Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

Lusk_Doyle · 20-02-2015 09:37AM

J Madone wrote: »

Exactly Wav,
Gardai want 80 an hour afaik per officer. It amuses me, the guys who have the strongest opinions have probably never organised a race.
Im not talking about waving a flag.
Was on a committee for a few years that ran club and the biggest oneday race in Ireland.
The ammount of work involved barely justifies the end result. A lot of headaches for all.
The guys with the least success do the most shouting around here.

What is that supposed to mean?

Lusk_Doyle · 20-02-2015 09:39AM

Beasty wrote: »

Strenuous efforts have been made over recent years toi get the buy-in of the authorities. The Council have actually been very co-operative and made themselves available for a number of meetings involving the club and representatives of CI (and I have attanded one of those meetings). I am aware of one other club in the area that has had similar support when seeking meetings with the Council

Unfortunately getting Gardai attendance at such meetings has been a little more challenging although I think they did turn up to one. The message though has been consistent throughout. The Council will not support (club league) racing on their roads without the Gardai also supporting such racing. The Gardai have stated that such racing can only take place on closed roads and the Council have made it very clear they would seek to co-operate in getting road closures in place. I have though already alluded to the issues of getting full road closures on appropriate roads in the area. Trying to do so for a 20 week club league is very impractical

Let's also be clear on another thing. The Gardai have been in attendance at a number of open races in the area over the past couple of years. Unfortunately the racing they have witnessed in those races has certainly coloured their views on road racing and resulted in them essentially pulling down the shutters on any racing on open roads within Fingal. They see a race as a race whether there are 30 or 130 participants (and again it is not that long ago that the club league was seeing field approaching 100)

So, this is the nub of the problem. It's getting the Gardai to understand the other point of view that is the difficulty.

Beasty · 20-02-2015 09:58AM

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

So, this is the nub of the problem. It's getting the Gardai to understand the other point of view that is the difficulty.

Within County Fingal, yes. That has been the root of the problem throughout. They believe their position is sound - if we seriously attempt to challenge that it risks alienating them, and potentially spreading the issue country-wide. As I have already alluded to it is very easy for them to stop any race they have not "approved" simply by waiting at a corner and witnessing riders failing to observe a "stop" sign (or a yield sign, or riding 3 abreast etc)

Lusk_Doyle · 20-02-2015 10:06AM

Beasty wrote: »

Within County Fingal, yes. That has been the root of the problem throughout. They believe their position is sound - if we seriously attempt to challenge that it risks alienating them, and potentially spreading the issue country-wide. As I have already alluded to it is very easy for them to stop any race they have not "approved" simply by waiting at a corner and witnessing riders failing to observe a "stop" sign (or a yield sign, or riding 3 abreast etc)

Yea, I get that. I just find it incredible that they have taken an obtuse view of the situation. Especially with so many of their ranks being cyclists, and racing cyclists at that too.

The sheer unwillingness to look at it from a different angle is baffling.

Beasty · 20-02-2015 12:10PM

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Yea, I get that. I just find it incredible that they have taken an obtuse view of the situation. Especially with so many of their ranks being cyclists, and racing cyclists at that too.

The Garda Cycling club was actually invited into the club league one year, but that cut no mustard with the powers that be and I'm pretty sure we didn't get any races at all that year

mcgratheoin · 20-02-2015 12:37PM

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

Yea, I get that. I just find it incredible that they have taken an obtuse view of the situation. Especially with so many of their ranks being cyclists, and racing cyclists at that too.

At what level of AGS are these decisions taken? Is it one specific officer who decides on the policy for each specific division or region? Just to clarify btw - what is the AGS position in other divisions, is it that the AGS in Dublin are unique in refusing to support racing on open roads or is it that Fingal CoCo are unique in requiring explicit AGS support before sanctioning such events?

Beasty · 20-02-2015 01:10PM

AFAIK it is someone quite senior in the local area. A decision has been made that extends across the county. I understand that individual may have tried to escalate it within AGS and we were informed a couple of years ago that national guidance may be forthcoming but that never materialised. I have also heard one or two murmurings that other districts are starting to look more closely at road racing, particularly on the back of complaints received

All clubs are required to notify the local council and AGS of their intention to race (open, Club league, TTs - in fact any road event organised under the auspices of CI). I am not certain that all clubs do that, but in many cases I suspect those notifications that are made are often filed without further scrutiny. It may be that simply having this discussion here raises the profile of the whole topic. It may even result in further complaints being made. Equally it may be that those notifications do start to be scrutinised a little more closely, as the same thing could happen in any district if someone senior enough decides to take that approach (or gets transferred from his current patch in Co Fingal!)

Hi Ho · 20-02-2015 08:18PM

[QUOTE=dermabrasion;94326518... My point is this: racing is a privilege, not a right..[/QUOTE]

But why shouldn't it be a right? The roads were there long before motorists. Our racing might discomode motorists for a minute or two in the whole year, but it isn't 'their' road - why can't 'we' have priority, even for a very short time every year. By your attitude we are conceding entitelement. This tension is playing out very much in cities and cyclists are very slowly re-gaining equality. It's no longer assumed that motorists have a greater 'right'.

NeedMoreGears · 21-02-2015 09:08AM

I disagree with the above. Racing, whether it's running, cycling or motor vehicles, is not a right.

In fact for many, motorists, access to the road is specifically restricted until they are accorded permission to use the road via the licensing system. They have no right to the road either only permission if sufficiently competent.

Racing has nothing to do with who "owns" the road. Singling out motorists as the only people who are inconvenienced ignores pedestrians, other cyclists, and in the case of closed road events, those who cannot move about as freely as they would otherwise.

the increasingly equality seen in cities relates almost in its entirety to cyclist as a means of transport not racing.

Personally I'm all for racing, sportifs etc but we have to recognise that like almost everyone else we don't have a right to it. We need to convince people that we can do it safely and with reasonably minimised inconvenience to others

cython · 21-02-2015 09:27AM

Hi Ho wrote: »

But why shouldn't it be a right? The roads were there long before motorists. Our racing might discomode motorists for a minute or two in the whole year, but it isn't 'their' road - why can't 'we' have priority, even for a very short time every year. By your attitude we are conceding entitelement. This tension is playing out very much in cities and cyclists are very slowly re-gaining equality. It's no longer assumed that motorists have a greater 'right'.

The roads may indeed predate motorists, but they were and continue to be there for transport first and foremost, and anything else like racing is secondary. Like it or not, motorists and all other road users getting from A-B are using the roads for that intended primary purpose, while racing (cycle or otherwise) is not. And even that primary use, depending on the mode, is regarded as a privilege rather than a right (driver licensing, etc.), and a privilege which can be rescinded for flouting the laws and/or endangering other users. Hence a secondary usage like racing must also be regarded as a privilege, and be subject to similar responsibilities.

Pablo Rubio · 04-03-2015 09:31PM

Balbriggan is off. Oliver McKenna made that announcement on the start line of the Traders Cup in Dundalk 2 weeks ago.

bcmf · 04-03-2015 09:57PM

Pablo Rubio wrote: »

Balbriggan is off. Oliver McKenna made that announcement on the start line of the Traders Cup in Dundalk 2 weeks ago.

Ah fook!
The whole Balbriggan weekend or just Harry Reynolds?

greenmat · 04-03-2015 10:32PM

Pablo Rubio wrote: »

Balbriggan is off. Oliver McKenna made that announcement on the start line of the Traders Cup in Dundalk 2 weeks ago.

Fingal Strike Again. That's really bad news.

Farloo · 04-03-2015 10:42PM

What's dates were those races supposed to be on? Cant remember if they are the ones I planned to do?!

Harrybelafonte · 04-03-2015 10:50PM

Last weekend in March? I was gonna miss them this year anyway, but real shame as I really enjoyed last year.

Harrybelafonte · 04-03-2015 11:27PM

Not a good sign either I might add.

Beasty · 04-03-2015 11:39PM

bcmf wrote: »

Ah fook!
The whole Balbriggan weekend or just Harry Reynolds?

As I understand it the whole weekend - they needed fully closed roads for each race and I think they never progressed on that front

Beasty · 04-03-2015 11:41PM

Harrybelafonte wrote: »

I really enjoyed last year.

Even I showed my face last year - not a pretty sight I might add:pac:

buffalo · 05-03-2015 08:22AM

Beasty wrote: »

Even I showed my face last year - not a pretty sight I might add:pac:

What happened?

Lusk_Doyle · 05-03-2015 09:41AM

buffalo wrote: »

What happened?

They called off the race.

wav1 · 05-03-2015 04:55PM

Interesting news appeared on twitter over the past few hrs.Appears positive outcome from meeting earlier between Garda,Fingal Co Co,and Cycling Ireland?Says they will allow 2 races this year..Dont know if they are allowing proposed existing events or whats the story,but at least its the first bit of good news in that regard in some time...Every little helps.

Beasty · 05-03-2015 05:20PM

.... to be run by McNally Swords CC

Great news, except for anyone who now has to sort out the organisation, and put their head on the block if anything doesn't go to plan

Sh!!!!!!t

:pac:

wav1 · 05-03-2015 05:25PM

Beasty wrote: »

.... to be run by McNally Swords CC

Great news, except for anyone who now has to sort out the organisation, and put their head on the block if anything doesn't go to plan

Sh!!!!!!t

:pac:

If its to move things on and back to where they should be,i don't think helpers will be a problem[similar to junior tour sportive]put me down.

Beasty · 05-03-2015 05:32PM

wav1 wrote: »

If its to move things on and back to where they should be,i don't think helpers will be a problem[similar to junior tour sportive]put me down.

Thanks for that. We managed to get a lot of support out for the CX nationals, but these events are going to be absolutely critical to road racing going forward, certainly in Fingal, and possibly extending across the country. No pressure then!!

wav1 · 05-03-2015 05:38PM

Beasty wrote: »

Thanks for that. We managed to get a lot of support out for the CX nationals, but these events are going to be absolutely critical to road racing going forward, certainly in Fingal, and possibly extending across the country. No pressure then!!

Open R/R events or limited club events to get the ball rolling?

Beasty · 05-03-2015 05:41PM

wav1 wrote: »

Open R/R events or limited club events to get the ball rolling?

Just seen the comments on Twitter - just says 2 races on open roads so it could well be club races, which would be a lot easier as we know numbers will be limited and we will be able to ensure everyone is absolutely bought in to the importance of the events.

EDIT: The more I think about it the more I suspect it will be Club league races which are a much better "test environment" in terms of getting both the Gardai and Council to understand what road races entail

Lusk_Doyle · 05-03-2015 06:33PM

Beasty wrote: »

.... to be run by McNally Swords CC

Great news, except for anyone who now has to sort out the organisation, and put their head on the block if anything doesn't go to plan

Sh!!!!!!t

:pac:

Well done all.

greenmat · 05-03-2015 06:55PM

Great bit of news, over the last 2-3 years the club has slowly and quietly made progress on this issue. Whatever is agreed is a step in the right direction. We had a great Club League last year and this year promises to be better again. Roll on the bright nights.

07Lapierre · 05-03-2015 08:18PM

My understanding is we're talking about club league races. More info will be sent to me so we'll just have to wait and see what was agreed and what conditions will have to be adhered to. Still, it's a very promising development.

bcmf · 05-03-2015 08:27PM

Great to hear.
If you need any help the helpful crew in VCB will be glad to lend a hand!

Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

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