'm looking at Cen Taurus mainly here) any chance of you answering these questions?

If a Hindu walks up to you and says "Faith in my gods grants one eternal life" would you give any weight at all to what he's saying? Would you think that he is speaking truthfully?

Also, point out the strawmen, the fallacies etc in what I said before. It's one thing to accuse someone of those. It's another thing altogether to substantiate said claims (you have a reeeeallly bad problem with substantiation).

Peregrinus · 23-03-2015 07:34AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Cen Taurus, (or any christian, but I'm looking at Cen Taurus mainly here) any chance of you answering these questions?

If a Hindu walks up to you and says "Faith in my gods grants one eternal life" would you give any weight at all to what he's saying? Would you think that he is speaking truthfully?

I would doubt that he was speaking truthfully. This is not generally a Hindu belief. I'd want to ask him a bit more about how he, as a Hindu, came to believe this, and how he reconciles this belief with his identification as a Hindu.

TheLurker · 23-03-2015 08:23AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

A belief/non belief is not a claim, it is a belief/non belief.

You believe a claim or statement.

Jesus has made a claim about the true nature of reality. Christians believe that claim.

The question then becomes how does either Jesus justify that claim, and/or how do Christians justify the belief of that claim

You also have other Christians who will repeat the claim. They are not only repeating the claim but themselves making the claim (by repeating the original claim as a fact) that they believe it is true and should be believed by others.

Cen taurus wrote: »

If it were a claim then it would either be a fact or not a fact and therefore a false claim. It would not be a belief/non belief.

It is either a fact or not a fact.

Jesus either is or isn't "the way, and the truth, and the life"

People either come to the Father through him or they don't.

These are claims about the nature of reality. They are accurate or they are in accurate. They are no different to making a claim about the spin of an electron on the formation of a rock face.

The Bible is full to the brim with such claims. This is such an obvious statement I again am left wondering what they heck you are doing here, arguing for no other point than to argue.

Cen taurus wrote: »

Belief : "I believe alien life exists"
vs
Claim : "Alien life exists"

"Alien life exists" is a claim that you believe. If you repeat that claim as fact you are also making a claim (that the first claim is factual).

The FIRST question anyone will ask is how can you support that claim. If your answer is unscientific then your belief is anti-science, since science says you have no support for that belief yet you choose to believe anyway.

The Bible makes a large number of claims, that Christians believe. Many Christians also repeat these claims (including the original authors of the Bible) and others believe or don't believe these claims. Just look at the Catholic Church, they do nothing but make claims about sex, marriage, birth, morality etc

Again I'm not sure if you are genuinely having trouble with this very very simple concept or if this is more nonsense stalling for time. First you invent your own concept of the word "evidence" (rejecting any evidence for something other than physically seeing the thing itself) so we can waste a huge amount of time arguing that nonsense, and now you appear to be suggesting that there are no claims in Christianity, only "beliefs", as if those two things were mutually exclusive.

Again I'm asking wondering if there is anyone serious who wants to debate this stuff properly. Cause you seem anything but serious. Or maybe just way out of your league.

RikuoAmero · 23-03-2015 08:40AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I would doubt that he was speaking truthfully. This is not generally a Hindu belief. I'd want to ask him a bit more about how he, as a Hindu, came to believe this, and how he reconciles this belief with his identification as a Hindu.

Well then, just substitute Hindu for any other religion that does mention faith in that religion's gods being a positive attribute.

MaxWig · 23-03-2015 08:51AM

Not really, religion has left a lot of people with the idea that the rest of the natural world is here to serve humanity and that humans are something different from the rest of the animal kingdom. But science has shown us that we're just as susceptible to basic animal behaviour as any other animal.

That's the point. We are defecating, decaying, vicious, teeth and claws animals - just like the rest of them .

Birds use a sort of symbolism to attract mates, The bowerbird in australia that builds elaborate nests that have next to no practical value and is entirely an aesthetic symbol to attract females.

That is not symbolism. A shiny stone is a shiny stone. A pretty feather, a pretty feather.

Chimps, birds and dolphins have shown remarkable human like abilities of reasoning and complex thought. Dogs can read human faces just the same way humans read other human face's while they read other dogs in a completely different way. They've adapted to our way of facial communication.

Yes, but not sure of what you mean.

There isn't really anything humans do that's totally unique to humans. Our biggest advantage is our brains ability to predict the future in an intuitive way that doesn't rely completely on experience. But again, we've found birds have similar abilities. We just do it better.

Build planes, leave the planet's atmosphere/visit other celestial bodies, split the atom, invent gods and philosophies, sacrifice themselves for a 'cause', invent mathematics, live an entire life in the knowledge they will die and their works and acts will be meaningless, etc etc.

We've found that the human brain depends on high speed tricks rather than cold hard logic. We are a fantastic animal, but still an animal.

A rose by any other name

silverharp · 23-03-2015 08:52AM

Christianity refutes itself . cross it off the list and check out the others

for example

John 17

17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Since Jesus's followers are divided, and have always been divided, into a legion of conflicting sects, there's no reason to believe that his dad sent him , according to Jesus's own test.

Cen taurus · 23-03-2015 09:01AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Cen Taurus, (or any christian, but I'm looking at Cen Taurus mainly here) any chance of you answering these questions?

If a Hindu walks up to you and says "Faith in my gods grants one eternal life" would you give any weight at all to what he's saying? Would you think that he is speaking truthfully?

I've already answered that, but I know that you'll ignore that answer, and this one, so I'm happy to keep posting it for you.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die, and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Note he did not say the "insert whatever religion you want here" is the way, the truth the life.

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Also, point out the strawmen, the fallacies etc in what I said before. It's one thing to accuse someone of those. It's another thing altogether to substantiate said claims (you have a reeeeallly bad problem with substantiation).

I'm pointing them out in every post I make. Again, you're continually back to making it about the poster instead of the points, there's not much left when you have to resort to that. Theism / Christianity is either correct / incorrect regardless if I exist or not.

Cen taurus · 23-03-2015 09:05AM

TheLurker wrote: »

You believe a claim or statement.

Jesus has made a claim about the true nature of reality. Christians believe that claim.

The question then becomes how does either Jesus justify that claim, and/or how do Christians justify the belief of that claim

You also have other Christians who will repeat the claim. They are not only repeating the claim but themselves making the claim (by repeating the original claim as a fact) that they believe it is true and should be believed by others.

It is either a fact or not a fact.

Jesus either is or isn't "the way, and the truth, and the life"

People either come to the Father through him or they don't.

These are claims about the nature of reality. They are accurate or they are in accurate. They are no different to making a claim about the spin of an electron on the formation of a rock face.

The Bible is full to the brim with such claims. This is such an obvious statement I again am left wondering what they heck you are doing here, arguing for no other point than to argue.

"Alien life exists" is a claim that you believe. If you repeat that claim as fact you are also making a claim (that the first claim is factual).

The FIRST question anyone will ask is how can you support that claim. If your answer is unscientific then your belief is anti-science, since science says you have no support for that belief yet you choose to believe anyway.

The Bible makes a large number of claims, that Christians believe. Many Christians also repeat these claims (including the original authors of the Bible) and others believe or don't believe these claims. Just look at the Catholic Church, they do nothing but make claims about sex, marriage, birth, morality etc

Again I'm not sure if you are genuinely having trouble with this very very simple concept or if this is more nonsense stalling for time. First you invent your own concept of the word "evidence" (rejecting any evidence for something other than physically seeing the thing itself) so we can waste a huge amount of time arguing that nonsense, and now you appear to be suggesting that there are no claims in Christianity, only "beliefs", as if those two things were mutually exclusive.

Again I'm asking wondering if there is anyone serious who wants to debate this stuff properly. Cause you seem anything but serious. Or maybe just way out of your league.

Ok, I'll ignore the ad hominem again, and I'll start you off with a simple one :

Poster A : "I don't believe God exists"
- that's not a claim, it's a non belief.

Poster B : "God does not exist"
- that's not a non-belief, that's a claim.

TheLurker · 23-03-2015 09:10AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Ok, I'll ignore the ad hominem

For the love of Darwin's white beard please please please look up with the phrase "ad hominem" means, this is like the 12th time you have used it wrong :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Cen taurus wrote: »

again, and I'll start you off with a simple one :

Poster A : "I don't believe God exists"
- that's not a claim, it's a non belief.

Poster B : "God does not exist"
- that's not a belief, that's a claim.

Well technically "I don't believe God exists is a claim", since it is making a claim about the true nature of your beliefs. But we will be charitable because I understand what you mean even if you phrased it badly. Also it is irrelevant to the point because ...

ALL THE THINGS JESUS SAID ABOUT GOD WERE CLAIMS. And every time a Christian repeats what Jesus said as a fact they are also making a claim.

Christians then believe those claims.

Are you going to keep ignoring that point?

Delirium · 23-03-2015 09:10AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Ok, I'll ignore the ad hominem again, and I'll start you off with a simple one :

Poster A : "I don't believe God exists"
- that's not a claim, it's a non belief.

Poster B : "God does not exist"
- that's not a belief, that's a claim.

could you point out what exactly is an ad hominem in the post, as I've read it three times and still can't find it.

Cen taurus · 23-03-2015 09:20AM

TheLurker wrote: »

For the love of Darwin's white beard please please please look up with the phrase "ad hominem" means, this is like the 12th time you have used it wrong :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

I'll quote it for you : "Ad hominem means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments"

So lets get back to making about the points, instead of making it about me, yet again.

TheLurker wrote: »

Well technically "I don't believe God exists is a claim", since it is making a claim about the true nature of your beliefs.

Well every atheist I've ever met will deny it is a claim, and rightly so.
No if you're claiming it is a claim, then that's a bit of a game changer for atheism on this forum.

But we will be charitable because I understand what you mean even if you phrased it badly. Also it is irrelevant to the point because ...

TheLurker wrote: »

ALL THE THINGS JESUS SAID ABOUT GOD WERE CLAIMS. And every time a Christian repeats what Jesus said as a fact they are also making a claim.

Christians then believe those claims.

Are you going to keep ignoring that point?

Christ is in the position to know, we are not. Therefore I can choose to believe Christ, or not to believe Christ, it's very simple. That's why it's known as belief. I'm a believer, does not become I am a claimer.
I am a non believer, does not become I am a claimer. You can't have it both ways.

Cen taurus · 23-03-2015 09:26AM

SW wrote: »

could you point out what exactly is an ad hominem in the post, as I've read it three times and still can't find it.

Are posts not supposed to be reported using the report function, instead of asking in thread for them ?
Well I have reported it.
Well here's one simple example. There's many more in the thread.
(Which as you know have been reported)

TheLurker wrote: »

Again I'm asking wondering if there is anyone serious who wants to debate this stuff properly. Cause you seem anything but serious. Or maybe just way out of your league.

What I am or not, or what intellectual "league" I'm allegedly in, has nothing whatsoever to do with the points in the post. Either the poster is capable of addressing them without making it personal, and continually changing the goal posts, or they are not. God exists or does not exist, regardless of any individual.

Attack the post, never the poster. In other words, don't make it personal. If you wish to debate a topic or rebut a statement, insulting any boards.ie user will only get you in trouble. You are free to have a go a their argument. You are not free to have a go at them.

If you want to ban me, just get on with it, and go ahead and do it.

TheLurker · 23-03-2015 09:28AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

What I am or not, has nothing whatsoever to do with the points in the post.

Nor did I said it did. I addressed all your points. Then I pondered why you keep making such silly ones, wasting everyones time. It is not an ad hominem to merely criticise a poster.

Please please please read what an ad hominem is. Please.

TheLurker · 23-03-2015 09:38AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

I'll quote it for you : "Ad hominem means responding to arguments by attacking a person's character, rather than to the content of their arguments"

And I was not responding to your arguments by attacking you. Your arguments are easy enough to respond to on their own. I was attacking you after I responded to your arguments.

You on the other hand respond to attacks on your points by complaining about non-existent ad hominems.

Cen taurus wrote: »

So lets get back to making about the points, instead of making it about me, yet again.

You keep ignoring all rebuttals to your points!

Cen taurus wrote: »

Well every atheist I've ever met will deny it is a claim, and rightly so.

They will deny it is a claim about the existence of God. They won't deny it is a claim about their beliefs. Because it is.

"I do not believe in Santa Clause" is not a claim about how likely it is that Santa Clause exists, it is a claim about myself and my beliefs.

It is still a claim. Most things are claims. Why you have such a problem with that I've no idea.

Cen taurus wrote: »

No if you're claiming it is a claim, then that's a bit of a game changer for atheism on this forum.

Only if a person reading this forum doesn't understand anything about atheism ... or claims.... or how English works .... or basic reasoning ... :rolleyes:

Cen taurus wrote: »

But we will be charitable because I understand what you mean even if you phrased it badly.

I meant exactly what I said. And I'm pretty sure you didn't understand it. But moving on...

Cen taurus wrote: »

Christ is in the position to know, we are not.

That is a claim. Right there "Christ is in the position to know" is a claim by you about Christ. It is factually accurate or it is not. You didn't even bother to say "I believe Christ is in the position to know"

So why are you wasting everyones time pretending Christians do not regularly make claims about reality.

Cen taurus wrote: »

Therefore I can choose to believe Christ, or not to believe Christ, it's very simple.

Yes you can CHOOSE TO BELIEVE THE CLAIMS HE MAKES. Which is what I said 3 pages ago.

WHY ARE YOU WASTING EVERYONES TIME WITH THIS NONSENSE

Cen taurus wrote: »

That's why it's known as belief. I'm a believer, does not become I am a claimer.

You LITERALLY JUST CLAIMED that Christ is in a position to know.

If you MAKE A CLAIM YOU ARE CLAIMING SOMETHING.

This basic basic basic basic basic stuff.

RikuoAmero · 23-03-2015 09:41AM

I've already answered that, but I know that you'll ignore that answer, and this one, so I'm happy to keep posting it for you.

Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die, and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."

Jesus said "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Note he did not say the "insert whatever religion you want here" is the way, the truth the life.

Very well, this is your answer. Follow up question - how is this NOT special pleading on your part then? You're giving weight to faith but only when it's applied to a specific god. If anyone else tries to say it to you about their god, then you don't give it weight. Why not?
I remember when I originally asked you this, I listed what you would be implying whether you said yes or no - and yet here you are going with a NO answer anyway and not bothering to even try attempting to get yourself out of the special pleading hole you've dug yourself into.

I'm pointing them out in every post I make

No you didn't, at least not for that long post I did yesterday. You just said there were fallacies, ad homs etc, but didn't bother giving any details.

RikuoAmero · 23-03-2015 09:44AM

Christ is in the position to know, we are not. Therefore I can choose to believe Christ, or not to believe Christ, it's very simple. That's why it's known as belief. I'm a believer, does not become I am a claimer.
I am a non believer, does not become I am a claimer. You can't have it both ways.

This is putting the cart before the horse isn't it? You're on an existence of God thread, imbuing J C with all knowledge and not allowing for even a hypothetical scenario where he doesn't have that knowledge.
J C being in a position to know or not is one of the very foundational things being debated here on this thread! You can't just operate under the assumption that he most definitely is and expect those of us on the other side to also follow that assumption. You have to substantiate it, just like everything else (which you constantly refuse to do).
Also being a believer DOES mean you are making a claim. You have just made a claim about J C being in the position to know. You can't say "But but but that's a belief!" since that would mean circular logic on your part, along the lines of "using the bible to prove the bible".
I'm getting really sick and tired of you not once attempting to meet the burden of proof, and being gleeful in doing so.

TheLurker · 23-03-2015 09:51AM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

This is putting the cart before the horse isn't it? You're on an existence of God thread, imbuing J C with all knowledge and not allowing for even a hypothetical scenario where he doesn't have that knowledge.
J C being in a position to know or not is one of the very foundational things being debated here on this thread! You can't just operate under the assumption that he most definitely is and expect those of us on the other side to also follow that assumption. You have to substantiate it, just like everything else (which you constantly refuse to do).

That is a very good point.

The stumbling block here might be he doesn't even think of these things as claims, that might not actually be true and that need to be supported to believe them. Of course the Bible is true. Of course Jesus is the son of God. Of course what he says isn't a claim but a statement of truth.

If you have been indoctrinated into your religion so much you don't even stop to think "Why do I believe that claim" because you don't even think of it as a claim in the first place, but simply a repeated truth, simply the way things are, you might very well not have a clue what the rest of us are talking about when we say "the claims Christianity makes".

Delirium · 23-03-2015 10:02AM

Cen taurus wrote: »

Are posts not supposed to be reported using the report function, instead of asking in thread for them ?
Well I have reported it.
Well here's one simple example. There's many more in the thread.
(Which as you know have been reported)

I wasn't posting as a moderator, but as a regular user. You claimed someone had used an ad hominem in the post you quoted.

I asked could you cite where the ad hom. There could well be an ad hom in the post, but some of us can't see it. Not unreasonable to ask you to point it out.

Would you care to do so now?

Cen taurus · 23-03-2015 10:05AM

Can you deal with the posts I've clearly reported please. Why is this being dealt with in thread ?

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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