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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #692
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    Same old same old ... take responsibility for nothing and credit for everything.

    Inquisition,witches,Cathars,Crusades,Galileo ,Tyndale,Magdalene Laundries,Child Abuse and on and on , somebody else did it .

    Dante,Michelangelo,Da Vinci,Bernini , Johannes Passion, K626,Irish Education all because we did it.

    Irish education of course is the classic example , all the good was the institution and all the bad was the individual , Jesuits rule ok.
    Lke I have said ...
    ... that was then ... and this is now ... you need to get with the programme (of tolerance and freedom of religion in all modern states)!!!


  • #693
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    J C wrote: »
    ... as for the slavery itself, you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.
    First of all the romans were anything but secular. Just about everything in their society was controlled by their religion, the whole reason they fell out with the Christians is because the Christians wouldn't respect Roman religious values. Romans would allow Christians to be as Christian as they wanted to be as long as they paid their respects to Roman gods too. Romans believed that their gods directly influenced everything that happened in their society and that the Christians would tear everything down by not giving sacrifices. So really it was Christian intolerance of other gods that upset the Romans.

    Second of all Romans didn't invent slavery, everyone kept slaves at the time, it was just how societies worked. So you can't blame the Romans, if they never appeared in Judah there would still be slavery and it would still be in the bible.


  • #694
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    Lke I have said ...
    ... that was then ... and this is now ... you need to get with the programme (of tolerance and freedom of religion in all modern states)!!!

    Irish education is now . and if you don't learn from the sins of the past you will just repeat them .


  • #695
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    Irish education is now . and if you don't learn from the sins of the past you will just repeat them .
    What sins would they be (of relevance to modern schools with a Christian ethos)?


  • #696
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    What sins would they be (of relevance to modern schools with a Christian ethos)?

    For starters Irish schools should cater for everyone based on merit and not on religion.

    Employment in schools should be based on merit and not on the ethos of a particular religion .

    If you take taxpayers money cater for all and not just your own .


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  • #697
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    ScumLord wrote: »
    First of all the romans were anything but secular. Just about everything in their society was controlled by their religion, the whole reason they fell out with the Christians is because the Christians wouldn't respect Roman religious values. Romans would allow Christians to be as Christian as they wanted to be as long as they paid their respects to Roman gods too. Romans believed that their gods directly influenced everything that happened in their society and that the Christians would tear everything down by not giving sacrifices. So really it was Christian intolerance of other gods that upset the Romans.
    ... and the Emperors proclaimed themselves to be living gods ... which, as the deification of self, is the ultimate extreme of secularism and the cult of man over God.
    ScumLord wrote: »
    Second of all Romans didn't invent slavery, everyone kept slaves at the time, it was just how societies worked. So you can't blame the Romans,
    I see, you can't blame the Romans for continuing to protect slavery with their laws ... but you can blame Christians for not breaking out in rebellion ... when they were under very severe persecution already, from the very same Roman Authorities ... who were looking for any excuse to kill them.

    ... a bit like blaming a slave for being a slave .. and not rebelling against their enslavement!!!


  • #698
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    For starters Irish schools should cater for everyone based on merit and not on religion.

    Employment in schools should be based on merit and not on the ethos of a particular religion .

    If you take taxpayers money cater for all and not just your own .
    If a school has a particular ethos then it is quite entitled to maintain that ethos.

    Schools are legally in loco parentis and as parents, we can choose the school that nearest reflects our worldview. Just like every other choice, we are never going to get everything we want ... so we have to be content with getting as near as possible to what we want.

    Some of my children have gone to secular schools and some to a school with a religious ethos ... and I have been happy that their faith has been respected in both types of school.

    It would be quite unreasonable, if I'm the only Creationist (or indeed Atheist) in the village, to expect the local school to turn itself inside out to accommdate me and my children. What is to be expected, is that they will respect my faith (or lack of it) and that of my children.

    ... and that is what happens, in my experience.


  • #699
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    If a school has a particular ethos then it is quite entitled to maintain that ethos.

    Schools are legally in loco parentis and as parents, we can choose the school that nearest reflects our worldview. Just like every other choice, we are never going to get everything we want ... so we have to be content with getting as near as possible to what we want.

    Some of my children have gone to secular schools and some to a school with a religious ethos ... and I have been happy that their faith has been respected in both types of school.

    It would be quite unreasonable, if I'm the only Creationist (or indeed Atheist) in the village, to expect the local school to turn itself inside out to accommdate me and my children. What is to be expected, is that they will respect my faith (or lack of it) and that of my children.

    ... and that is what happens, in my experience.

    Easy for you to say when you are the majority ethos. If you want to teach religion do it on your own euro. It is no different that the tithes paid to the established church in the 1800's . Then it was a minority taxing a majority unfairly, now it is a majority taxing a minority unfairly. But it is the same principle - we still have an Established Church.


  • #700
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    Easy for you to say when you are the majority ethos. If you want to teach religion do it on your own euro. It is no different that the tithes paid to the established church in the 1800's . Then it was a minority taxing a majority unfairly, now it is a majority taxing a minority unfairly. But it is the same principle - we still have an Established Church.
    I'm a Creationist ... and therefore in a minority ... and I'm taxed to pay for both secular and religious ethos schools of all denominations.

    Like I have said, I don't expect a school to start teaching Creationism, just because my children go there ... and it's equally unreasonable for anybody of any other minority belief, to expect that a school will turn itself inside out to accommodate their beliefs.
    What I do expect, is that they will respect my faith (or lack of it) and that of my children.

    ... and that is what happens, in my experience.


  • #701
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    Was it the RCC burning witches then ?

    In Ireland? Not that I know of.


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  • #702
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    If a school has a particular ethos then it is quite entitled to maintain that ethos.

    Schools are legally in loco parentis and as parents, we can choose the school that nearest reflects our worldview.

    .

    No, we can't. Not if we're not RC and live in most parts of the Republic


  • #703
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    looksee wrote: »
    So what is the RC religion then? Is it the buildings, is it the Pope, what is it? I thought the church was the people, and the religion was what they believed. If people act in the name of the religion, and the hierarchy (who speak on behalf of the people/god) colludes in this, then who else is responsible?

    It IS the people. The people as a whole didn't do the abusing.


  • #704
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    This is a tough distinction to make, like Islam is used to justify the actions of ISIS, Catholicism was used to justify the abuses carried out at the time.
    While it's comforting to tell ourselves it's an abuse of the religion, the problem is the religion can be used in this way.
    The fact is it is Islam chopping heads off and kidnapping school girls, it was the RCC doing the abusing, in the case of laundries, it was the actual organizationorganization that set up and ran them.


    You would think God would make his instructions a little clearer so this kind of thing couldn't happen!
    I don't see how it's a tough distinction. It is, as you said, the fact that religion was used as an excuse. Roman Catholicism, or Christianity in general, doesn't condone or encourage child abuse any more than Islam condones what Isis does. So no, it is not Islam doing the decapitation and it wasn't the RCC doing the child abuse.


  • #705
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    No, we can't. Not if we're not RC and live in most parts of the Republic
    I said that we can choose schools that nearest reflect our worldview.
    If we are in a minority, like me, then 'nearest' can be somewhat 'far' ... but respect for my faith and that of my children is something that can be given in all schools.

    Anyway, I'm looking at Ireland 'stuffing' England in the rugby ... it's 19-6 and all they need to do is 'lock it down' for the next 15 minutes and the game is theirs!!!
    I'll return to the boards shortly !!!:):eek:


  • #706
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    I said that we can choose schools that nearest reflect our worldview.
    If we are in a minority, like me, then 'nearest' can be somewhat 'far' ... but respect for my faith and that of my children is something that can be given in all schools.

    Anyway, I'm looking at Ireland 'stuffing' England in the rugby ... it's 19-6 and all they need to do is 'lock it down' for the next 15 minutes and the game is theirs!!!
    I'll return to the boards shortly !!!:):eek:

    There would be no need for "nearest" in a secular school. I don't want respect for my difference in my child's school, I want all religions to be respected equally as something external to school community.
    Religious doctrine and beliefs can be transmitted through the religious institution the child and its family adhere to.

    Nineteen NINE now. Worrying..


  • #707
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,787 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    J C wrote: »
    ... and the Emperors proclaimed themselves to be living gods ... which, as the deification of self, is the ultimate extreme of secularism and the cult of man over God.
    Some emperors declared themselves to be a god and the direct descendants of gods. Romans worshipped their ancestors so there could be a direct line between a living emperor and a dead ancestor that had been elevated to the position of god. It's not the same as Jesus declaring he is the one and only god, they're just saying they're one of the gods, or as good as a god based on what they've achieved. It's more like the saint worship you get in Christianity.
    I see, you can't blame the Romans for continuing to protect slavery with their laws ...
    But Romans didn't come up with the concept of protecting slavery with their laws either, everybody was at it. The jews saw fit to put that protection into their religion by putting references in the bible.
    but you can blame Christians for not breaking out in rebellion ... when they were under very severe persecution already, from the very same Roman Authorities ... who were looking for any excuse to kill them.
    This is a myth, actual Romans records show the Romans tried everything to avoid killing Christians, they put it on record that Christians where lining up for martyrdom and they knew full well that killing them was playing into the Christian propaganda mission. But the fact is Christians were breaking Roman law, Christians brought the issue to a head with their intolerant religion that wouldn't budge on it's ideals.


  • #708
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    In Ireland? Not that I know of.

    Always moving the goalposts eh ! When it was pointed out to you the dark ages were not really that dark you narrow it down to just Western Europe and now we are discussing witches you narrow it down to just Ireland .

    But even so we did have a few , so now you will focus on how humane we were compared to others ?

    https://sites.google.com/site/supernaturaleire/irish-witch-trials


  • #709
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    Always moving the goalposts eh ! When it was pointed out to you the dark ages were not really that dark you narrow it down to just Western Europe and now we are discussing witches you narrow it down to just Ireland .

    But even so we did have a few , so now you will focus on how humane we were compared to others ?

    https://sites.google.com/site/supernaturaleire/irish-witch-trials

    Oh sorry, I thought we were referring to the abuse by the RC church. Got you now.

    I'm not sure what witch trials have to do with my points on the Reformation and Enlightenment. Could you explain?


  • #710
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    I'm a Creationist ... and therefore in a minority ... and I'm taxed to pay for both secular and religious ethos schools of all denominations.

    Like I have said, I don't expect a school to start teaching Creationism, just because my children go there ... and it's equally unreasonable for anybody of any other minority belief, to expect that a school will turn itself inside out to accommodate their beliefs.
    What I do expect, is that they will respect my faith (or lack of it) and that of my children.

    ... and that is what happens, in my experience.

    And the best way to respect your faith is by teaching none . Let you and everyone else do it on your own time or open your own self funded schools


  • #711
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    Nineteen NINE now. Worrying..
    Oh ye of little Faith!!!:D
    The Grand Slam beckons!!!


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  • #712
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    Oh sorry, I thought we were referring to the abuse by the RC church. Got you now.

    I'm not sure what witch trials have to do with my points on the Reformation and Enlightenment. Could you explain?

    You mentioned the reformation and the enlightenment ,you didn't make any points on them.

    And the Enlightenment was despite the Church not because of it . Since its inception The Church has opposed or enabled opposition to virtually every single reform in society and still do to this day . Of course 50 to 100 years later they claim credit for it. The classic examples being Irish Education and slavery


  • #713
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    Jewish Law was Jewish Law and it was codified allright in the OT.
    The NT marks the redeeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ which created a new perfect covenant under grace rather than under imperfect law, between God and man.

    but it sill gets me back to "if" the god in the OT "spoke" to the jews and gave them various moral "blueprints" why wasnt one of them... nobody should be a forced slave? I just dont see a timeless god at work. Judaism is indistinguishable from being a local backward religion of the time.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #714
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    There would be no need for "nearest" in a secular school. I don't want respect for my difference in my child's school, I want all religions to be respected equally as something external to school community.
    Religious doctrine and beliefs can be transmitted through the religious institution the child and its family adhere to.
    Religious doctrine and beliefs cannot be transmitted through the religious institution the child and its family adhere to if these beliefs are disrespected 5 days a week in school.

    ... and religions cannot be respected as something external to the school community ... when they are internal to the community as the religions of the members of that community.

    This principle plays into the hands of atheists by effectively having practical atheism as the 'ethos' of the school ... and no religious expression allowed therein.
    Atheism has free reign within the school while a divine foot isn't allowed inside its thresholds.


  • #715
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    Religious doctrine and beliefs cannot be transmitted through the religious institution the child and its family adhere to if these beliefs are disrespected 5 days a week in school.

    ... and religions cannot be respected as something external to the school community ... when they are internal to the community as the religions of the members of that community.

    This principle plays into the hands of atheists by effectively having practical atheism as the 'ethos' of the school ... and no religious expression allowed therein.
    Atheism has free reign within the school while a divine foot isn't allowed inside its thresholds.

    How would they be disrespected in a secular school? Not dealing with religious doctrine in a secular, state-sponsored school is not disrespecting it.


  • #716
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    You mentioned the reformation and the enlightenment ,you didn't make any points on them.

    And the Enlightenment was despite the Church not because of it . Since its inception The Church has opposed or enabled virtually every single reform in society and still do to this day . Of course 50 to 100 years later they claim credit for it. The classic examples being Irish Education and slavery

    Of course I made points of them; they were an integral part of the point of my text. We had our "Dark Ages", then an opening up of access to the written word and learning, which led to the Reformation, which was a factor in the Enlightenment.

    The Enlightenment didn't happen despite the church. The use of the vernacular in Reformed Christianity, the focus on the individual, and other (for the time) revolutionary ideas directly contributed to the ideas of the Enlightenment. That's not to say that the institutional churches, Roman Catholic or Reformed, didn't see Enlightenment ideas as a threat, but the fact is that the change in thinking that developed over the centuries before were a major factor in Enlightenment thinking, even for those who rejected religion.


  • #717
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    How would they be disrespected in a secular school? Not dealing with religious doctrine in a secular, state-sponsored school is not disrespecting it.
    The problem is that everything will be presented from a secular atheistic perspective in such a school ... with no alternative opinion allowed ... and with even the tiniest expression of religion banned.

    ... a perfect situation for Atheists ... but a 'cold house' for people of religious faith ... and their leaders.

    You cannot cherish and respect difference ... by banning difference.

    Multi-denominational schools have a great role to play in our increasingly multi-cultural societies ... non-denominational schools are fine for anybody who is irreligious and/or doesn't want to have anything to do with religion ... and that is OK too.


  • #718
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    Of course I made points of them; they were an integral part of the point of my text. We had our "Dark Ages", then an opening up of access to the written word and learning, which led to the Reformation, which was a factor in the Enlightenment.

    The Enlightenment didn't happen despite the church. The use of the vernacular in Reformed Christianity, the focus on the individual, and other (for the time) revolutionary ideas directly contributed to the ideas of the Enlightenment. That's not to say that the institutional churches, Roman Catholic or Reformed, didn't see Enlightenment ideas as a threat, but the fact is that the change in thinking that developed over the centuries before were a major factor in Enlightenment thinking, even for those who rejected religion.

    Simply not correct , for example far from fostering the vernacular the churches bitterly opposed the translation of the bible into the vernacular , the experience William Tyndale I mentioned earlier is a case in point.

    But all these issues were discussed about 20 or so pages back and probably will be in 20 more ,so there is little point in rehashing them .


  • #719
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    Simply not correct , for example far from fostering the vernacular the churches bitterly opposed the translation of the bible into the vernacular , the experience William Tyndale I mentioned earlier is a case in point.

    But all these issues were discussed about 20 or so pages back and probably will be in 20 more ,so there is little point in rehashing them .
    One church opposed the vernacular ... it was a principle for the reformed churches.


  • #720
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    J C wrote: »
    The problem is that everything will be presented from a secular atheistic perspective in such a school ... with no alternative opinion allowed ... and with even the tiniest expression of religion banned.

    ... a perfect situation for Atheists ... but a 'cold house' for people of religious faith ... and their leaders.

    You cannot cherish and respect difference ... by banning difference.

    Multi-denominational schools have a great role to play in our increasingly multi-cultural societies ... non-denominational schools are fine for anybody who is irreligious and/or doesn't want to have anything to do with religion.

    Things would be presented from a factual basis. Religious doctrine is something for religious institutions, not for academic institutions.

    Who said anything about banning difference? Nobody is banned from being different - the only issue is one religion being given preferential treatment, and those of other religions or non being excluded.


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  • #721
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    katydid wrote: »
    Things would be presented from a factual basis. Religious doctrine is something for religious institutions, not for academic institutions.

    Who said anything about banning difference? Nobody is banned from being different - the only issue is one religion being given preferential treatment, and those of other religions or non being excluded.
    Are they banned from expressing their religious differences?

    The solution wouldn't appear to be to give irreligion preferential treatment ... with all religious expression excluded.


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