Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 08:36PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Firstly, you can't prove a negative. Also, you're thinking of nontheists. Atheists just don't believe any gods exist, as the vast majority of us haven't found any compelling evidence for them - just as any competent juror wouldn't believe someone is guilty without sufficient evidence.

How about you use my phrase - are not convinced? It hits home to the exact reason why we don't believe.

marienbad · 02-03-2015 08:42PM

Gunney wrote: »

I guess what you have proven is that there is no balance to this story and no one really knows the truth.

Enough of the truth is readily available to anyone who cares to do even a cursory bit of research .

What was done was wrong ,you are just arguing over how wrong . But the fact (as far as I am aware) we still can't get a look a the Laundry records and accounts, and the fact that for institutions that 'never made a profit' are sitting on assets of over one billion euro should tell you something.

They could teach the likes of Apple and the other corporations a trick or two about masking profits .

katydid · 02-03-2015 08:47PM

marienbad wrote: »

Enough of the truth is readily available to anyone who cares to do even a cursory bit of research .

What was done was wrong ,you are just arguing over how wrong . But the fact (as far as I am aware) we still can't get a look a the Laundry records and accounts, and the fact that for institutions that 'never made a profit' are sitting on assets of over one billion euro should tell you something.

They could teach the likes of Apple and the other corporations a trick or two about masking profits .

Still waiting for you to educate me...

Father Ted Crilly · 02-03-2015 08:51PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

So let's hear your evidence then. I've got nothing else to do for the evening.

Well it's not exactly evidence but...

Anyway, one claim is that things don't just happen, something has to make them happen. Religious people argue that the universe must have been created by an intelligent mind - God.
Another claim is that there is evidence of design in the universe. I won't go on to explain.
Another claim is that humans were created uniquely by God. That God gave us our special conscience that is different from animals.

This is my own argument.
How can you possibly believe that all of this created itself? Are you saying this all happened by random chance? Science has shown that our brains (and the brains of other animals) are coded to do whatever. Things can't code themselves. They must have been coded by an intelligent mind. God. The same goes for the universe. I remember reading somewhere that if the location or something of this planet was the slightest bit different, life would not be possible.

marienbad · 02-03-2015 08:51PM

katydid wrote: »

Still waiting for you to educate me...

Try reading the thread instead of dipping in and out ....

katydid · 02-03-2015 09:06PM

marienbad wrote: »

Try reading the thread instead of dipping in and out ....

I have been. No sign of what I asked you.

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 09:08PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Well it's not exactly evidence but...

This is already a bad place to begin when talking to atheists.

Anyway, one claim is that things don't just happen, something has to make them happen. Religious people argue that the universe must have been created by an intelligent mind - God.

1) Just because things within the universe need a cause doesn't automatically mean that the universe itself as a whole needs a cause. This is a classic case of misidentifying properties of members of a set for the properties of the set itself.
2) Even if there is a cause, why does it have to be an intelligent mind, and further, why does that intelligent mind have to be the christian god?

Another claim is that there is evidence of design in the universe. I won't go on to explain.

This is easily refuted. You need something non-designed in order to compare and contrast something that is designed to. If the entire universe and everything in it is designed, you lack that ability, and hence, cannot with any credibility make the judgement that the universe is designed.
Also...designed for what? Clearly not for us humans, considering that the vast majority of the planet Earth alone (to say nothing of the rest of the universe) is hostile to human life.

Another claim is that humans were created uniquely by God. That God gave us our special conscience that is different from animals.

As you say, this is a claim. That is not evidence, not anything at all that supports the claim of a god.
This is my own argument.

How can you possibly believe that all of this created itself? Are you saying this all happened by random chance? Science has shown that our brains (and the brains of other animals) are coded to do whatever. Things can't code themselves. They must have been coded by an intelligent mind. God. The same goes for the universe. I remember reading somewhere that if the location or something of this planet was the slightest bit different, life would not be possible.

The classic "look at the trees and wonder of creation" argument. I've debunked this in the past and I'll debunk it again here. For one, explain your last line. Do you mean the orbit of the planet? That's what I frequently hear from people like yourself. Newsflash to you - the distance from the Earth to the Sun shifts on the order of a few million kilometres during the year. The Earth's orbit isn't circular, it's elliptical, thus it changes from further to closer to the sun. As for "things can't code themselves"...look at bacteria and how they change their own DNA to become resistant to our antibiotics. Either they're doing that themselves...or maybe it's your god deliberately trying to stop us from curing disease? As for life being possible...go back to wherever you heard that and ask them how exactly they calculated the probability of life forming. So far, we have just the one planet with life on it to examine, so it's impossible at the moment, to make any accurate determinations of probability. Wherever you heard that from were making it up.
Oh and no...for your information, I don't say it's random chance.

If you want to try seriously, go ahead. Otherwise, don't waste our time with these same tired arguments that we've refuted hundreds of times before.
Two free tips - don't start off by saying "It's not evidence" and actually research your stuff to make it look like you know what you're talking about. Saying "I remember reading somewhere that if the location or something of this planet" makes you look like you're clueless.

marienbad · 02-03-2015 09:13PM

katydid wrote: »

Still waiting for you to educate me...

Then reread post no 767 again , it is not my job to debunk your bizarre claims and educate you, and there are now enough links in the thread to save you even a Google search .

J C · 02-03-2015 09:17PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

What is a thread like this going to prove? Atheists have no evidence to support their claims about God not existing. Us religious people have evidence that suggests there is a God.

What boggles my mind is why Atheists are so sure there is no God. Why do they have these reasons?

They are people of very great faith indeed ... that's why.
The irony here is that the evidence is all on the side of God exisiting ... while Atheists believe that He doesn't exist by faith alone!!!

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 09:26PM

J C wrote: »

They are people of very great faith indeed ... that's why.
The irony here is that the evidence is all on the side of God exisiting ... while Atheists believe that He doesn't exist by faith alone!!!:D

Did you read his post? He started off by saying he didn't have evidence...the very thing he's attacking us for! Read my response -if as you say we believed in no god by faith alone, my response wouldn't exist. I wouldn't have all his arguments debunked.

katydid · 02-03-2015 09:29PM

marienbad wrote: »

Then reread post no 767 again , it is not my job to debunk your bizarre claims and educate you, and there are now enough links in the thread to save you even a Google search .

I read that posts and all the other posts.

It's obvious you you don't understand the point I made, and have gone in a totally different direction.

J C · 02-03-2015 09:31PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Did you read his post? He started off by saying he didn't have evidence...the very thing he's attacking us for! Read my response -if as you say we believed in no god by faith alone, my response wouldn't exist. I wouldn't have all his arguments debunked.

I admire your great faith ... but your ideas don't float my boat!!!

Father Ted Crilly · 02-03-2015 09:37PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

Rage; Rant.

All I'm saying is that we have something to go on. You on the other hand "don't need God". You don't care either. But for some unknown reason, you go about your time arguing with religious people trying your best to disprove the existence of God.

Explain the miracles, explain Jesus. Christian and non-Christian sources (the Romans for example) say that there was a miracle performing man called Jesus of Nazerath.

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 09:44PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

All I'm saying is that we have something to go on.

No we don't. You admitted at the start you had no evidence and proceed to give me things I've debunked time and time again. I didn't even have to think hard about my response.

You on the other hand "don't need God".

Care to quote me on that?

You don't care either.

Yet here I am.

But for some unknown reason, you go about your time arguing with religious people trying your best to disprove the existence of God.

In case you missed me saying it before, not only do I try my best to disprove arguments from religious people, I do it as a dare, trying to get people such as yourself to give me something new that might, just might, convince me.

Explain the miracles,

Which ones? The ones supposedly done by your chosen religious messiah, and not any of the others done by anyone else from any other religion?

explain Jesus

.
At best, a popular and charismatic preacher who gathered some followers, fell afoul of the authorities and got himself executed. He wasn't the only one. The Roman Empire at the time had saviours, messiahs and resurrected heroes galore.

Christian and non-Christian sources (the Romans for example) say that there was a miracle performing man called Jesus of Nazerath.

[/QUOTE]
If you say that your Roman source is Josephus, let me inform you that the earliest documents we have for Josephus date to a few centuries after the fact. Also, just because it's mentioned in an old document somehow makes the claim of miracles true? So what about the stories of miracles in Egyptian documents for example? Did they happen? Is your required level of evidence consistent across the board?

marienbad · 02-03-2015 09:46PM

katydid wrote: »

I read that posts and all the other posts.

It's obvious you you don't understand the point I made, and have gone in a totally different direction.

''Yes, I made the claim that in some cases the nuns were envious of the women.'' This is the claim you made -correct ?

What is there to misunderstand ? It is just a bizarre statement . Do you have any sources to give ? Anything ?

Do you know what went on in these places ?

Father Ted Crilly · 02-03-2015 09:47PM

RikuoAmero wrote: »

More Rage; More Rant.

Give me your evidence. Prove God is a lie.

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 09:48PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Give me your evidence. Prove God is a lie.

Burden of proof lies on you, as the guy who makes the positive claim that your god exists. I will not budge from this.
Besides, why do you care about evidence? Your first post here said you had some then your second started off with you admitting you had none but you continued to make debunked claim after debunked claim anyway. This leads me to suspect you have no respect for evidence at all.

PopePalpatine · 02-03-2015 09:48PM

Prove the invisible, intangible unicorn orbiting Mars is a lie. I think you'll find it difficult.

Aenaes · 02-03-2015 09:49PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Prove the invisible, intangible unicorn orbiting Mars is a lie. I think you'll find it difficult.

Hey, respect my unicorn!

orubiru · 02-03-2015 09:55PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

All I'm saying is that we have something to go on. You on the other hand "don't need God". You don't care either. But for some unknown reason, you go about your time arguing with religious people trying your best to disprove the existence of God.

Explain the miracles, explain Jesus. Christian and non-Christian sources (the Romans for example) say that there was a miracle performing man called Jesus of Nazerath.

I don't think anyone is trying to "disprove" the existence of God. How could that even be done? There are lots of different Gods.

So, say I believed in the Christian God but then it was proven that Zeus exists. I would just say "Ah but Zeus was created by Christian God and even Zeus himself can't disprove that".

It is impossible to disprove the existence of God. Nobody is trying to do this.

Even proof of Evolution or the Big Bang or the age of the Universe would not disprove God.

Also maybe some of us find the conversation interesting.

I used to believe that Jesus was real then I actually opened my mind and studied a bit. If you can provide citations proving that Jesus existed then I will be happy to read them and make my own judgement. For now, history and common sense points to no Jesus.

Father Ted Crilly · 02-03-2015 10:00PM

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Prove the invisible, intangible unicorn orbiting Mars is a lie. I think you'll find it difficult.

This.

Anyway, as long as those Hindus aren't right about reincarnation... If I found out that I would continue to reincarnate forever and ever and ever and ever and ever.... and to know that all my emotions, dreams, achievements, love for others and all those years of living were all for nothing and would just be crushed and turned into a boring and probably miserable life, I'd go crazy.

I wouldn't mind spending eternity in Heaven. Though I might turn psycho after a few thousand years...

Father Ted Crilly · 02-03-2015 10:04PM

orubiru wrote: »

For now, history and common sense points to no Jesus.

History is a lie created by the Atheists.
Also, how does common sense point to "no Jesus"? When Jesus recalls you saying that on Judgement Day, he'll be pointing to Hell for you.

Although I do find the Christian God the most cruel being possible.
If Satan comes here for 1000 years and does whatever he wants to us, that will never equate to being tortured in Hell for all eternity.

bpmurray · 02-03-2015 10:08PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

All I'm saying is that we have something to go on. You on the other hand "don't need God". You don't care either. But for some unknown reason, you go about your time arguing with religious people trying your best to disprove the existence of God.

Explain the miracles, explain Jesus. Christian and non-Christian sources (the Romans for example) say that there was a miracle performing man called Jesus of Nazerath.

There is no way to prove that God doesn't exist: the onus is on believers to prove that he does. As Carl Sagan said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

And actually the usually anal Romans did NOT report on Jesus or any miracle-doer in Nazerath. It is the very absence of these reports that raises the question of Jesus ever existing, particularly since the earliest references are from around 150 years after his alleged death.

orubiru · 02-03-2015 10:09PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

Give me your evidence. Prove God is a lie.

Give me your evidence and I will decide for myself if I believe your proposition is true.

Why would you honestly think you can come out saying "I believe that X exists" and when we won't accept that (because you can't prove it) you can just turn round and say "well you can't disprove it"? You think that this is somehow acceptable to intelligent people?

It's very immature. I imagine a child in the playground telling his friends that his great uncle Doc Brown showed up in a car that could go back in time and they had all these adventures. All the other kids say "haha don't be silly" but, undeterred, our storyteller retorts with "well YOU weren't there!"

The burden of proof is on you I'm afraid and so far you are falling way short.

J C · 02-03-2015 10:10PM

Aenaes wrote: »

Hey, respect my unicorn!

I'll respect your Unicorn .. if you respect my Transcendent Omnipotent God.:)

katydid · 02-03-2015 10:10PM

bpmurray wrote: »

There is no way to prove that God doesn't exist: the onus is on believers to prove that he does. As Carl Sagan said "Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".

And actually the usually anal Romans did NOT report on Jesus or any miracle-doer in Nazerath. It is the very absence of these reports that raises the question of Jesus ever existing, particularly since the earliest references are from around 150 years after his alleged death.

There's no onus on anyone to prove anything, since there is no possibility to prove it one way or the other.

The gospels were written thirty to forty years after the time of Jesus.

orubiru · 02-03-2015 10:16PM

Father Ted Crilly wrote: »

History is a lie created by the Atheists.
Also, how does common sense point to "no Jesus"? When Jesus recalls you saying that on Judgement Day, he'll be pointing to Hell for you.

Although I do find the Christian God the most cruel being possible.
If Satan comes here for 1000 years and does whatever he wants to us, that will never equate to being tortured in Hell for all eternity.

Haha.

If there is ever a Judgement Day then they'll have to turn it into Judgement Week so that God and Jesus have time to answer "and just what EXACTLY were you thinking?"

I'm guess that J C would tell me that it's not our place to question God or something like that.

Is there any religion out there that thinks God is answerable for the things that go on in the world?

J C · 02-03-2015 10:24PM

katydid wrote: »

There's no onus on anyone to prove anything, since there is no possibility to prove it one way or the other.

The gospels were written thirty to forty years after the time of Jesus.

There is more evidence that Jesus Christ existed than any other person who lived at that time.

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

J C · 02-03-2015 10:29PM

orubiru wrote: »

Haha.

If there is ever a Judgement Day then they'll have to turn it into Judgement Week so that God and Jesus have time to answer "and just what EXACTLY were you thinking?"

I'm guess that J C would tell me that it's not our place to question God or something like that.

Is there any religion out there that thinks God is answerable for the things that go on in the world?

God will tell us all exactly what He was thinking ... as He judges those who don't want to be Saved and rewards those who want to be Saved at the end of time.

RikuoAmero · 02-03-2015 10:29PM

J C wrote: »

There is more evidence that Jesus Christ existed than any other person who lived at that time.

http://www.gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

This tells me all I need to know about how credible that site is

Section 1: The Bible
We believe the Bible, comprised of the Old and New Testaments, to be the inspired, infallible, and authoritative Word of God (Matthew 5:18; 2 Timothy 3:16-17). In faith we hold the Bible to be inerrant in the original writings, God-breathed, and the complete and final authority for faith and practice (2 Timothy 3:16-17). While still using the individual writing styles of the human authors, the Holy Spirit perfectly guided them to ensure they wrote precisely what He wanted written, without error or omission (2 Peter 1:21).

Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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