Ukraine: As it happens.

InTheTrees · 03-09-2014 03:47AM

There's still conscription in Russia. All men have to join the army for a year sometime between the ages of 18-24.

The Russian army is notoriously badly paid and under equipped.

The Ukrainians are probably even worse, but if the west steps in and helps things could change.

Something else to consider is how this whole thing began. Protests in kiev. Presumably a Russian occupation would bring even more Ukrainians out onto the streets so what does Russia plan to quell that?

Machine gunning Ukrainians on the streets of Kiev? Really?

And meanwhile we all look on and do nothing at all? Is that really how its going to go do you think?

InTheTrees · 03-09-2014 03:48AM

deco nate wrote: »

So, do you Think that the Russians are the good guys?

no.

deco nate · 03-09-2014 03:51AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

no. Why?

Because of you're highlight of the post you made before the last, that's why I ask.
I could not make head nor tails of it.
Edit:see I'm letting ya now I did it... Ah the ol ninja Edit! Lol

WakeUp · 03-09-2014 04:21AM

V_Moth wrote: »

Calling any group of soldiers that is very unfair in my opinion. Have to bear in mind that the Ukrainian Army in its 25 year existence has never been involved in anything other than Annual Exercises, resulting in a lack of combat experience for senior personnel.

If reports are to be believed, quite a few of the "Novorossiyan" militias/soldiers have combat experience from Dagestan, Chechnya and even Afghanistan and it seems this has been one of the main factors in turning the tide recently. Supplies from Russia will have helped, as will taking over abandoned equipment from the retreating Ukrainian Army.

The main question is, how far will the Novorossiyan's try and push this advance?

Youre entitled to your opinion and thats fair enough. I would however disagree. Im not sure how far the rebels are going to push it who can know for sure.

InTheTrees wrote: »

Wow. Its lucky my parents generation weren't like you in world war two.

You'd just quit and run?

:eek:

yeah cause this is just like world war 2 isnt it. nuclear armed superpowers at loggerheads. werent like you Id just quit and run?.:D good lad. ask my boll0x how about that?..

stevedublin · 03-09-2014 08:52AM

Permanent ceasefire in Donbass announced.
Not sure how this would affect future of the region, since it is split between two opposing forces - will borders have to be redrawn?

Timberrrrrrrr · 03-09-2014 09:41AM

Russia And Ukraine Agree 'Permanent Ceasefire

ht tp://news.sky.com/story/1329292/russia-and-ukraine-agree-permanent-ceasefire

Russian President Vladimir Putin and his Ukraine counterpart Petro Poroshenko have agreed a ceasefire to end the conflict in Ukraine, Kiev says.

"Mutual understanding was achieved concerning the steps which will enable the establishment of peace," a statement from Mr Poroshenko's press office said, after he and President Putin spoke by telephone.

Despite the announcement a deal had been reached, a spokesman for Mr Putin declared the deal was not technically a ceasefire as Russia was not party to the Ukraine conflict.

Made me LOL

Elmer Blooker · 03-09-2014 10:25AM

breaking news! I just heard on SKY news a few mins ago that rebels in Eastern Ukraine "look like soldiers" !!
What more evidence is needed that the Russian invasion of Europe has begun?

comongethappy · 03-09-2014 10:29AM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

breaking
What more evidence is needed that the Russian invasion of Europe has begun?

Do you need more evidence?

If so your really on your own there!

Peist2007 · 03-09-2014 01:05PM

Good move by the Ukrainians. They were getting their arses handed to them. I would say the Americans are completely annoyed with how incompetent they have been in this.

Edit: both sides already backtracking.

From the Guardian:

One adviser to a top Ukrainian official told the Guardian that the announcement had been "a brainfart"

Clowns

loughside · 03-09-2014 04:27PM

About time France pulled the plug on supplying this bloodthirsty fascist regime..

Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

France has said conditions are "not right" for delivery of the first of two Mistral assault navy ships to Russia.

President Francois Hollande's office blamed Moscow's recent actions in Ukraine.

Hande hoche! · 03-09-2014 04:51PM

loughside wrote: »

About time France pulled the plug on supplying this bloodthirsty fascist regime..

Ukraine crisis: France halts warship delivery to Russia

France has said conditions are "not right" for delivery of the first of two Mistral assault navy ships to Russia.

President Francois Hollande's office blamed Moscow's recent actions in Ukraine.

I'm sure the Baltic leadership will be happy.

Egginacup · 04-09-2014 11:29AM

Gatling wrote: »

They wrote a letter pre iraq invasion about what most people already knew ,

How does effect the full on invasion of Ukraine by russia

If Russia has invaded Ukraine (which it hasn't) as stated by idiots in the West and their moronic apologists then wouldn't the first order of business be to wipe out Ukrainian missile and artillery batteries? Wouldn't the airspace over Ukraine be closed by Russia causing all foreign representatives (diplomats, aides de camp, business persons, etc) to be stuck at airports frantically trying to get in touch with their superiors on their sat phones? Wouldn't roadblocks be set up all over the place? Wouldn't the 800,000 Novorussian refugees that fled the Ukrainian shelling to seek sanctuary in Russia now be streaming back to their homes?

Putin refused requests from the southern and eastern Ukrainian regions to join Russia.

If this man is so bent on invading Ukraine then why would he refuse such a request?

Because THERE IS NO INVASION AND THERE IS NO DESIRE TO RECONSTRUCT THE SOVIET UNION.

Golovkin p4p best · 04-09-2014 11:39AM

Egginacup wrote: »

If Russia has invaded Ukraine (which it hasn't) as stated by idiots in the West and their moronic apologists then wouldn't the first order of business be to wipe out Ukrainian missile and artillery batteries? Wouldn't the airspace over Ukraine be closed by Russia causing all foreign representatives (diplomats, aides de camp, business persons, etc) to be stuck at airports frantically trying to get in touch with their superiors on their sat phones? Wouldn't roadblocks be set up all over the place? Wouldn't the 800,000 Novorussian refugees that fled the Ukrainian shelling to seek sanctuary in Russia now be streaming back to their homes?

Putin refused requests from the southern and eastern Ukrainian regions to join Russia.

If this man is so bent on invading Ukraine then why would he refuse such a request?

Because THERE IS NO INVASION AND THERE IS NO DESIRE TO RECONSTRUCT THE SOVIET UNION.

There are simply too many unknowns to come to firm conclusions about this.

gandalf · 04-09-2014 11:40AM

Egginacup wrote: »

If Russia has invaded Ukraine (which it hasn't) as stated by idiots in the West and their moronic apologists then wouldn't the first order of business be to wipe out Ukrainian missile and artillery batteries? Wouldn't the airspace over Ukraine be closed by Russia causing all foreign representatives (diplomats, aides de camp, business persons, etc) to be stuck at airports frantically trying to get in touch with their superiors on their sat phones? Wouldn't roadblocks be set up all over the place? Wouldn't the 800,000 Novorussian refugees that fled the Ukrainian shelling to seek sanctuary in Russia now be streaming back to their homes?

Putin refused requests from the southern and eastern Ukrainian regions to join Russia.

If this man is so bent on invading Ukraine then why would he refuse such a request?

Because THERE IS NO INVASION AND THERE IS NO DESIRE TO RECONSTRUCT THE SOVIET UNION.

The evidence says otherwise Egg :rolleyes:

http://news.sky.com/story/1329691/sky-films-troops-in-russian-gear-in-ukraine

"Russian military expert Mark Galeotti examined the Sky News images and noted the white ribbons on the lead jeep and white armbands, which he said Russian security forces often use to distinguish their men."

http://www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence-russia-lying-about-ukraine-2014-8

"NATO released a series of satellite images on Thursday showing what a top general described as "Russian combat soldiers, equipped with sophisticated heavy weaponry ... operating inside Ukraine’s sovereign territory."

According to a statement posted on the NATO website, the photos "confirmed what NATO and its Allies had been seeing for weeks from other sources." This is a direct contradiction of recent statements made by Kremlin officials and a pro-Russian separatist leader in Ukraine who said all of the Russian troops who had entered the country were on "their vacations" and assisting the separatists on a volunteer basis."

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/russia-expands-war-in-eastern-ukraine-amid-web-of-lies-a-989290.html

"Moscow has continued to deny direct involvement in the fighting in eastern Ukraine. But evidence to the contrary continues to mount. NATO says up to 1,000 Russian soldiers have joined the fray and the pro-Russian separatists have made a remarkable turnaround."

http://theweek.com/speedreads/index/267200/speedreads-russia-is-steadily-invading-ukraine-mounting-evidence-shows

"Time's Simon Shuster suggests that Russian President Vladimir Putin is going to have to acknowledge invading Eastern Ukraine. (Russia already seized Crimea from Ukraine in the spring.) If the mounting evidence from Ukraine, NATO, the U.S., and Poland doesn't force Putin's hand, his own citizens might. The mothers of captured Russian soldiers are starting to publicly complain, and Russian online media is buzzing with rumors about casualties from Ukraine, Shuster says. The Russian body bags, he adds, "are likely to force Putin either to come clean and admit his country's intervention in Ukraine, or to face the growing public resentment over his denials."

http://www.channel4.com/news/have-soldiers-selfies-given-away-russias-role-in-ukraine

"Russia continues to deny its soldiers are operating officially in Ukraine. Russian soldiers have been rushing to delete information on Instagram that may tell a different story."

https://bellingcat.com/news/mena/2014/08/27/revealed-around-40-russian-troops-from-pskov-died-in-the-ukraine-reinforcement-sent-in/

"The instagram account of a Russian soldier who has recently returned to base from fighting in the Ukraine reveals the rough number of casualties in 76th Airbourne regiment from Pskov and proves Russian activity on Ukrainian territory."

http://businessnewsandwire.com/russian-soldiers-selfies-were-taken-in-ukraine-located-thanks-to-gps/

"A Russian soldier may be in some hot water these days after getting a little carried away with his smart phone. He wasn’t doing anything that others wouldn’t do. He was simply posting a couple of selfies and talking about how calming his day was. However, he didn’t realize that his GPS location feature was on. The pictures revealed that he was posting from Ukraine. Although it’s fairly known that Russian soldiers are assisting Ukrainian nationals who are rebelling against the Ukrainian government, the Russian army denies that its troops have crossed the border."

gandalf · 04-09-2014 11:45AM

Golovkin p4p best wrote: »

There are simply too many unknowns to come to firm conclusions about this.

Ah but Egg has been consistently on message the whole of this thread

pablomakaveli · 04-09-2014 11:46AM

Egginacup wrote: »

If Russia has invaded Ukraine (which it hasn't) as stated by idiots in the West and their moronic apologists then wouldn't the first order of business be to wipe out Ukrainian missile and artillery batteries? Wouldn't the airspace over Ukraine be closed by Russia causing all foreign representatives (diplomats, aides de camp, business persons, etc) to be stuck at airports frantically trying to get in touch with their superiors on their sat phones? Wouldn't roadblocks be set up all over the place? Wouldn't the 800,000 Novorussian refugees that fled the Ukrainian shelling to seek sanctuary in Russia now be streaming back to their homes?

Putin refused requests from the southern and eastern Ukrainian regions to join Russia.

If this man is so bent on invading Ukraine then why would he refuse such a request?

Because THERE IS NO INVASION AND THERE IS NO DESIRE TO RECONSTRUCT THE SOVIET UNION.

The Russians are taking a softly softly approach. They're slowly increasing the pressure on Ukraine and pushing the boundary to see what they get away with. They can slowly build their presence in Ukraine to a point where intervening on the Ukrainians behalf would be a very difficult situation.

If Russia had gone in all guns blazing it would have provoked a swifter and stronger for Ukraine and made things more difficult for Russia.

It's pretty clear to see what Putin is doing.

Autonomous Cowherd · 04-09-2014 11:53AM

Say for arguments sake the United Kingdom government started shelling and bombing republican villages north of the border...Just say.

Say they had thus massacred several thousand - or a mere two hundred innocents,to make it pro rata by population: 14 million as to 1 million, given that at least 3000 if not far far more have been killed in Eastern Ukraine by their own government - of those villagers who just happened by culture, creed and political bent to lean towards the reunification of Ireland.

Now, do you think that the Irish army, such as it is, might not venture north of the border to try and protect those ''nationalist'' - leaning citizens of Northern Ireland?

(Refer to Operation or Exercise Armageddon, a suitably lyrical name for what the Irish government in 1969 considered doing to protect nationalist/Catholic communities at the start of the ''Troubles''..)

I don't quite get why people would be surprised at there being Russian soldiers on the ground in pro-Russian leaning territories that are being shelled within an inch of their lives by Ukraine...

comongethappy · 04-09-2014 11:54AM

gandalf wrote: »

Ah but Egg has been consistently on message the whole of this thread

Sometimes there is a slip.

It really depends who is covering what shift when "he" posts!

Autonomous Cowherd · 04-09-2014 11:55AM

comongethappy wrote: »

Sometimes there is a slip.

It really depends who is covering what shift when "he" posts!

That kind of paranoia is not healthy.

Elmer Blooker · 04-09-2014 11:57AM

Because THERE IS NO INVASION AND THERE IS NO DESIRE TO RECONSTRUCT THE SOVIET UNION.

What about the "invasion" on August 15th as "witnessed" by that smug, self-righteous, sanctimonious rag The Guardian ? There must have been hundreds of "invasions" of Ukraine since last March - all the evidence is on YouTube

and if that evidence is good enough for Obama then its good enough for me!

Gatling · 04-09-2014 11:59AM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

What about the "invasion" on August 15th as "witnessed" by that smug, self-righteous, sanctimonious rag The Guardian ? There must have been hundreds of "invasions" of Ukraine since last March - all the evidence is on YouTube and if that evidence is good enough for Obama then its good enough for me!

Oh yeah there only on holiday wink wink nudge nudge

Peist2007 · 04-09-2014 12:29PM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

That kind of paranoia is not healthy.

It's a tactic used to discredit the other side who are putting far too much logic in front of them.

comongethappy · 04-09-2014 12:35PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

It's a tactic used to discredit the other side who are putting far too much logic in front of them.

Unbearable alright.

Troll a/c says there is no invasion despite the world including the Kremlin saying there is.

Top-Gun logic there.... Impossible to defeat.

Peist2007 · 04-09-2014 12:41PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Unbearable alright.

Troll a/c says there is no invasion despite the world including the Kremlin saying there is.

Top-Gun logic there.... Impossible to defeat.

I dont think you know what invasion is. Soldiers fighting with the separatists in Eastern Ukraine is one thing. Russian tanks in Kiev and the Russians closing off Ukrainian airspace is an invasion to me.

I find the fact that a few of you literally spend all day every day on this thread repeating yourselves ad nauseum to be very suspicious.

Egginacup · 04-09-2014 12:42PM

comongethappy wrote: »

- The Kremlin said there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
- The rebel leadership say there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
- Russian soldiers families associations say there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

Seems everyone is on the same page except this old guy.

(who bears a grudge against the NSA for declining to hire his private intelligence analysis firm years ago).

They declined to hire his firm in favour of a firm that they could count on to "analyse" bogus intelligence data and give it a seal of approval. A firm that wouldn't have to be told to fix the "facts" to suit the agenda, like poor old Dick Cheney kept having to do until the CIA said "OK there are no WMD in Iraq but we'll say there are."

And it's funny how Kiev says they have been invaded to the press and public but they say they haven't been invaded to the IMF because you can't get IMF funds if you are at war.

Gatling · 04-09-2014 12:44PM

Egginacup wrote: »

They declined to hire his firm in favour of a firm that they could count on to "analyse" bogus intelligence data and give it a seal of approval. A firm that wouldn't have to be told to fix the "facts" to suit the agenda, like poor old Dick Cheney kept having to do until the CIA said "OK there are no WMD in Iraq but we'll say there are."

And it's funny how Kiev says they have been invaded to the press and public but they say they haven't been invaded to the IMF because you can't get IMF funds if you are at war.

And you can back all this up with verified legitimate independent sources

Egginacup · 04-09-2014 12:45PM

Gatling wrote: »

So where does it stop then .

Does eastern Europe and former Soviet states just bow to putin while the rest of us are reminded he's nuclear weapons at his disposal .

The only talking that should be happening is how to permanently remove putin and his bully boy old guard

What "bowing" are you talking about? WTF is all this talk about Putin trying to gobble up the world? What on earth are you on about?

Gatling · 04-09-2014 12:46PM

Egginacup wrote: »

What "bowing" are you talking about? WTF is all this talk about Putin trying to gobble up the world? What on earth are you on about?

Please tell me it's the medication

Egginacup · 04-09-2014 12:49PM

V_Moth wrote: »

Calling any group of soldiers that is very unfair in my opinion. Have to bear in mind that the Ukrainian Army in its 25 year existence has never been involved in anything other than Annual Exercises, resulting in a lack of combat experience for senior personnel.

If reports are to be believed, quite a few of the "Novorossiyan" militias/soldiers have combat experience from Dagestan, Chechnya and even Afghanistan and it seems this has been one of the main factors in turning the tide recently. Supplies from Russia will have helped, as will taking over abandoned equipment from the retreating Ukrainian Army.

The main question is, how far will the Novorossiyan's try and push this advance?

Yeah, your Ukrainian nazi thugs are real brave when they are burning middle-aged men and women to death in buildings in Odessa and beating survivors to death with baseball bats. But not having the guts to engage in a fair fight is somehow understandable as far as you're concerned?

:rolleyes:

Egginacup · 04-09-2014 12:51PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

breaking news! I just heard on SKY news a few mins ago that rebels in Eastern Ukraine "look like soldiers" !!
What more evidence is needed that the Russian invasion of Europe has begun?

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Ukraine: As it happens.

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