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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Part 2)

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Comments

  • #632
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    J C wrote: »

    I'd say that everybody in a glasshouse should avoid throwing stones ... and the deficiencies of both religion and irreligion should give everyone pause to ponder. It would seem that these deficiencies are a part of Human Nature that emerge when either religion of irreligion have uncontested and near monopoly access to power.

    What is irreligion?


  • #633
    orubiru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,290 ✭✭✭orubiru


    katydid wrote: »
    Which most Christians don't accept. It's a MYTH.

    No.

    You BELIEVE it's a myth.

    Gotcha!


  • #634
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    This hoary old chestnut again ! Every freedom we have had to be wrested tooth and nail from Christianity and the other religions .

    What history books are you reading ? Next you will be telling us that we wouldn't be educated without the church .

    Well actually, the truth is somewhere between the two. Christianity kept alive and spread learning across the centuries. Some elements tried to keep this learning and the knowledge it provided hidden from the masses, for purposes of control, but increasingly, despite these elements, learning and knowledge, and the valuing of the individual came to be understood. The Reformation, with all the horrors on both sides, is one of the main factors in the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century, because it opened up learning to the people, and started them thinking for themselves. And the Enlightenment is the granddaddy of our modern world view.


  • #635
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    Yes there was all these things in Ireland ... but please remember that at the same time as these things existed in ireland ... the Atheistic Communists in Russia were killling and starving many of it's dissidents to death in various Gulags ... with many more sent for brainwashing AKA 're-education'.
    ... and the record of the Atheist Communists on criminalising homosexuality is also mixed, to say the least:-
    Quote Wikipedia:-
    In 1917 in the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic, Vladimir Lenin decriminalized homosexuality, and allowed openly homosexual people to serve in the government. Joseph Stalin re-criminalized homosexuality in 1933 (Stalin's criminal code punishing gay men by up to five years in prison with hard labor) and the law withstood through the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and was only repealed with the fall of communism in 1993.

    I'd say that everybody in a glasshouse should avoid throwing stones ... and the deficiencies of both religion and irreligion should give everyone pause to ponder. It would seem that these deficiencies are a part of Human Nature that emerge when either religion of irreligion have uncontested and near monopoly access to power.

    Relevance ? You are just mistaking the dynamics of totalitarian regimes . Anything that offers a counterweight to the ruling elite is deemed an enemy. That can be religion, trade unions, sports organisation ,even the local chess club. And you see that on the right and left - Communism Nazism, the lot . It is all about getting power and holding on to it.

    Nothing to do with atheism per se. And by the way Stalin started out training for the priest hood and some say he returned to his faith before he died . That does not mean very much either.


  • #636
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    orubiru wrote: »
    No.

    You BELIEVE it's a myth.

    Gotcha!

    No, it IS a myth. It is a story written by people three thousand years ago, based on the oral history of their people, which tries to explain the creation of the world, and the relationship between humans and the divine in a symbolic way.


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  • #637
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    katydid wrote: »
    No, it IS a myth. It is a story written by people three thousand years ago, based on the oral history of their people, which tries to explain the creation of the world, and the relationship between humans and the divine in a symbolic way.

    Since it's a myth, in both your view and mine, then this means the character called God from that myth and from other books in the bible (the god that you believe in) has no justification to be called the creator of the universe.


  • #638
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    Well actually, the truth is somewhere between the two. Christianity kept alive and spread learning across the centuries. Some elements tried to keep this learning and the knowledge it provided hidden from the masses, for purposes of control, but increasingly, despite these elements, learning and knowledge, and the valuing of the individual came to be understood. The Reformation, with all the horrors on both sides, is one of the main factors in the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century, because it opened up learning to the people, and started them thinking for themselves. And the Enlightenment is the granddaddy of our modern world view.

    Well actually not quite , the so called dark ages were only dark in Western Europe , the Islamic and Byzantine worlds happily kept reading their Plato Aristotle etc .

    A bit like the notion that Columbus discovered America - I don't think the indigenous tribes ever realized they were lost . We are too Euro-centric at times.


  • #639
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    My answers in blue below.
    marienbad wrote: »
    No, that is not what I mean .

    I don't want the Catholic church ever again having the grip on Irish Society that it once had and still does in many areas .
    The so-called 'grip' was and is more of an 'urban legend' than a fact. The RCC naturally dominates Irish Society simply because of the demographics ... but I have never felt insulted (or potentially oppressed) by any Roman Catholic on this forum ... and I cannot say the same about many of the posts that were posted by apparent Atheists here.

    I don't want Sharia law ,
    Neither do I.
    I don't want Orthodox Monks in Russia cheerleading for Putin as he beats up gay people .
    Neither do I.
    I don't want born again Christians forcing creationism into science classes .
    Neither do I.
    I don't want the angelus on the state broadcaster.
    I have no particular problem with this ... there are plenty of other things on TV that don't float my boat either ... but I always have the choice to change channel. Thst's how tolerance for other people's religion should operate.
    I don't want any more women to die because the medical profession are paralysed by unworkable laws
    Neither do I - but I also don't want any un-born children to die needlessly either.
    I want people to be able to drink on Good Friday and shop on a Sunday if they choose .
    People can already shop on a Sunday in Ireland ... but they are banned by law from doing so in Secular France. I must say I prefer the quiet and peace on a Sunday in France to the busy-busy day that Sunday has become in Ireland. We all need to collectivley 're-charge our batteries' ... and Sunday is as good a day as any for society to choose to do this.
    I want same sex civil marriage.
    I have no issue with equality for all people ... and that includes people living together in long term sexual and non-sexual situations including homosexual unions. In common with some homosexuals, I believe that the term 'marriage' should be reserved to committed unions between one man and one woman.I want the same discrimination laws applied to education as everywhere else
    So do I.

    and that just a start. Other than that I fully support the right of any and all religions to carry on their business


  • #640
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    JC as one who suffered immensely under the Catholic Church I can assure you it is anything but an ''urban legend '' . And to think otherwise is an appalling denial of the reality for many.

    Though I suspect you do not mean it as such , but it does come across that way.


  • #641
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    J C wrote: »
    My answers in blue below.

    Apparently in J C's world, the 1937 Irish Constitution was never relayed to the Vatican for approval.


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  • #642
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    orubiru wrote: »
    J C if you believe in the "miracle of creation" then surely God intended for these things to happen?

    If so then why are you even trying to use it to make a point?

    Did God create Atheists? Why?
    God doesn't want evil to happen ... but Humans have the free will to do evil, if they want.

    God didn't create Atheists ... they created themselves!!!:):P


  • #643
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    J C wrote: »
    God doesn't want evil to happen ... but Humans have the free will to do evil, if they want.

    God didn't create Atheists ... they created themselves!!!:):P

    Do I even need to point out the "I create evil" quote from Isaiah?


  • #644
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    marienbad wrote: »
    JC as one who suffered immensely under the Catholic Church I can assure you it is anything but an ''urban legend '' . And to think otherwise is an appalling denial of the reality for many.

    Though I suspect you do not mean it as such , but it does come across that way.
    People can suffer under many regimes and I'm sorry to hear that you suffered under the Roman Catholic Church.
    The point I was making is that I have never felt oppressed by the Roman Catholic Church ... so we have had different experiences, I guess.


  • #645
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Do I even need to point out the "I create evil" quote from Isaiah?
    ... only in the sense of allowing evil ... due to the grant of free-will to Mankind.


  • #646
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    J C wrote: »
    ... only in the sense of allowing evil ... due to the grant of free-will to Mankind.

    So you read stuff that isn't there? You don't read stuff that is there? Great, thanks for clearing that up.


  • #647
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    marienbad wrote: »
    Well actually not quite , the so called dark ages were only dark in Western Europe , the Islamic and Byzantine worlds happily kept reading their Plato Aristotle etc .

    A bit like the notion that Columbus discovered America - I don't think the indigenous tribes ever realized they were lost . We are too Euro-centric at times.

    Actually the dark ages might not have been that dark in Europe either, we don't know, it's dark to us.


  • #648
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,254 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    marienbad wrote: »
    No, that is not what I mean .

    I don't want the Catholic church ever again having the grip on Irish Society that it once had and still does in many areas .
    I DONT EITHER.

    I don't want Sharia law ,
    I DONT EITHER

    I don't want Orthodox Monks in Russia cheerleading for Putin as he beats up gay people .

    I DONT EITHER
    I don't want born again Christians forcing creationism into science classes .

    I DONT EITHER
    I don't want the angelus on the state broadcaster.

    I DONT CARE ITHER WAY
    I don't want any more women to die because the medical profession are paralysed by unworkable laws
    I DONT EITHER

    I want people to be able to drink on Good Friday and shop on a Sunday if they choose .
    I DONT CARE ITHER WAY
    I want same sex civil marriage.

    SO DO I
    I want the same discrimination laws applied to education as everywhere else .
    So DO I

    and that just a start. Other than that I fully support the right of any and all religions to carry on their business

    Sorry for shouting too hard to edit properly on a tablet!
    I bet most people would support all of these points both religious and non religious. I bet the ones against them have both believers and non believers in their number.


  • #649
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    So you read stuff that isn't there? You don't read stuff that is there? Great, thanks for clearing that up.
    I take a plain reading of scripture.


  • #650
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Apparently in J C's world, the 1937 Irish Constitution was never relayed to the Vatican for approval.
    It probably was relayed to a few other centres of world power for approval, as well as the Vatican.:)

    So what?


  • #651
    RikuoAmero
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭RikuoAmero


    J C wrote: »
    It probably was relayed to a few other centres of world power for approval, as well as the Vatican.:)

    So what?

    What about being heavily influenced by McQuaid?


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  • #652
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    What about being heavily influenced by McQuaid?
    ... and a few more besides.
    So what?


  • #653
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Sorry for shouting too hard to edit properly on a tablet!
    I bet most people would support all of these points both religious and non religious. I bet the ones against them have both believers and non believers in their number.

    Yeah , funny though how all that support doesn't seem to help much in changing the law .


  • #654
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    J C wrote: »
    ... and a few more besides.
    So what?

    It is supposed to be a document for all and not just for the 'majority'


  • #655
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    RikuoAmero wrote: »
    Since it's a myth, in both your view and mine, then this means the character called God from that myth and from other books in the bible (the god that you believe in) has no justification to be called the creator of the universe.

    Nobody can know exactly how the universe was created, we can only try to explain or interpret it with our limited understanding. Just because a divinity is described as behaving in a specific way in a symbolic story doesn't mean the divinity doesn't exist - simple that he or she didn't necessarily behave in the way outlined in the symbolic story.


  • #656
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    Well actually not quite , the so called dark ages were only dark in Western Europe , the Islamic and Byzantine worlds happily kept reading their Plato Aristotle etc .

    A bit like the notion that Columbus discovered America - I don't think the indigenous tribes ever realized they were lost . We are too Euro-centric at times.

    But it's Western Europe I'm referring to - hence my references to the Reformation, the Enlightenment etc.

    The Islamic and Byzantine worlds may well have been reading their Plato, but that didn't last. We're the ones that moved towards a democratic society which respects the individual, with all that implies, while they are stuck in their own Dark Age


  • #657
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    JC as one who suffered immensely under the Catholic Church I can assure you it is anything but an ''urban legend '' . And to think otherwise is an appalling denial of the reality for many.

    Though I suspect you do not mean it as such , but it does come across that way.

    You suffered under those who abused the Roman Catholic church for their own agenda.


  • #658
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    You suffered under those who abused the Roman Catholic church for their own agenda.

    Yeah well , and who gave them that power , and left them operate unchecked , and moved them from place to place ? But lets leave it there and not derail the thread


  • #659
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    Yeah well , and who gave them that power , and left them operate unchecked , and moved them from place to place ? But lets leave it there and not derail the thread

    Other people abusing the RC church. There are always people who abuse power, whoever gives it to them.


  • #660
    marienbad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    Other people abusing the RC church. There are always people who abuse power, whoever gives it to them.

    so what ? how is this relevant ?


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  • #661
    katydid
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    so what ? how is this relevant ?

    Relevant to the point that it was not the Roman Catholic religion that was doing the abusing. Any more than Islam is chopping people's heads off in Syria.


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