Ukraine: As it happens.

WakeUp · 01-09-2014 09:13AM

gandalf wrote: »

I'm not getting angry with you Wakeup and to be fair you are debating this unlike others who just rinse repeat propaganda. I see where you are coming from and yes there is a strong likelihood things will pan out as you describe.

If it does then Putin will be emboldened more and we (Europe) will be facing this situation or worse down the line. If Russia continues on this path then there will be war. Better to stop them now that allow them more time to prepare for a future conflict.

I would prefer like anyone I would think that all of this wasn't happening but it is whatever happens from now on in, war must be avoided. I can see why people feel threatened by what the Russians have done but I can also see it from their point of view to an extent. that doesn't make it right what's happening but it's happening. Putin hasn't interfered with a NATO or EU country and if he did or does that's different then. I don't believe he will do that as if he does that's war. and I don't believe he wants war with us and the Americans. Ukraine the EU and maybe NATO getting involved there that was always going to cause problems we might not agree with it but for the Russians it's a redline for them and it was always going to be.

gandalf · 01-09-2014 09:19AM

WakeUp wrote: »

I would prefer like anyone I would think that all of this wasn't happening but it is whatever happens from now on in, war must be avoided. I can see why people feel threatened by what the Russians have done but I can also see it from their point of view to an extent. that doesn't make it right what's happening but it's happening. Putin hasn't interfered with a NATO or EU country and if he did or does that's different then. I don't believe he will do that as if he does that's war. and I don't believe he wants war with us and the Americans. Ukraine the EU and maybe NATO getting involved there that was always going to cause problems we might not agree with it but for the Russians it's a redline for them and it was always going to be.

But a country blatantly disregarding International Law as Russia has cannot be left to profit from it. I am sure the Chinese are watching this with great interest. If this is allowed to pass they could make a play at Taiwan using the same template and quite rightly say a precedence has been set with the "Ukraine situation". This being left to fester unobstructed is going to have serious consequences down the line either in Europe or in a miscalculation using it as an excuse elsewhere in the world.

comongethappy · 01-09-2014 09:20AM

WakeUp wrote: »

. the Ukrainian army it would appear has been spanked. so what's the plan...

Indeed they are.
The Russian counter offensive has worked a treat.
With the invasion to the sputh & the threat to Mariupol, the modest Ukrainian army is stretched to breaking point.

What's the plan?

Personally - The Kremlin should withdraw all its forces & armour, both covert & overt, including its agents in charge of these self-declared republics & respect the sovereignty of nations.

(Fantasy I know!)

mickmackey1 · 01-09-2014 09:52AM

gandalf wrote: »

But a country blatantly disregarding International Law as Russia has cannot be left to profit from it. I am sure the Chinese are watching this with great interest. If this is allowed to pass they could make a play at Taiwan using the same template and quite rightly say a precedence has been set with the "Ukraine situation". This being left to fester unobstructed is going to have serious consequences down the line either in Europe or in a miscalculation using it as an excuse elsewhere in the world.

Exactly. Just like Blair and Bush are now in the ICC for war crimes against Iraq. Oh actually, no they aren't. Because there's one rule for the West and a different rule for everyone else. Except Putin can't be pushed around so easily.

comongethappy · 01-09-2014 09:57AM

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Exactly. Just like Blair and Bush are now in the ICC for war crimes against Iraq. Oh actually, no they aren't. Because there's one rule for the West and a different rule for everyone else. Except Putin can't be pushed around so easily.

It appears that the exact same rules apply?

Unless Putin is due before the ICC/Hague any day soon?

mickmackey1 · 01-09-2014 10:00AM

comongethappy wrote: »

It appears that the exact same rules apply?

Yes. There are three countries that decide what happens on this planet and the rest of us are pi**ing in the wind.

Autonomous Cowherd · 01-09-2014 10:03AM

I mean for fecks sake, the USA and its cronies have run rampant all across North Africa and the Middle East for years. The shock horror here at the antics of Russia for daring to abort the expansionist Nato plans, or yes even to engage in badness, is all a bit rich. Jeeekers, it's not like we've been living in some democratic paradise on earth, haven't been for ages, if ever. Crikey, Abu Ghraib anyone? Extraordinary Rendition? NSA? Trillions spent on armaments to the detriment of investment in actual people? The saintly whitewash of the west here is a bit tough to stomach. And I am not an apologist for Putin and his war mongering either.
As for the Ukraine it is the Ukrainian army that have been raining down shells, white phosphorus and other weapons of destruction on the citizens within their own borders. Primarily Russian speaking citizens, and people who lean towards Russia, but still THEIR OWN CITIZENS. The level of carnage there is completely under-reported. Nor have I heard a squeak about MH17 being proven against Russia, not since too many other plausible theories arose. It's all a flipping mess.

comongethappy · 01-09-2014 10:10AM

Autonomous Cowherd wrote: »

It's all a flipping mess.

You got that right.

Its enough to make you wish Putin would just withdraw his forces & leave Ukraine alone.

srsly78 · 01-09-2014 10:34AM

gandalf wrote: »

But a country blatantly disregarding International Law as Russia has cannot be left to profit from it. I am sure the Chinese are watching this with great interest. If this is allowed to pass they could make a play at Taiwan using the same template and quite rightly say a precedence has been set with the "Ukraine situation". This being left to fester unobstructed is going to have serious consequences down the line either in Europe or in a miscalculation using it as an excuse elsewhere in the world.

Actually this is what Russia warned about with Kosovo, didn't stop NATO.

gandalf · 01-09-2014 10:35AM

This is on our doorstep and if it gets out of hand WILL effect us all here in Europe. That is why people are concerned with it. No matter what way you package this the major instigator and facilitator of the major violence in the Ukraine is Russia. Without their support a lot of people would not have lost their lives.

01-09-2014 11:16AM

gandalf wrote: »

If you don't stand up to psychopaths like Putin then we (Europe) will pay a far bigger price down the line. I love Putin talking about Strongmen given the cult of personality that he has built up in Russia as one. Europe and the US need to hit Russia with extreme sanctions including isolation in totality from financial markets.

Unfortunately with the strongman personality cult crap going on with Putin the only way to deal with this properly is to call his bluff. It isn`t going to happen and Putin has correctly anticipated this. The way to deal with this would have been for a more United Europe and NATO to told Putin "yeah we believe you that you dont have military forces in Ukraine" and then provide the Ukrainian side with air support. Unfortunately you need to make a strongman look weak and ruin his political support. After all his posing in front of cameras it would ruin his popularity.

And there are clear parallels with what happened pre WW2. The difference here is Putin has nuclear weapons as he so reminded us.

InTheTrees · 01-09-2014 11:24AM

I imagine the Putin apologists must also approve of isreal declaring another thousand acres of the west bank being Israeli territory.

stevedublin · 01-09-2014 11:34AM

InTheTrees wrote: »

I imagine the Putin apologists must also approve of isreal declaring another thousand acres of the west bank being Israeli territory.

Not a valid comparison, the Palestinians do not want to become part of Isreal, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk are (mostly) pro-Russian.

comongethappy · 01-09-2014 11:48AM

stevedublin wrote: »

Not a valid comparison, the Palestinians do not want to become part of Isreal, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk are (mostly) pro-Russian.

What proof do you have that the majority in those 2 oblasts wish to join the Russian fed?

(Also, though the majority speak Russian as a 1st language, neither are majority Russian ethnically)

InTheTrees · 01-09-2014 12:01PM

stevedublin wrote: »

Not a valid comparison, the Palestinians do not want to become part of Isreal, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk are (mostly) pro-Russian.

Mostly?

Putins doctrine is that you can invade another country if theres any historical dispute over an area.

Gatling · 01-09-2014 12:02PM

stevedublin wrote: »

Not a valid comparison, the Palestinians do not want to become part of Isreal, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk are (mostly) pro-Russian.

Pro Russian / pro West / pro EU

There Ukraine first and foremost let the whole country decide its faith not Russian vision of what Ukraine should be .

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 12:54PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Wax hysterical if you like.

However failing to notice that this whole conflict starts & ends at the desk of Vladi seems like willful blindness.

So the coup in Kiev never happened? I think there is definitely a case of wilful blindness here

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:01PM

Reading the last few pages and it seems most have swallowed the re-writing of this whole issue as starting with Russia's annexation of Crimea. This began when the US helped a coup take place in Kiev. Every action since has run from there. Call me a Russian if you like. I am a Mayo man (who had a rough weekend). But those are the facts.

Gatling · 01-09-2014 01:02PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Reading the last few pages and it seems most have swallowed the re-writing of this whole issue as starting with Russia's annexation of Crimea. This began when the US helped a coup take place in Kiev. Every action since has run from there. Call me a Russian if you like. I am a Mayo man (who had a rough weekend). But those are the facts.

How did America create a coup in Ukraine exactly

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:07PM

Gatling wrote: »

How did America create a coup in Ukraine exactly

Seriously, come on.

As WakeUp has said, all sides are in the wrong here. But re-writing history is wrong and shouldnt be done.

comongethappy · 01-09-2014 01:11PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Seriously, come on.

Well.... I'd love to know too.

I'd also love to know how it justifies the annexation of sovereign territory.

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:14PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Well.... I'd love to know too.

I'd also love to know how it justifies the annexation of sovereign territory.

Never said it justified anything. But this whole issue flows from events in Kiev. And that is a principal fact that the media and you sheep are starting to ignore more and more frequently. I'm just jumping in to point that out.

Notice the name of this thread that you all seem to contribute the same guff over and over and over on a daily basis? Is it called "Crimea: as it happens" ?
Exactly.

Gatling · 01-09-2014 01:18PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Seriously, come on.

Wake Up .

Exactly ,

now how did America cause this

comongethappy · 01-09-2014 01:19PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Never said it justified anything. But this whole issue flows from events in Kiev. And that is a principal fact that the media and you sheep are starting to ignore more and more frequently. I'm just jumping in to point that out.

Notice the name of this thread that you all seem to contribute the same guff over and over and over on a daily basis? Is it called "Crimea: as it happens" ?
Exactly.

That didn't sound like an answer.

Maybe a second stab at it will enlighten us?

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:20PM

Gatling wrote: »

Exactly ,

now how did America cause this

I really hope that, if proper negotiations take place, there isnt a similar attempt to insult the Russians intelligence. Because then there may well be war.

Gatling · 01-09-2014 01:21PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I really hope that, if proper negotiations take place, there isnt a similar attempt to insult the Russians intelligence. Because then there may well be war.

They have already invaded what negotiation should happen exactly .

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:23PM

Gatling wrote: »

They have already invaded what negotiation should happen exactly .

It is difficult i guess to know who is attacking who with the Ukrainian govt whom you support are shelling their own people. I get why you're struggling.

Gatling · 01-09-2014 01:24PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

It is difficult i guess to know who is attacking who with the Ukrainian govt whom you support are shelling their own people. I get why you're struggling.

Do actually know what's happening at all or are you just saying stuff

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:24PM

comongethappy wrote: »

That didn't sound like an answer.

Maybe a second stab at it will enlighten us?

I have no intention in giving you a summary of this entire conflict. You know well what has happened.

Peist2007 · 01-09-2014 01:25PM

Gatling wrote: »

Do actually know what's happening at all or are you just saying stuff

I think everyone here has a fairly decent grasp of what is happening. Some of us are just disingenuous scrotes.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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