Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

dogbert27 · 02-10-2014 06:15AM

Super-Rush wrote: »

My main problem currently is our work rate without the ball.
=

Watching it last night it looked like when a Basle player had the ball one of our guys would run towards him and then stop 2 yards short.
There was no getting the tackle in and winning possession back.

Equally the problem is when we had possession we didn't have any creativity so we were probably better off without the ball!!

Soft Falling Rain · 02-10-2014 06:40AM

Having slept on it I still can't say that I was encouraged by anything. This looks bigger than merely the loss of Sturridge, I mean it's not as of you can say the team has been unfortunate. They've quite simply been very poor, creating little and when they do, they fluff their lines.

I hate to say it but it feels a morale problem now, as this team is a million miles away from the aggression and confidence of last season.

LuckyLloyd · 02-10-2014 06:54AM

Lose at the weekend and the pressure will be intolerable

Fowler87 · 02-10-2014 07:06AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lose at the weekend and the pressure will be intolerable

So will this thread

BenEadir · 02-10-2014 07:11AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lose at the weekend and the pressure will be intolerable

The elephant in the room (probably the dressing room also) is Stevie I'm afraid. Scoring the odd free kick or penalty papers over the fact he's 34 and can't operate at the high tempo pace today's game demands. With Suarez and Sturridge and a year younger Stevie last year opposition were focused on Suarez and Sturridge as Stevie could hit them from distance but without Suarez that specific threat is diminished so opposition teams are much more on the front foot and Stevie's lack of pace is being found out game after game after game.

The whole team tempo is dropping closer to Stevies own tempo. If BR doesn't recognise and address this issue the problem will continue and despite FSG being long term responsible owners the pressure will eventually come on him if top 4 looks like a lost cause.

33/34 year old mid-fielders in top 6 PL or CL teams are rare. Stevie has neither the game to be a Pirlo type player nor the engine/athleticism to be a Giggs type.

Can we really afford to waste an entire season tip toeing around this issue?

Dickerty · 02-10-2014 07:23AM

BenEadir wrote: »

The elephant in the room (probably the dressing room also) is Stevie I'm afraid. Scoring the odd free kick or penalty papers over the fact he's 34 and can't operate at the high tempo pace today's game demands. With Suarez and Sturridge and a year younger Stevie last year opposition were focused on Suarez and Sturridge as Stevie could hit them from distance but without Suarez that specific threat is diminished so opposition teams are much more on the front foot and Stevie's lack of pace is being found out game after game after game.

The whole team tempo is dropping closer to Stevies own tempo. If BR doesn't recognise and address this issue the problem will continue and despite FSG being long term responsible owners the pressure will eventually come on him if top 4 looks like a lost cause.

33/34 year old mid-fielders in top 6 PL or CL teams are rare. Stevie has neither the game to be a Pirlo type player nor the engine/athleticism to be a Giggs type.

Can we really afford to waste an entire season tip toeing around this issue?

I can't argue with that, good post. I do think that once we have Can and Allen fit, we will rest/drop Stevie more often, particularly away from home.
But would Rodgers be brave enough to shop for his long term replacement in Jan? Khedira or Witzel?

LuckyLloyd · 02-10-2014 08:09AM

BenEadir wrote: »

The elephant in the room (probably the dressing room also) is Stevie I'm afraid. Scoring the odd free kick or penalty papers over the fact he's 34 and can't operate at the high tempo pace today's game demands. With Suarez and Sturridge and a year younger Stevie last year opposition were focused on Suarez and Sturridge as Stevie could hit them from distance but without Suarez that specific threat is diminished so opposition teams are much more on the front foot and Stevie's lack of pace is being found out game after game after game.

The whole team tempo is dropping closer to Stevies own tempo. If BR doesn't recognise and address this issue the problem will continue and despite FSG being long term responsible owners the pressure will eventually come on him if top 4 looks like a lost cause.

33/34 year old mid-fielders in top 6 PL or CL teams are rare. Stevie has neither the game to be a Pirlo type player nor the engine/athleticism to be a Giggs type.

Can we really afford to waste an entire season tip toeing around this issue?

Is it Gerrard's fault that the team as a collective seems to have forgotten how to press effectively?
Is it Gerrard's fault that the team as a collective seems unable to defend set pieces confidently and competently?
Is it all Gerrard's fault that the back four and goalkeeper seem to be lacking cohesiveness and positional awareness?
Is it Gerrard's fault that we look utterly limp going forward in the absence of Suarez and Sturridge?
Is it Gerrard's fault that we look mentally deflated at present?
Is it Gerrard's fault that we had a supposedly important center back of the future storm out of Anfield on derby day?
Is it Gerrard's fault that the club spent ~£20 on Lazar Markovic leaving us short on necessary quality in his own position?
Finally, is it Gerrard's fault he keeps getting selected whether he looks in form / out of form / tired / tactically unable?

There is an elephant in the room alright on the basis of the last few months, and Gerrard it ain't.

02-10-2014 08:15AM

Yep, it's all on Rodgers tbh.

He brought the players in, picks the team and organises the tactics.

How he can't organise a defense is incredible, real amateur stuff.

daithijjj · 02-10-2014 08:17AM

People who think Gerrard is the issue need to ask other questions imo.

If the club had purchased players that could start over Gerrard in the last 2 years we wouldnt have to play Gerrard as much. We seem to have an obsession with buying mids that dont operate in the defensive side of the game. People will say we can play others there but they arent any good at it either.

Players needed to be brought in that both removed some responsibility from Gerrard and that would or should have been coupled with the older player being phased out. Neither has happened. We HAVE to play Gerrard and thats an indictment on recruitment policy

As for other players not performing. The obvious ones are playing the exact same way as last season namely Mig/Skrt/Johnson. They werent exposed as much due to the goals scored. But they havent learned anything or tightened up in any way.

Again, thats a problem down to management/coaching/recruitment. We cant point at players for this stuff anymore imo, the only ones that can do anything about it are looking on from the dugout.

The only way we get out of this right now imo is to get back to the 11 that started last season as much as possible. Glaring issue we arent playing as a team and down to too many new bodies. Harping on about it but thats reality and what i expected. Only signings i wanted in the summer were a starting DM, some full back cover, a CB and competition for migs. This will be a long season for Liverpool. We bought good players but not the right positions to change what was wrong from last season.

Optimus Caesar · 02-10-2014 08:17AM

BenEadir wrote: »

The elephant in the room (probably the dressing room also) is Stevie I'm afraid. Scoring the odd free kick or penalty papers over the fact he's 34 and can't operate at the high tempo pace today's game demands. With Suarez and Sturridge and a year younger Stevie last year opposition were focused on Suarez and Sturridge as Stevie could hit them from distance but without Suarez that specific threat is diminished so opposition teams are much more on the front foot and Stevie's lack of pace is being found out game after game after game.

The whole team tempo is dropping closer to Stevies own tempo. If BR doesn't recognise and address this issue the problem will continue and despite FSG being long term responsible owners the pressure will eventually come on him if top 4 looks like a lost cause.

33/34 year old mid-fielders in top 6 PL or CL teams are rare. Stevie has neither the game to be a Pirlo type player nor the engine/athleticism to be a Giggs type.

Can we really afford to waste an entire season tip toeing around this issue?

Good post and I somewhat agree that Gerrard (at this point in his career) is not the man to play in front of a defence that is struggling but do we have anyone better at the club right now? I don't believe so and that isn't Gerrard's fault. He isn't responsible for going out and signing players so the fact that we have no one better for that role isn't down to him.

OwaynOTT · 02-10-2014 08:19AM

Mignolet
Manquillo Skrtel Lovern Moreno
Lucas Henderson Lallana
sterling Borin Balotelli

That's what I would like to see at the weekend.

The much maligned Borini hasn't really done it for us and at this stage I doubt he will ever come good but he can still offer movement, energy and is very decent in fast interplay which is where the team hurt everyone last year and it's missing this year. I also think he can help Mario out.

Lallana I like and he looks better and better. Very good on the ball and is playing better than Couthinho this season.

Gerrard needs to be 'rested'. Lucas isn't ideal but it should at least be tried. Lucas might give away stupid frees but Gerrad isn't even getting close enough to do that.

Skrtel and Lovern are the best CB pairing now that Sakho is injured and in fairness they didn't give away too much last night or against Everton. The team in front of them just can't score at the moment.

Last year the defence was a shambles at times but it's actually better this year in the few opening games. Not giving away as much shots on goal and not conceding as many. The problem is the team isn't scoring and more worrying is that, woodwork isn't playing a part.
They just aren't creating chances.
Mario on his own is making enough runs but to add to that, there isn't enough movement do ing from behind him either.
Henderson has to sit deeper to provide cover and help.
Markovic doesn't stay wide enough and when he cuts in, he isn't being founds whether he is hiding or his teammates have no faith in him, I don't know. He was better last night.
Lallana can get beyond the strikers and offer that little bit of closing down.
Borini has movement, and it will create space for the others to exploit and who knows maybe Borini might even score an odd goal or two.
Sterling needs to be relieved of the onus to provide that bit of magic.

Allen and Can can't come back quick enough. Big mistake not signing another midfielder in the summer that offers some discipline, steel and aggression.
The team is missing aggression, the desire to bust a lung and throw their body in the line. To get the crowd going and lift theirs teammates.

I hate to say this but I think the game at the weekend is a must win. A loss and the pressure will really mount.

02-10-2014 08:24AM

Gerrard won't be dropped.

If fit he'll play every game this season. Possibly next season too.

benny79 · 02-10-2014 08:25AM

I agree Gerrard should be dropped cause he's not playing well as should any player!(but will never happen cause he's stevie G!) but he's not to blame at the end of the day buck stops with manager! we can't defend set pieces which should be a given in the standard they place at! ie PL, and we bought too many players just like spurs last season and what I feared would happen.
We had a poor defense last season which cost us the league IMO, and this season its worse to me that's unacceptable!

It should be Quality over Quantity..

BenEadir · 02-10-2014 08:33AM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it Gerrard's fault that the team as a collective seems to have forgotten how to press effectively?

Partly. He's the captain and sets the tone. If he's not pressing it sets the standard for others.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it Gerrard's fault that the team as a collective seems unable to defend set pieces confidently and competently?

No, that's down to poor defensive coaching, BR's big weakness. He needs to get someone in who knows how to organise a defence, Steve Clarke has been mentioned.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it all Gerrard's fault that the back four and goalkeeper seem to be lacking cohesiveness and positional awareness?

See comment above, same issue.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it Gerrard's fault that we look utterly limp going forward in the absence of Suarez and Sturridge?

No but his lack of tempo is contributing to that problem.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it Gerrard's fault that we look mentally deflated at present?

Partly because the rest of the team are having to cover for his lack of movement and I'd say they are all getting pissed off with it but no one can say anything because of who he is.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it Gerrard's fault that we had a supposedly important center back of the future storm out of Anfield on derby day?

No but what's that got to do with anything?

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Is it Gerrard's fault that the club spent ~£20 on Lazar Markovic leaving us short on necessary quality in his own position?

No and I don't think anyone suggested it is.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Finally, is it Gerrard's fault he keeps getting selected whether he looks in form / out of form / tired / tactically unable?

Yes, partially. He's captain of the club and is experienced enough to know that dropping him is a difficult thing for BR to do. What a gesture it would be if Stevie dropped a few comments that he was feeling a bit leggy after playing every game last season and the World Cup etc. That would open the door for BR to rotate him. I firmly believe we can get another year or two out of Stevie if he only plays home CL and PL games and very few away games. At Anfield, in general, teams will give us a lot more space and time on the ball which will enable Stevie to continue to be effective but away from home, in general, it's a very different story and he doesn't have the legs any more.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

There is an elephant in the room alright on the basis of the last few months, and Gerrard it ain't.

Your love for the man is admirable but ultimately blinding your objectivity.

Harry Palmr · 02-10-2014 08:36AM

The love in between Rodgers and Gerrard is going to be the formers downfall if it continues, the latters position I understand (except on the pitch!) as he is desperate to eke out yet another year and another contract extension. Why Rodgers wants to keep him playing is far less explicable. The manager is being taken for a ride.

murpho999 · 02-10-2014 08:39AM

I don't get the Gerrard bashing (That has been going on for a number of years now).

He's our best person to deliver crosses from set pieces, best free kick and penalty taker and I feel he's adapted to his more defensive role quite well.

There's a lot more wrong with this team than Gerrard and I don't know why people keep harping on about it.

Team confidence is shot and morale is low.

In a way, I'm fascinated by it as it's a true test for Rodgers and at the end of this we will know what sort of manager we have.

SlickRic · 02-10-2014 08:43AM

Gerrard is no different to what he was last year, and you're fooling yourself if you think differently.

last season the coaching staff and player obviously identified a role for him, and a system where we could get the best out of his major attributes. that role has remained the same. he is still the "quarterback", and he's playing the role pretty similarly to last season.

the difference is we don't have the forward play of Sturridge and Suarez, every goal we concede this season takes on greater significance than last season as a result, and you're getting the performances and results you're seeing now.

Neville put it decently last night. we don't have an identity right now. last year we were a pressing, counter-attacking machine. we're neither of those things this season yet, and we're not a possession team either.

it's a mess.

taking Gerrard out will solve nothing. more intensity, Henderson further up the pitch more often, Sturridge back, and an ability to defend balls into the box, and you'll be getting somewhere.

Tipsy McSwagger · 02-10-2014 08:45AM

If its true Coutinho refused to shake Rodgers hand last night I wouldn't blame him one bit. He gets subbed in every game he plays after an hour or so while certain other players who are playing shyte are untouchable.

Harry Palmr · 02-10-2014 08:46AM

murpho999 wrote: »

I don't get the Gerrard bashing (That has been going on for a number of years now).

He's our best person to deliver crosses from set pieces, best free kick and penalty taker and I feel he's adapted to his more defensive role quite well.

There's a lot more wrong with this team than Gerrard and I don't know why people keep harping on about it.

Team confidence is shot and morale is low.

In a way, I'm fascinated by it as it's a true test for Rodgers and at the end of this we will know what sort of manager we have.

It not so much Gerrard bashing as Rodgers being in thrall to one player who is visibly ageing and slowing who has a critical role within the side. If anyone else in the middle was so ineffective, more people would be asking questions but as its Gerrard and he can still take a dead ball (though they were rubbish last night) and spray the odd pass he gets a free pass.

Yes Rodgers is coming up well short right now and the weakness in that midfield position is a large contributory factor. Imagine having a good player for that role there rather than what we have.

SlickRic · 02-10-2014 08:47AM

BenEadir wrote: »

Partly. He's the captain and sets the tone. If he's not pressing it sets the standard for others.

this is part of people's misunderstanding of Gerrard's role.

his role is not to set the tone in terms of pressing. rightly or wrongly, his role is to be our playmaker in front of the back 4. he's not there to press. he's there to sweep and start attacks.

also, making him press relentlessly would be highlighting one of his current weaknesses - his mobility.

if you're expecting Gerrard to press like Henderson, you're going to be disappointed for a long time.

Charlie19 · 02-10-2014 08:50AM

Tipsy McSwagger wrote: »

If its true Coutinho refused to shake Rodgers hand last night I wouldn't blame him one bit. He gets subbed in every game he plays after an hour or so while certain other players who are playing shyte are untouchable.

He didn't shake hands but its not like he left Rodgers hanging, like a lot of players last night, Couthinio was poor and rightly subbed.

Harry Palmr · 02-10-2014 08:51AM

SlickRic wrote: »

taking Gerrard out will solve nothing. more intensity, Henderson further up the pitch more often, Sturridge back, and an ability to defend balls into the box, and you'll be getting somewhere.

Why do think Hendo is stuck where he is? To protect Gerrard, what a waste!
Get Gerrard off the pitch, except that won't happen will it? Last night without any prompting Rodgers was singing his praises.

NEDDURC · 02-10-2014 08:56AM

Anyone who thinks Gerrard is playing well is just being ridiculous now.

He's making a number of obvious mistakes in every game now that are leading to clear chances for the opposition.

His free and corner taking was poor last night.

His work rate is terrible. Keep your eye on him when he doesn't have the ball. He's walking back and letting attackers run by him in defence.

Watch the first 10 minutes of last night. He came looking for the ball off the centre backs like he's supposed to but every time just played it back to them!! Then he just stopped coming looking for it after that.

In summary, he is not controlling the play and he's poor defensively. I'd like to see Allen / Lucas / Can given a chance in there soon and rest him. Not likely to happen but badly needed.

02-10-2014 08:58AM

If people think our main problem is the sweeper role then they have an agenda.

Our whole defensive issue is the problem and has been since Rodgers took over.

He was blessed with incredible goalscorers last season and it somewhat masked the mess in defence.

This season if left as is will see us concededing another 50 or so goals whilst scoring substantially less.

Failure to address the defensive unit as a whole will ultimately see Rodgers getting the sack

Gbear · 02-10-2014 09:03AM

Sir Gallagher wrote: »

and Can, which was one of the more baffling purchases of the summer.

A very highly rated and extremely versatile young midfielder is a baffling signing?

daithijjj wrote: »

People who think Gerrard is the issue need to ask other questions imo.

If the club had purchased players that could start over Gerrard in the last 2 years we wouldnt have to play Gerrard as much. We seem to have an obsession with buying mids that dont operate in the defensive side of the game. People will say we can play others there but they arent any good at it either.

Players needed to be brought in that both removed some responsibility from Gerrard and that would or should have been coupled with the older player being phased out. Neither has happened. We HAVE to play Gerrard and thats an indictment on recruitment policy.

We saw with Sahin that the club wasn't willing to bring players in to compete for Gerrard's spot (what an absolute godsend he'd be to this team).
That's the clubs fault, even if Gerrard put pressure on them to do it.

Maybe Gerrard simply has too much power and clout at the club and now there's not much we can do to stop that without causing a giant ****storm.

It's possibly a bit unfair to criticise the club for not showing any balls in this matter, but that's certainly what it looks like from the outside.

Phasing out Gerrard was always going to be the club and Brendan Rodgers' biggest task from last season onwards. So far they're failing in that task. Badly.
It's not like having a winger or a left back who aren't quite up to snuff. It's a large component of the spine of the team and it's massively influential in the way we play.

rarnes1 wrote: »

If people think our main problem is the sweeper role then they have an agenda.

Our whole defensive issue is the problem and has been since Rodgers took over.

He was blessed with incredible goalscorers last season and it somewhat masked the mess in defence.

But part of what that attack (and it wasn't just 2 players playing well, but 5) masked was Gerrard.

When a team loses the ball in midfield, can't press properly, leaves huge gaps all over the shop, those are all defensive problems that have nothing to do with the back 5.

Nerdlingr · 02-10-2014 09:08AM

murpho999 wrote: »

He's our best person to deliver crosses from set pieces

His set piece delivery has been shocking this season. And again last night was no better. Coutinho had to take over from him after about the third free kick he over/under hit.

Markovic shouldnt be in the starting 11 for a game like that - dont know why lallana wasnt playing. Put out your best 11, win the game and then makes changes if you want. Markovic has done nothing to warrant a place in the team.

The whole team was very poor last night. Nobody was grabbing hold of the game and driving us on. Basel were very ordinary and were there for the taking. Its one step forwards two steps back at the moment.

02-10-2014 09:09AM

I said it last year but if a manager can't make big decisions like dropping ANY player then what the hell are they managing?

Wouldn't bother most top managers in the world.

Harry Palmr · 02-10-2014 09:12AM

rarnes1 wrote: »

If people think our main problem is the sweeper role then they have an agenda.

Our whole defensive issue is the problem and has been since Rodgers took over.

He was blessed with incredible goalscorers last season and it somewhat masked the mess in defence.

This season if left as is will see us concededing another 50 or so goals whilst scoring substantially less.

Failure to address the defensive unit as a whole will ultimately see Rodgers getting the sack

The guy at the base of the midfield is part of the defence as is everyone ahead of him! That is a general failing this season as you or someone mentioned above - lack of pressing high up. The lack of pressing in the centre is down to the player who occupies the centre and that player every week is Gerrard who is just not up to it, he cannot cover the miles required to be effective.

Gbear wrote: »

A very highly rated and extremely versatile young midfielder is a baffling signing?

We saw with Sahin that the club wasn't willing to bring players in to compete for Gerrard's spot (what an absolute godsend he'd be to this team).
That's the clubs fault, even if Gerrard put pressure on them to do it.

Maybe Gerrard simply has too much power and clout at the club and now there's not much we can do to stop that without causing a giant ****storm.

It's possibly a bit unfair to criticise the club for not showing any balls in this matter, but that's certainly what it looks like from the outside.

Phasing out Gerrard was always going to be the club and Brendan Rodgers' biggest task from last season onwards. So far they're failing in that task. Badly.

It's not like having a winger or a left back who aren't quite up to snuff. It's a large component of the spine of the team and it's massively influential in the way we play.

But part of what that attack (and it wasn't just 2 players playing well, but 5) masked was Gerrard.

When a team loses the ball in midfield, can't press properly, leaves huge gaps all over the shop, those are all defensive problems that have nothing to do with the back 5.

If the manager is scared of making a big decision he might as well leave. Either he is scared of making the change or he really doesn't think one needs making - either way its not good news.

NukaCola · 02-10-2014 09:13AM

Its fairly obvious we have a problem in defence. How it hasn't been addressed is worrying not because we wont be able to outscore everyone like last season, but because it was left this long without being properly addressed.

SG deep lying role isn't really a traditional DM role. He hasn't the mobility to cover that ground anyway. We dont really play with a DM and maybe that should have been addressed.

If people can remember when BR first took over, Joe Allen was played as a DM and done very well there. Many people may disagree but I think the role SG is in as a bit of a luxury to fit him in. Teams boss the middle against us too easy.

A formation change and few role changes need to be made and hopefully BR does this sooner rather than later.

Alonso77 · 02-10-2014 09:15AM

NEDDURC wrote: »

Anyone who thinks Gerrard is playing well is just being ridiculous now.

He's making a number of obvious mistakes in every game now that are leading to clear chances for the opposition.

His free and corner taking was poor last night.

His work rate is terrible. Keep your eye on him when he doesn't have the ball. He's walking back and letting attackers run by him in defence.

Watch the first 10 minutes of last night. He came looking for the ball off the centre backs like he's supposed to but every time just played it back to them!! Then he just stopped coming looking for it after that.

In summary, he is not controlling the play and he's poor defensively. I'd like to see Allen / Lucas / Can given a chance in there soon and rest him. Not likely to happen but badly needed.

This has become really glaring in recent games and its painful to see. Gerrard never had the discipline to be a defensive midfielder even in his prime so I cant understand how he is expected to have suddenly developed a mastery of this position in his twilight years. This coupled with the fact his legs have gone only reinforces how unsuitable he is for the role.

Liverpool FC Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 2014 - Mod Note in OP, 1/09

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