Tyson Fury vs Joe Fraizer

Gringo180 · 26-12-2014 02:31PM

walshb wrote: »

But how? That is what is being asked. How does a one handed, and one punch fighter standing 5 feet 10 get to Fury's weak points consistently whilst also avoiding artillery from a man so much bigger, and a man who can throw every punch in the book with 250 lbs behind them? Tossed and thrown around with ease whilst being peppered all night with shots. It's like man vs boy here. Too much physical advantages being given to a man who will use them well.

Same way Haye beat that monster Valuev. Fury isnt clever enough to go all fight without been caught and when Frazier catches him its lights out. This fight lasts 5 rounds max and thats being kind to Fury.

walshb · 26-12-2014 02:55PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Same way Haye beat that monster Valuev. Fury isnt clever enough to go all fight without been caught and when Frazier catches him its lights out. This fight lasts 5 rounds max and thats being kind to Fury.

This is the problem. Looking at other fighters and comparing them to Frazier. Frazier is nothing like Haye, and fights nothing like him. Joe fights one very predictable way. Simple as that. Marches forward swinging a left hook. That won't cut it against Fury.

BTW, Valuev is atrocious. I'd give Joe a much better chance at beating Valuev than at beating Fury.

megadodge · 26-12-2014 03:30PM

Halloween Jack wrote: »

Still go back to Holyfield valuev, the size difference is even bigger and a decrepit Holyfield gave the bigger man a good fight. Tyson is obviously a better fighter than valuev but A prime Frazier is better than a ridiculously shot holyfield. Then you have the likes of manny beating a much bigger margarito. I the post I've quoted you don't provide any technical analysis either, just state relative heights and weights. (Haven't read the whole thread, so you may have provided such earlier.)

It's a fight Id love to watch, the only thing I'd say is we don't know that much about fury at top level, he's fought a string of bums thus far and hasn't exactly looked stellar most of the time. In saying that has displayed good skills at times and has got better over the last while.

In the post you quoted, the very first words were "Without actually giving my opinion on what I feel would be the outcome...".

I haven't stated anywhere who I think would win!

I was commenting on the very consistent manner of arguing by those who believe old-timers are virtually always better than their modern counterparts. It's just dogmatic "because I said so" type stuff and the very next post after mine highlights it - "He would beat him to a pulp with his fists thats how".

Do you not think it remarkable that the nostalgic amongst us never wax lyrical about the old-timers in sports where you can actually measure the performance? I wonder why that is?

But of course, when you CAN'T measure the performance, we never hear the end of how the moderns just can't compare. WHAT A BLOODY COINCIDENCE!!

And that's my whole point. It's an old pet hate of mine.

BTW I'm a big Joe Frazier fan. And I still haven't given my opinion on who I think would win, but whoever wins wouldn't do it easily.

Halloween Jack · 26-12-2014 09:10PM

megadodge wrote: »

In the post you quoted, the very first words were "Without actually giving my opinion on what I feel would be the outcome...".

I haven't stated anywhere who I think would win!

I was commenting on the very consistent manner of arguing by those who believe old-timers are virtually always better than their modern counterparts. It's just dogmatic "because I said so" type stuff and the very next post after mine highlights it - "He would beat him to a pulp with his fists thats how".

Do you not think it remarkable that the nostalgic amongst us never wax lyrical about the old-timers in sports where you can actually measure the performance? I wonder why that is?

But of course, when you CAN'T measure the performance, we never hear the end of how the moderns just can't compare. WHAT A BLOODY COINCIDENCE!!

And that's my whole point. It's an old pet hate of mine.

BTW I'm a big Joe Frazier fan. And I still haven't given my opinion on who I think would win, but whoever wins wouldn't do it easily.

Fair point. I actually think boxing lends itself to these types of comparisons moreso than other sports, at the end of the day its just 2 blokes in a ring and its only really the heavies that have seen a marked difference in the fighters. And its probably only the heavies that are contentious in this way, in terms of reputation we're comparing roberto duran to somebody like degale, thats probably what winds people up.

People talk about improvements in sports-science etc, but boxing really isnt at the forefront of that kind of stuff, in the way say cycling is. Its still very much a spit and sawdust type game with fight-game wisdom passed down from master to apprentice.... Likewise improved technology hasnt made much difference to the game like it has in other sports, the trend toward analytics hasnt really taken hold in boxing, i wonder is it useful? Boxing seems too qualitative for numbers to be too important though im open to correction.

Deiseboy01 · 27-12-2014 12:05AM

Initial thoughts was that this was a wind up, second thoughts too when the opening poster stated that Marco Huck beats Frazier, but the debate has been interesting.

I see the limitations Frazier has but he pushed possibly the greatest heavy all the way and beat him once, Tyson Fury has beaten a number of UK level deadbeats plus Derrick ****ing Chizora and possible the stand out on his resume Cunningham, how that gets him recognised as a better fighter than Frazier alludes me.

I think Frazier gets close, smashes Fury s flabby midsection, Fury drops the arms and head and gets tagged, repeatedly and stopped.

Shabra · 27-12-2014 09:02AM

megadodge wrote: »

In the post you quoted, the very first words were "Without actually giving my opinion on what I feel would be the outcome...".

I haven't stated anywhere who I think would win!

I was commenting on the very consistent manner of arguing by those who believe old-timers are virtually always better than their modern counterparts. It's just dogmatic "because I said so" type stuff and the very next post after mine highlights it - "He would beat him to a pulp with his fists thats how".

Do you not think it remarkable that the nostalgic amongst us never wax lyrical about the old-timers in sports where you can actually measure the performance? I wonder why that is?

But of course, when you CAN'T measure the performance, we never hear the end of how the moderns just can't compare. WHAT A BLOODY COINCIDENCE!!

And that's my whole point. It's an old pet hate of mine.

BTW I'm a big Joe Frazier fan. And I still haven't given my opinion on who I think would win, but whoever wins wouldn't do it easily.

That's it really, if there was a definite metric by which boxing ability could be measured I'don't be fairly certain the Klitcshkos would be ahead of the 70's greats. Just like Usain Bolt is ahead of the 70'Sorry sprinting greats.

Larsso30 · 27-12-2014 03:19PM

walshb wrote: »

He hasn't lit the world on fire, but he still beats the tar out of Frazier!

seriously, that is nonsense.

Hes bang average at best. if bulgarian taxi men are putting him on his arse, joe destroys him.

Littlehorny · 27-12-2014 07:03PM

Ali said that Frazier was the toughest man he ever fought and called him great after there third fight where they were both out on there feet after 14 rounds fought at a higher pace than todays heavyweights.
If Ali had a hard time with Frazier with his footwork, speed of hand and solid chin then Fury doesn't have a hope.

walshb · 27-12-2014 07:05PM

Littlehorny wrote: »

Ali said that Frazier was the toughest man he ever fought and called him great after there third fight where they were both out on there feet after 14 rounds fought at a higher pace than todays heavyweights.
If Ali had a hard time with Frazier with his footwork, speed of hand and solid chin then Fury doesn't have a hope.

Ali was 6 inches shorter and 35 lbs lighter than Fury. What Frazier got to do vs. a faded Manila Ali won't be what he gets to do against Fury. He will be lucky to land a single clean head shot all night.

terrymccarthy05 · 27-12-2014 07:13PM

barney4001 wrote: »

I would consider this an insult to the memory of joe frazier to be compared with the likes of fury

your are right

Too Tough To Die · 27-12-2014 07:14PM

If Tyson's head is right, he destroys Frazier. Too big, too slick.

Littlehorny · 27-12-2014 07:27PM

walshb wrote: »

Ali was 6 inches shorter and 35 lbs lighter than Fury. What Frazier got to do vs. a faded Manila Ali won't be what he gets to do a
gainst Fury. He will be lucky to land a single clean head shot all night.

Frazier also beat a much less faded Ali as you know. Ali was also much much faster of foot and hand than Fury will ever be. Ali also had a great chin which Fury does not.
Frazier would get to Fury, i have no doubt. He would be the rock that the big ship Fury would get smashed on.

walshb · 27-12-2014 07:30PM

Littlehorny wrote: »

Frazier also beat a much less faded Ali as you know. Ali was also much much faster of foot and hand than Fury will ever be. Ali also had a great chin which Fury does not.
Frazier would get to Fury, i have no doubt. He would be the rock that the big ship Fury would get smashed on.

Fury has yet to be stopped or knocked out. Ali's chin became great, or apparently great later on in his career when his speed and reflexes lessened. Ali still got badly hurt in his earlier days, including against the 1971 Frazier. Either way Fury's chin won't be an issue here. He will likely get hit to the head by only glancing Frazier swings.

Littlehorny · 27-12-2014 07:44PM

walshb wrote: »

Fury has yet to be stopped or knocked out. Ali's chin became great, or apparently great later on in his career when his speed and reflexes lessened. Ali still got badly hurt in his earlier days, including against the 1971 Frazier. Either way Fury's chin won't be an issue here. He will likely get hit to the head by only glancing Frazier swings.

Fury does not hit that hard and does not move his head. Frazier will get to him, watch some of his fights on youtube and you will see him bobbing and weaving, not getting hit. His left is like a whip, very fast. He fights at serious pace and dishes out alot of punishment. I'm not saying Frazier is even top ten heavy of all time but time will tell on Fury. He's average at best.

Gringo180 · 28-12-2014 10:30PM

walshb wrote: »

Ali was 6 inches shorter and 35 lbs lighter than Fury. What Frazier got to do vs. a faded Manila Ali won't be what he gets to do against Fury. He will be lucky to land a single clean head shot all night.

Even if he didnt land a head shot he will drop him with body shots.

walshb · 29-12-2014 05:55PM

Gringo180 wrote: »

Even if he didnt land a head shot he will drop him with body shots.

Highly doubt that happens, and even when he gets close I see Fury either hitting him with solid right uppercuts, or casually keeping him at bay with shoving. Seriously, if Frazier thought Foreman's size and strength were problematic he will be in a different world with Fury.

selectamatic · 27-07-2015 11:07PM

I'm genuinely sorry to resurrect such an old thread, however I was just browsing through the forum as today is the first time I've ever looked through the boxing forum on boards I'm usually more at home in the farming forum :P However I nearly spat me tea out all over the lap top when I seen this thread. It astounds me that this of all match ups should even enter ones mind. This is tyson fury we're talking about not Mike tyson! Joe would have Fury buckled with body shot's :rolleyes: The man nearly locked Ali's hips up in their third fight with body shots and that was when he was passed his prime. He also had an outstanding ability to take a punch again the thriller in manilla is testament to this some of the shots he took in the early rounds were mind numbing and he didn't even take a knee, sure he staggered but he threw right back and soldiered on. Fury just wouldn't knock fraizer out he just simply wouldn't. I'm actually still at a loss as to how this was posted as a serious question.

cowzerp · 28-07-2015 07:33AM

selectamatic wrote: »

I'm genuinely sorry to resurrect such an old thread, however I was just browsing through the forum as today is the first time I've ever looked through the boxing forum on boards I'm usually more at home in the farming forum :P However I nearly spat me tea out all over the lap top when I seen this thread. It astounds me that this of all match ups should even enter ones mind. This is tyson fury we're talking about not Mike tyson! Joe would have Fury buckled with body shot's :rolleyes: The man nearly locked Ali's hips up in their third fight with body shots and that was when he was passed his prime. He also had an outstanding ability to take a punch again the thriller in manilla is testament to this some of the shots he took in the early rounds were mind numbing and he didn't even take a knee, sure he staggered but he threw right back and soldiered on. Fury just wouldn't knock fraizer out he just simply wouldn't. I'm actually still at a loss as to how this was posted as a serious question.

Stick to the farming!
there is a reason why you don't be on this page and it's because you are just not that into Boxing.
Furey is 6,8" and joe about 5,10" and although a legend was quite limited.

efb · 28-07-2015 07:35AM

cowzerp wrote: »

Stick to the farming!
there is a reason why you don't be on this page and it's because you are just not that into Boxing.
Furey is 6,8" and joe about 5,10" and although a legend was quite limited.

That's a bit harsh! I think most people here said Frazier would win

Mantis Toboggan · 28-07-2015 07:41AM

It's sad to say but Frazer would get his head jabbed off.

cowzerp · 28-07-2015 07:53AM

efb wrote: »

That's a bit harsh! I think most people here said Frazier would win

I just went through it there and it's the opposite
The only people saying frazier would win are those who don't post on here ever, Basically non boxing fans who just know frazier was a legend, and probably don't realise Frazier would be journey man now, the Boxing world has moved on and Joe was to lumbering and to limited and to small.

walshb · 28-07-2015 08:51AM

selectamatic wrote: »

I'm genuinely sorry to resurrect such an old thread, however I was just browsing through the forum as today is the first time I've ever looked through the boxing forum on boards I'm usually more at home in the farming forum :P However I nearly spat me tea out all over the lap top when I seen this thread. It astounds me that this of all match ups should even enter ones mind. This is tyson fury we're talking about not Mike tyson! Joe would have Fury buckled with body shot's :rolleyes: The man nearly locked Ali's hips up in their third fight with body shots and that was when he was passed his prime. He also had an outstanding ability to take a punch again the thriller in manilla is testament to this some of the shots he took in the early rounds were mind numbing and he didn't even take a knee, sure he staggered but he threw right back and soldiered on. Fury just wouldn't knock fraizer out he just simply wouldn't. I'm actually still at a loss as to how this was posted as a serious question.

Ali was 210-215 and stood 6 feet 2/3. Fury is 5 inches taller and many lbs heavier. To try and compare the effects/effectiveness that Frazier will have on both men is ridiculous. Ali was not really able to push Joe off him. I think Fury has little trouble mauling and man handling and keeping Joe well off him via physicality and punching. This is a complete mismatch. It's a mismatch primarily because one man is so much bigger than the other. Added to this, the far bigger man can box and punch and hurt you. A no brainer.

walshb · 28-07-2015 09:17AM

cowzerp wrote: »

I just went through it there and it's the opposite
The only people saying frazier would win are those who don't post on here ever, Basically non boxing fans who just know frazier was a legend, and probably don't realise Frazier would be journey man now, the Boxing world has moved on and Joe was to lumbering and to limited and to small.

Actually, HigginsJ is a fairly regular poster who got many thanks for post 4 on this thread.

Henno30 is a very frequent poster who thinks Fury has no chance....

Why stop at Frazier. I mean, Bob Foster (LHW) surely would destroy Fury as well, no?

walshb · 28-07-2015 12:31PM

Grenadier wrote: »

All that shows is how many people have Rose tinted glasses. If The 100m sprint couldn't be measured objectively I'm sure there would be many people who think the sprinters in the old days were better than him.

Who is him?

selectamatic · 28-07-2015 02:57PM

cowzerp wrote: »

Stick to the farming!
there is a reason why you don't be on this page and it's because you are just not that into Boxing.
Furey is 6,8" and joe about 5,10" and although a legend was quite limited.

Steve Cunningham nearly cut fury down to size and let's be honest he's not exactly the finest cruiser weight to lace the gloves. Fury although 6,8 likes to get sucked into brawls and it'd suit him better to stay outside as he's not as indestructible as he lets on. There's a reason in the OP that it's said all American forums would pick fraizer America is the home of great heavy weights something I can guarantee fury will never be. I fear you're taking what they say on box nation a bit too seriously with the likes of David price on about working his way back to the top! Well as we can see from the weekend that went well and funny enough I don't remember him ever being at the top! Fury is a relatively accomplished domestic fighter in a relatively poor crop of domestic fighters, world class he ain't! His grit and determination has never been proven and I believe it's something he lacks and his punching power is below average for a man of his size a host of his knock outs and tko's have come when his unfit and out of condition opponents have been spent, there's a lot more to being a world class heavyweight than being over 6,6 and having a middlen jab! You can buy into this fury talk all ya want but 10 years from now no one else will be talking about him. I'm a keen boxing fan and dabbled in the sport myself only to succumb to chronic shoulder injuries, and you too seem to be a keen fight fan but if you think fury would trouble anything other than journey men than perhaps it is you who should find a new hobby. If you said tyson fury would easily beat joe fraizer to 90% of the boxing community you'd be laughed out the door and rightly so! Joe would walk right through that average jab with his boobing and weaving and he'd pound fury's soft unconditioned body into oblivion I'd actually have fury losing by not answering the bell for the 8th round.

cowzerp · 28-07-2015 03:09PM

selectamatic wrote: »

Steve Cunningham nearly cut fury down to size and let's be honest he's not exactly the finest cruiser weight to lace the gloves. Fury although 6,8 likes to get sucked into brawls and it'd suit him better to stay outside as he's not as indestructible as he lets on. There's a reason in the OP that it's said all American forums would pick fraizer America is the home of great heavy weights something I can garuntee fury will never be. I fear you're taking what they say on box nation a bit too seriously with the likes of David price on about working his way back to the top! Well as we can see from the weekend that went well and funny enough I don't remember him ever being at the top! Fury is a relatively accomplished domestic fighter in a relatively poor crop of domestic fighters, world class he ain't! His grit and determination has never been proven and I believe it's something he lacks and his punching power is below average for a man of his size a host of his knock outs and tko's have come when his unfit and out of condition opponents have been spent, there's a lot more to being a world class heavyweight than being over 6,6 and having a middlen jab! You can buy into this fury talk all ya want but 10 years from now no one else will be talking about him. I'm a keen boxing fan and dabbled in the sport myself only to succumb to chronic shoulder injuries, and you too seem to be a keen fight fan but if you think fury would trouble anything other than journey men than perhaps it is you who should find a new hobby. If you said tyson fury would easily beat joe fraizer to 90% of the boxing community you'd be laughed out the door and rightly so! Joe would walk right through that average jab with his nooning and weaving and he'd pound fury's soft unconditioned body into oblivion I'd actually have fury losing by not answering the bell for the 8th round.

American Boxing fans are clowns who cant see past the legends, there is plenty of them that would tell you Marciano would be the champ today and even more who would tell you that the Klitschko's are not good boxers, Frazier would just be above journeyman today and i think that is the bit you are not getting, to small, to basic and to flat footed, Furey is no great boxer to me but still bounces Frazier around the ring, You are over rating Frazier as far as i am concerned, He would struggle to be in the top 30 of all time in reality.

Mantis Toboggan · 28-07-2015 03:21PM

Fury would have a 31 cm reach advantage :eek:

I think it's fair to say that some people look back with the rose tinted glasses.
Frazier at 5f 10" just wouldn't survive in today's division. Cunningham is 6f 3" and even he got demolished by Fury (Albeit after he had knocked him down)

selectamatic · 28-07-2015 03:22PM

cowzerp wrote: »

American Boxing fans are clowns who cant see past the legends, there is plenty of them that would tell you Marciano would be the champ today and even more who would tell you that the Klitschko's are not good boxers, Frazier would just be above journeyman today and i think that is the bit you are not getting, to small, to basic and to flat footed, Furey is no great boxer to me but still bounces Frazier around the ring, You are over rating Frazier as far as i am concerned, He would struggle to be in the top 30 of all time in reality.

I don't appreciate you trying to class me as an american fan, I'm Irish and above all proud and supportive of the domestic scene. I have made no comment on the Klitchko's what so ever and anyone who would believe they are not great boxers is delusional and I am also no great fan of marciano's and his record is considerably padded something which wasn't the norm back then so I do feel his legend status is not proportionate to his achievements. How ever your views on Fury are very over blown with regards to his achievements. Just because he's 6'8 doesn't mean he's freakishly strong in his fights its not his pushing that causes fighters problems its the way he uses his considerable mass to lean on people! a good body puncher would punish him for this especially a body puncher like fraizer! We could go back and forth till the cows come home (Farming pun intended :P) but our views are so different it'd never reach a conclusion. We can let time dictate fury's legacy however in five years time I feel it is I who will have my views realised. Fraizer a journey man! please he had a journey man/ gritty style but that doesn't make him a journeyman his achievements prove he was a top fighter! much like that way fury's physique would lead you to believe he's an untouchable outside boxer it still doesn't make this notion true or make him world class, in fact I would go in so far as to say that it is fury who is the journey man.

cowzerp · 28-07-2015 03:23PM

Dennis Reynolds wrote: »

Fury would have a 31 cm reach advantage :eek:

I think it's fair to say that some people look back with the rose tinted glasses.
Frazier at 5f 10" just wouldn't survive in today's division. Cunningham is 6f 3" and even he got demolished by Fury (Albeit after he had knocked him down)

Also that punch Cunningham hit Fury with was a rocket regardless of his weight

walshb · 28-07-2015 03:24PM

selectamatic wrote: »

Joe would walk right through that average jab with his boobing and weaving and he'd pound fury's soft unconditioned body into oblivion I'd actually have fury losing by not answering the bell for the 8th round.

So, in essence you are pinning Joe's win on a body attack?

Tyson Fury vs Joe Fraizer

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