Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

RasTa · 27-10-2014 10:28AM

How dare any of you celebrate a last min equalizer....

Giggsy11 · 27-10-2014 10:36AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

Didn't see too much wrong with Mata's performance yesterday, held on to the ball well and won a lot of frees with quick feet. It's only in the Premier League that attacking midfielders/number 10's are criticised for their defensive frailties.

He didn't create much either. He is like Carrick now, plays without balls. Too afraid to take risky option to open up the defense.

Hopefully he will be back to his Chelsea best. Class player but not half the player he was at Chelsea.

duffman13 · 27-10-2014 10:37AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

He hasn't been great but he hasn't been nearly as bad as people are making out.

I agree but I expected a lot more from him this season. Still early yet and I don't expect him to go anywhere but he needs to make more impact to maintain a place in the team

lordgoat · 27-10-2014 10:45AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

Fellaini was excellent yesterday and our best player. weve all given him stick but credit where credit is due and i am delighted for him. Mata was poor though and anybody i talked to on the way out was of the consensus that he is slowly but surely heading towards the exit.

another CM signing, along with a fully fit squad(unlikely i know) and Mata is on his way to being a bit part player as Kagawa was last season.

I think I'd agree with this. Felliani was so disciplined. Worked hard and positionally was quite solid. I thought Mata was poor again. He's too slow to release the ball imo. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see him lasting at the club.

Janz was class. One or two more years and I can see him being one of the best in the league.

Rafael awful yet again, another stupid booking, he's grand going forward but positionally he's poor. Often the wrong side, sure he looks great with the tough tackles but Ivanovic and Coleman are a country mile ahead of him.

I will say though Raf is still better than Rojo, looks completely out of his depth, i'm hoping it's settling in that the problem is.

BloodBath · 27-10-2014 10:45AM

Nobody said he's bad. It's a case of is he good enough? Does he offer enough in a crucial position?

How flexible is he position wise? Good players can be played in multiple roles/positions to a high standard.

This is Manchester United we're talking about. The bar is high. Maybe too high for Mata.

You could excuse his lack of defensive skills if his attacking skills were amazing but they aren't.

Don't give me this crap of number 10's shouldn't be expected to have defensive skills either. Defence starts from the front. Closing down players, blocking and putting them under pressure as soon as they gain possession and tracking back when needed.

Harvey Low Fat Milk · 27-10-2014 10:47AM

My view about the whole marking on set pieces thing is a bit more forgiving. I don't think United could match Chelsea man for man in size. Ivanovic, Terry, Cahill, Matic and Drogba are all huge and have aerial goal threats. United had Fellaini, Smalling, Rojo and arguably RVP as the only United players physically matched and they were on three/four of them. There was bound to be one or two players in mismatches and Chelsea would've exploited it. Sickened by the goal and I think the 'wrong' man was on Drogba but there was always gonna be few mismatches at set pieces.

DM_7 · 27-10-2014 10:49AM

Will I Amnt wrote: »

He hasn't been great but he hasn't been nearly as bad as people are making out.

He was only okay. Created a couple of chances and was at his best in the first half when United broke quickly, something Chelsea stopped in the second half.

It was a tight game with little space to play in overall so I am not sure what could realistically be expected of him on the day. Di Maria, Januzaj, Fabregas, Oscar all struggled to get space to play and create in. Hazard was the best of the attackers but not as influential as Chelsea would have liked.

Chelsea chose to keep Oscar and sell Mata, Oscar did even less than Mata during the match.

Larry Wildman · 27-10-2014 10:49AM

Mata was a panic buy. Mourinho wanted rid of him which is a huge "caveat emptor". He's been given a chance in his favoured position and has been a big disappointment. We already had a number 10 (Kagawa) who wasn't really given a chance. Incredible stuff really.

DM_7 · 27-10-2014 10:52AM

BloodBath wrote: »

Nobody said he's bad. It's a case of is he good enough? Does he offer enough in a crucial position?

How flexible is he position wise? Good players can be played in multiple roles/positions to a high standard.

This is Manchester United we're talking about. The bar is high. Maybe too high for Mata.

You could excuse his lack of defensive skills if his attacking skills were amazing but they aren't.

Don't give me this crap of number 10's shouldn't be expected to have defensive skills either. Defence starts from the front. Closing down players, blocking and putting them under pressure as soon as they gain possession and tracking back when needed.

That is not how Van Gaal set up United to defend so why would Mata defend that way on his own?

Giggsy11 · 27-10-2014 10:56AM

Fellaini vs Matic, if it was any other midfielder Matic would have brushed them off easily.

http://giant.gfycat.com/AthleticUnhealthyCygnet.webm

Larry Wildman · 27-10-2014 10:57AM

Re Mata, Mourinho didn't fancy him and he can't really get a look in for the Spanish national side. And the proof of the pudding is in the eating...He has been poor for United.

A panic buy and a misfit.

BloodBath · 27-10-2014 11:01AM

DM_7 wrote: »

That is not how Van Gaal set up United to defend so why would Mata defend that way on his own?

Yesterday or in general. I'm not talking about yesterdays game here.

I already said Mata performed decently yesterday. It was one of his better games.

I still think Rooney would have had a bigger impact on the game though.

DM_7 · 27-10-2014 11:07AM

BloodBath wrote: »

Yesterday or in general. I'm not talking about yesterdays game here.

I already said Mata performed decently yesterday. It was one of his better games.

I still think Rooney would have had a bigger impact on the game though.

Generally he has not asked United to defend that way, allows opposition defenders time on the ball in deep positions and puts the squeeze on when the ball moves further forward, Mata has has no issue doing his defensive closing down when the ball is in midfield.

Its got United in trouble away from home as that suits Premier League teams who can then position other players higher up the pitch and play a long ball with a higher percentage chance of retaining possession.

homerjay2005 · 27-10-2014 11:08AM

lordgoat wrote: »

Ivanovic.... a country mile ahead of him.

ive said this a couple of times before, but if i could sign one defender for United, it would be this man. he can play accross the back 4, solid as f*ck and has a threat in the final 3rd also.

Yesterday just confirmed it for me. he is a super player.

KH25 · 27-10-2014 11:20AM

homerjay2005 wrote: »

ive said this a couple of times before, but if i could sign one defender for United, it would be this man. he can play accross the back 4, solid as f*ck and has a threat in the final 3rd also.

Yesterday just confirmed it for me. he is a super player.

And he was wrongly sent off too. Second challenge was a yellow by all means but not the first. The victim of a very poor referee. Ivanovic had a great game otherwise.

BloodBath · 27-10-2014 11:25AM

DM_7 wrote: »

Generally he has not asked United to defend that way, allows opposition defenders time on the ball in deep positions and puts the squeeze on when the ball moves further forward, Mata has has no issue doing his defensive closing down when the ball is in midfield.

Its got United in trouble away from home as that suits Premier League teams who can then position other players higher up the pitch and play a long ball with a higher percentage chance of retaining possession.

I'm talking about immediately after losing possession in their half. Obviously you don't want to commit too many men in their half when they have possession.

Like Rooneys red card there. Yes it was stupid but he seen danger and tried to foul to stop it. If he had caught the player lower it would have been a simple yellow. It's a defensive awareness you will not find with Mata.

beno619 · 27-10-2014 11:25AM

lordgoat wrote:

Rafael awful yet again, another stupid booking, he's grand going forward but positionally he's poor. Often the wrong side, sure he looks great with the tough tackles but Ivanovic and Coleman are a country mile ahead of him.

lordgoat wrote:

I will say though Raf is still better than Rojo, looks completely out of his depth, i'm hoping it's settling in that the problem is.

Ivanovic, Zabaleta,Coleman and Rafa would be the elite RB in the league and there wouldn't be that much between them.

Rafa has done a hell of a lot more in football than Coleman.

BloodBath wrote:

Nobody said he's bad. It's a case of is he good enough? Does he offer enough in a crucial position?

Yes Mata is world class, he had a solid first half but was very quite in the second.

Giggsy11 · 27-10-2014 11:25AM

lordgoat wrote: »

I think I'd agree with this. Felliani was so disciplined. Worked hard and positionally was quite solid. I thought Mata was poor again. He's too slow to release the ball imo. I hope I'm wrong but I can't see him lasting at the club.

Janz was class. One or two more years and I can see him being one of the best in the league.

Rafael awful yet again, another stupid booking, he's grand going forward but positionally he's poor. Often the wrong side, sure he looks great with the tough tackles but Ivanovic and Coleman are a country mile ahead of him.

I will say though Raf is still better than Rojo, looks completely out of his depth, i'm hoping it's settling in that the problem is.

He makes lot of rash and cynical fouls and gets away with it. Yesterday if Rafael made the foul like he did on Januzaj near the box people would have called Rafael an idiot, rash, liability and all the names under sun.

Ivanovic is excellent though. Arguably the best RB over the last 4-5 years. Just that if Ivanovic committed same foul on Hazard it would have been called as good defending after making wrong step, that's experience and all that.
Every single yellow card by Rafael is deemed as rash. It's so easy to put a wrong step when you face a fantastic dribbler like Hazard.

Same with Fellaini. Not sure who but someone blamed him for his yellow after pulling Hazard's shirt, that was a good foul tbh but Fellaini was blamed by 1 or 2 fans (not sure in this forum or other) but when Chelsea players did the same thing (like Hazard vs Rafael, Cesc, Oscar) it's called being cynical and knows how to break the game.

The Moldy Gowl · 27-10-2014 11:26AM

KH25 wrote: »

And he was wrongly sent off too. Second challenge was a yellow by all means but not the first. The victim of a very poor referee. Ivanovic had a great game otherwise.

Second yellow was a yellow, first was a yellow. Could have been booked for other tackles during the match.
Rightly sent off, not that it mattered when it was the last kick of the game.

BloodBath · 27-10-2014 11:26AM

KH25 wrote: »

And he was wrongly sent off too. Second challenge was a yellow by all means but not the first. The victim of a very poor referee. Ivanovic had a great game otherwise.

The first was for dissent, not the foul.

beno619 · 27-10-2014 11:27AM

Larry Wildman wrote:

Re Mata, Mourinho didn't fancy him and he can't really get a look in for the Spanish national side. And the proof of the pudding is in the eating...He has been poor for United.

Mourinho didn't fancy Matic a couple of years ago. DDG couldn't get into the national side...

KH25 · 27-10-2014 11:28AM

BloodBath wrote: »

The first was for dissent, not the foul.

I didn't realise that, cheers. No issues with the red so!

Johner · 27-10-2014 11:30AM

A deserved point in the end for United although still a sickening way to lose 2 points from a Chelsea point of view. As with most I was really impressed with Fellaini, he was popping up in nice positions between our midfield and defence. I think Di Maria struggled a bit with the physicality of Ivanovic but he had the last laugh any way! Top 4 won't be a problem imo, the signs are there that United are starting to gel, it's not perfect yet but this season should be more than enough for top 4 and comfortably. I still think Vlaar would be a good signing in January and then maybe go after Hummels in the summer.

Giggsy11 · 27-10-2014 11:30AM

beno619 wrote: »

Mourinho didn't fancy Matic a couple of years ago. DDG couldn't get into the national side...

It was not Jose, Ancelotti was the manager when Matic was sold and Scolari might be the manager when he was signed.

Johner · 27-10-2014 11:32AM

Gowlasauras Rex wrote: »

Second yellow was a yellow, first was a yellow. Could have been booked for other tackles during the match.
Rightly sent off, not that it mattered when it was the last kick of the game.

Don't think the second was a yellow to be honest, might have deserved it for persistent fouling but an accidental trip with legs crossing shouldn't be a yellow.

beno619 · 27-10-2014 11:32AM

Giggsy11 wrote:

He makes lot of rash and cynical fouls and gets away with it. Yesterday if Rafael made the foul like he did on Januzaj near the box people would have called Rafael an idiot, rash, liability and all the names under sun.

In a nutshell.

its annoying enough when it comes from clueless commentators or ABUâ€™s even more infuriated when it comes from United fans.

beno619 · 27-10-2014 11:34AM

Giggsy11 wrote:

It was not Jose, Ancelotti was the manager when Matic was sold and Scolari might be the manager when he was signed.

Mourinho signed him and never played him.

BloodBath · 27-10-2014 11:34AM

Johner wrote: »

Don't think the second was a yellow to be honest, might have deserved it for persistent fouling but an accidental trip with legs crossing shouldn't be a yellow.

Who said it was an accident? Top players like Ivanovic know how to skirt around the rules and how to foul to make it look accidental.

Regardless it's a yellow.

The Moldy Gowl · 27-10-2014 11:35AM

Johner wrote: »

Don't think the second was a yellow to be honest, might have deserved it for persistent fouling but an accidental trip with legs crossing shouldn't be a yellow.

Maybe the yellow could have been influenced for the persistent fouling. Could have looked like he did it on purpose. Either way it's not an issue if he had stayed on or not. 2 defenders watched the goal go in.

Johner · 27-10-2014 11:37AM

BloodBath wrote: »

Who said it was an accident? Top players like Ivanovic know how to skirt around the rules and how to foul to make it look accidental.

Regardless it's a yellow.

I think it looked an accident, maybe it wasn't but from what it looked like I thought it was a harsh yellow, that's just my opinion.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - See Mod Warning in OP, 09/11

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