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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #662
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    Relevant to the point that it was not the Roman Catholic religion that was doing the abusing. Any more than Islam is chopping people's heads off in Syria.

    Was it the RCC burning witches then ?


  • #663
    looksee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 30,528 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    katydid wrote: »
    Relevant to the point that it was not the Roman Catholic religion that was doing the abusing. Any more than Islam is chopping people's heads off in Syria.

    So what is the RC religion then? Is it the buildings, is it the Pope, what is it? I thought the church was the people, and the religion was what they believed. If people act in the name of the religion, and the hierarchy (who speak on behalf of the people/god) colludes in this, then who else is responsible?


  • #664
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yeah , funny though how all that support doesn't seem to help much in changing the law .

    Oh I think it will, politicians are like the French aristocrat who seeing a crowd running down the street said, "my people are going some whare, I must hurry to lead them their"


  • #665
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    katydid wrote: »
    Relevant to the point that it was not the Roman Catholic religion that was doing the abusing. Any more than Islam is chopping people's heads off in Syria.

    This is a tough distinction to make, like Islam is used to justify the actions of ISIS, Catholicism was used to justify the abuses carried out at the time.
    While it's comforting to tell ourselves it's an abuse of the religion, the problem is the religion can be used in this way.
    The fact is it is Islam chopping heads off and kidnapping school girls, it was the RCC doing the abusing, in the case of laundries, it was the actual organizationorganization that set up and ran them.


    You would think God would make his instructions a little clearer so this kind of thing couldn't happen!


  • #666
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    What about being heavily influenced by McQuaid?
    What about it?

    The 'special place' of Roman Catholicism in it was removed over 50 years ago ... when McQuaid was still alive ... and without opposition from him.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    Like I have said, the dominance of Roman Catholocism could have been far more pervasive if they had really tried (because of the overwhelming majority of the population who were Roman Catholics).

    This wikipedia article would indicate that the McQuaid influence over the Constitution is over-rated and a bit of an 'urban legend' TBH.
    Quote:-
    "Co-maker of the Constitution" 1937
    In 1937 a new Irish Constitution was adopted which, inter alia, acknowledged the "special position" of the Catholic Church "as the guardian of the Faith professed by the great majority of the citizens."[10] It also forbade any established state church and encouraged freedom of religion.

    Chapter 8 of John Cooney's "John Charles McQuaid, Ruler of Catholic Ireland" is entitled "Co-maker of the Constitution" and begins:

    “ From early 1937 Eamonn de Valera was bombarded with letters daily – sometimes twice a day – from Fr. John McQuaid C.S.Sp. They were crammed with suggestions, viewpoints, documents and learned references on nearly every aspect on what was to become Bunreacht na hEireann – the Constitution of Ireland. McQuaid was the persistent adviser, 'one of the great architects of the Constitution, albeith in the shadows'. However, McQuaid's efforts to enshrine the absolute claims of the Catholic Church as the Church of Christ were frustrated by de Valera. ”
    In contrast historian Dermot Keogh (co-author with Andrew McCarthy of "The Making of the Irish Constitution 1937") has written:

    “ The chapter entitled "Co-maker of the Constitution", is an example of this overstatement. The author does not appear to understand the complexity involved in handling the McQuaid papers relating to the drafting process. Many documents are undated and it is quite difficult to determine their respective influence on those who drafted the final document. The term 'co-maker' implies that the archbishop enjoyed an equal share with de Valera. However, this is to further compound a fundamental misunderstanding of the drafting process: de Valera was not the ‘other’ author of the 1937 constitution.
    To over-personalise in this way the functioning of government under Fianna Fáil is to distort a complex reality. If there was a single author of the 1937 constitution then that author must have been John Hearne, the legal officer in the Department of External Affairs. Maurice Moynihan was also a significant force. McQuaid played an important role in the whole process. That is not in dispute. But to suggest that he was the "co-maker" of the constitution is simply not defensible.

    Your vision of an absolute secular society with the public expression of religion banned, would make McQuaid a total liberal in matters of religious (and irreligious) freedom in comparison ... all the more remarkable when we consider that he represented the views of over 95% of the population at the time ... while you represent the views of less than 1% of the population, even yet.


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  • #667
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    This is a tough distinction to make, like Islam is used to justify the actions of ISIS, Catholicism was used to justify the abuses carried out at the time.
    While it's comforting to tell ourselves it's an abuse of the religion, the problem is the religion can be used in this way.
    The fact is it is Islam chopping heads off and kidnapping school girls, it was the RCC doing the abusing, in the case of laundries, it was the actual organizationorganization that set up and ran them.


    You would think God would make his instructions a little clearer so this kind of thing couldn't happen!
    He has made his instructions clear ... He has told us to love our neighbour as ourselves ... most people ignore His advice some of the time and some people ignore His advice most of the time (to paraphrase Lincoln).


  • #668
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    He has told us to love our neighbour as ourselves ... some people simply ignore His advice.

    but its ok to own slaves and their children.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #669
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    but its ok to own slaves and their children.
    It's not ... but you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.:eek:


  • #670
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Oh I think it will, politicians are like the French aristocrat who seeing a crowd running down the street said, "my people are going some whare, I must hurry to lead them their"
    ... and we all know how that ended ... with the aristo becoming intimate with Madame Guillotine!!:eek:


  • #671
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    It's not ... but you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.:eek:

    thats not the point but also jewish culture was full of slavery , civilisation advances and dumps immoral ways of behaving. One would expect God to have a timeless view that it is clearly inherently wrong. The "OT god" certainly approved and Jesus didnt have a problem with it, making him a nice guy but of his time

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



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  • #672
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    Was it the RCC burning witches then ?
    It was usually the secular authorities that actually did the burning.

    In any event that was then ... and this is now ... you need to get with the programme (of tolerance and freedom of religion in all modern states)!!!:eek:


  • #673
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    thats not the point but also jewish culture was full of slavery , civilisation advances and dumps immoral ways of behaving. One would expect God to have a timeless view that it is clearly inherently wrong. The "OT god" certainly approved and Jesus didnt have a problem with it, making him a nice guy but of his time
    God never approved of the exploitation of one Human Being by another ... we were all created equal before God.


  • #674
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    wrote:
    Originally Posted by marienbad View Post
    Yeah , funny though how all that support doesn't seem to help much in changing the law.
    You might have answered your own statement there!!!


  • #675
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,163 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    It was usually the secular authorities that actually did the burning.

    In any event that was then ... and this is now ... you need to get with the programme (of tolerance and freedom of religion in all modern states)!!!:eek:

    So do we embrace or reject secularism? Your post suggests both :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #676
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    God never approved of the exploitation of one Human Being by another ... we were all created equal before God.

    See below , the Jews, Jesus and early christians had beliefs of their time , in this case none appear to be infused with a timeless morality. if someone now went back in time to "fix " history they would be considered pretty evil if they condoned slavery or raping ones way into marriage


    However, you may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way. (Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT)

    If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, 'I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.' If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

    When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)


    From the NT
    Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

    Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them. (1 Timothy 6:1-2 NLT)


    The servant will be severely punished, for though he knew his duty, he refused to do it. "But people who are not aware that they are doing wrong will be punished only lightly. Much is required from those to whom much is given, and much more is required from those to whom much more is given." (Luke 12:47-48 NLT)

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #677
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    So do we embrace or reject secularism? Your post suggests both :confused:
    I embrace a secularism that is respectful of all religions and none ... and I reject a narrow sectarian version of 'secularism' that is intolerant of religion and attempts to ban all public expression of religious faith.


  • #678
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,192 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    J C wrote: »
    It's not ... but you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.:eek:

    Ugh, I know I shouldn't waste my time and precious bytes on Boards' servers responding to your latest bout of verbal diarrhoea, but I wouldn't call the Roman Empire secular, when you consider that the Emperor was considered a god.


  • #679
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    See below , the Jews, Jesus and early christians had beliefs of their time , in this case none appear to be infused with a timeless morality. if someone now went back in time to "fix " history they would be considered pretty evil if they condoned slavery or raping ones way into marriage
    Yes, the Jewish Laws were quite fallible ... just like all law can be.

    The Christian advice to excel in their work for their masters remains good advice still, for every employee who wishes to succeed in their chosen career.
    ... as for the slavery itself, you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.


  • #680
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,846 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    A percentage of those that push secularism seem to one that means a cultural exsanguination of all aspects of religion from life and to embrace one which has the state as the arbitrary of moral decisions. This does a diserverve to the evolution of the institutions that have made Western culture the up till recently dominant trend in global affairs.


  • #681
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Ugh, I know I shouldn't waste my time and precious bytes on Boards' servers responding to your latest bout of verbal diarrhoea, but I wouldn't call the Roman Empire secular, when you consider that the Emperor was considered a god.
    The Emperors certainly weren't Christian ... and the deification of self and therefore of man over God ... is actually an extreme expression of secularism.

    ... and please don't do yourself a disservice by engaging in coarse and vulgar language.


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  • #682
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,163 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    Yes, the Jewish Laws were quite fallible ... just like all law can be.

    The Christian advice to excel in their work for their masters remains good advice still, for every employee who wishes to succeed in their chosen career.
    ... as for the slavery itself, you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.

    For someone who claims to support secularism, you do seem keen to paint it a negative light.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #683
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Manach wrote: »
    A percentage of those that push secularism seem to one that means a cultural exsanguination of all aspects of religion from life and to embrace one which has the state as the arbitrary of moral decisions. This does a diserverve to the evolution of the institutions that have made Western culture the up till recently dominant trend in global affairs.
    It does much more than that ... as it usually results in the absolute suppression of religious expression with increasingly oppressive laws being promulgated to help to ensure this.


  • #684
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    SW wrote: »
    For someone who claims to support secularism, you do seem keen to paint it a negative light.
    Like all good things, secularism can have it's dark side ... and we all need to be aware of both its good and bad sides ... and ensure that only its good side gets expressed.:)


  • #685
    silverharp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,853 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    J C wrote: »
    Yes, the Jewish Laws were quite fallible ... just like all law can be.

    but they werent "man made" they were laws revealed to the jews by God? or are you saying that the whole OT is a man made nonsense? I thought the NT logic was that the new covenant replaced the old , not that the old one was man made
    J C wrote: »
    The Christian advice to excel in their work for their masters remains good advice still, for every employee who wishes to succeed in their chosen career.
    ... as for the slavery itself, you can blame the Secular Roman authorities for that particular injustice.

    I dont care who was running it , the NT says its ok for christians to own slaves, no that it is inherently evil.

    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • #686
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    silverharp wrote: »
    but they werent "man made" they were laws revealed to the jews by God? or are you saying that the whole OT is a man made nonsense? I thought the NT logic was that the new covenant replaced the old , not that the old one was man made
    Jewish Law was Jewish Law and it was codified allright in the OT.
    The NT marks the redeeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ which created a new perfect covenant under grace rather than under imperfect law, between God and man.

    silverharp wrote: »
    I dont care who was running it , the NT says its ok for christians to own slaves, no that it is inherently evil.
    The NT didn't advocate subversion of the state or it's laws ... and Christians continue to not do so.


  • #687
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,192 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    Manach wrote: »
    A percentage of those that push secularism seem to one that means a cultural exsanguination of all aspects of religion from life and to embrace one which has the state as the arbitrary of moral decisions. This does a diserverve to the evolution of the institutions that have made Western culture the up till recently dominant trend in global affairs.

    This country allowed your kind to be "moral arbitrators", and that resulted in decades of repression.


  • #688
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    It was usually the secular authorities that actually did the burning.

    In any event that was then ... and this is now ... you need to get with the programme (of tolerance and freedom of religion in all modern states)!!!:eek:

    Same old same old ... take responsibility for nothing and credit for everything.

    Inquisition,witches,Cathars,Crusades,Galileo ,Tyndale,Magdalene Laundries,Child Abuse and on and on , somebody else did it .

    Dante,Michelangelo,Da Vinci,Bernini , Johannes Passion, K626,Irish Education all because we did it.

    Irish education of course is the classic example , all the good was the institution and all the bad was the individual , Jesuits rule ok.


  • #689
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,192 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    marienbad wrote: »
    Same old same old ... take responsibility for nothing and credit for everything.

    Inquisition,witches,Cathars,Crusades,Galileo ,Tyndale,Magdalene Laundries,Child Abuse and on and on , somebody else did it .

    Dante,Michelangelo,Da Vinci,Bernini , Johannes Passion, K626,Irish Education all because we did it.

    Irish education of course is the classic example , all the good was the institution and all the bad was the individual , Jesuits rule ok.

    Honestly, going by some posts from the Christian far-right in here, they'd defend abusive parents just because they put a roof over their victims' heads.


  • #690
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    This country allowed your kind to be "moral arbitrators", and that resulted in decades of repression.
    ... and who are our new 'moral arbitrators' going to be and what will be the basis for their 'arbitrations'?
    ... we need to be very careful that we don't jump from the frying pan into the fire!!!

    Like I have said, I have never felt 'repressed' by people like Manach ... but I have certainly felt that I would be repressed, if people with attitudes like you have expressd towards me, ever got any power over me.


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  • #691
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Honestly, going by some posts from the Christian far-right in here, they'd defend abusive parents just because they put a roof over their victims' heads.
    ... evidence please for your sweeping, prejudicial and quite frankly, sectarian statement??

    ... and who are these 'Christian far-right' that you are speaking of?


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