Ukraine: As it happens.

realweirdo · 29-08-2014 12:16AM

whatsthetime wrote: »

He did not say they invaded he said they expanded. (By your definition of invade)

Maybe I misread the post. Here is what he said:

Not all their neighbours.

The key members of NATO have a recent history of bullying, interfering with and invading sovereign nations. They don't even limit it to their neighbours, they spread the "love" to distant sovereign nations they have no business interfering with. At least Russia stays within it's sphere of influence.

How long would our sovereignty be benignly smiled upon by the UK and USA if by some insanity we announced tomorrow we were joining the Warsaw Pact? I think some serious regime change would be in the weather... Oh, wait, the Warsaw Pact no longer exists... Then why the hell does NATO?

Russia's "imperialist attitude" is a myth. It's never been smaller. NATO is expanding toward Russia, Russia is not expanding toward NATO.

Having read the post again he says "the key members of NATO have a recent history of bullying, interfereing with and invading soverign nations."

I take it he means individual nations as opposed to NATO as a collective.

In any case I don't see where NATO has invaded anyone lately. Afghanistan under the Taliban can't be considered a soverign state. In Libya, they went in at the request of the UNSC and internatioal community and only to implement a no fly zone and left once the job was done.

As for Russia it too has a long history of invading states. Afghanistan in the 1980s which was then a fairly ok nation state. Their interference in that country brought it to its knees and caused the rise of Al Qaida and Bin Laden. We can go back further too, but I won't.

mickmackey1 · 29-08-2014 12:18AM

Iraq obviously

realweirdo · 29-08-2014 12:25AM

mickmackey1 wrote: »

Iraq obviously

NATO wasn't involved in Iraq from what I recall.

Russia or the USSR has at least as bad of a record and worse of invading nations that don't belong to them and occupying them for decades.

mickmackey1 · 29-08-2014 12:40AM

realweirdo wrote: »

NATO wasn't involved in Iraq from what I recall.

Can't really think of a proper response to that...

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 12:41AM

NATO meets next week. Its going to be interesting to see whether they keep sitting on their hands.

Pundits seem to be saying that putin may have pushed it too far now.

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 12:49AM

DeadHand wrote: »

Oh, wait, the Warsaw Pact no longer exists... Then why the hell does NATO?
.

Because it turns out rational people don't want to be part of Russia or the warsaw pact and as putin is showing the west still needs protection from Russia.

Egginacup · 29-08-2014 02:36AM

comongethappy wrote: »

Is the Kremlin a good enough source?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11060959/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-Ukraine-invaded-by-Russian-forces-says-Petro-Poroshenko-live.html

I'm baffled people need more convincing of the obvious!

You don't believe them when they deny shooting down an airliner. Now you believe them when they say they've invaded Ukraine?

You don't believe a word printed on RT until they print something that you want to be true.

You scream about Putin being a leader for life yet you say nothing about your NATO boy Erdogan in Turkey who has just done the same thing, trashing the constitution and turning himself into a de fact dictator.

Where exactly do you stand?

And again is there any evidence of Russian invasion or maybe the Russians are learning how to play the game, i.e. to just lie and deny everything and make sh*t up. About time one would think.

They ought to kill a bunch of women and then scatter Ukrainian cigarettes, shell casings and beer cans around the site and then blame Kiev. Relying on the truth is pointless when dealing with US/NATO.

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 02:49AM

Egginacup wrote: »

You don't believe them when they deny shooting down an airliner. Now you believe them when they say they've invaded Ukraine?.

Who are these "them" and "they" that you're talking about?

DO you mean the Russian troops taken prisoner in Ukraine? Or putins government minister who admitted that Russian troops are in Ukraine?

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 02:55AM

Egginacup wrote: »

maybe the Russians are learning how to play the game, i.e. to just lie and deny everything and make sh*t up.

Funny!

You should read a history book sometime.

How many million people did stalin kill?

Of course the old soviet union would never "make sh*t" up would they?

And I'm sure putin when he was head of the Russian secret service never made anything up, oh no, they were far too principled. Far too moral.

Veritable slaves to the truth weren't they?

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!!

Egginacup · 29-08-2014 03:01AM

gandalf wrote: »

Deadhand those arguments were made about the Sudetenland in the past by another country trying to regain it's "Empire".

Gandalf, if you do a little research you might find that the only countries that have aspired to "empire" and expansion have been Western European powers and Japan. All others who resisted said expansion of empire have been painted not as defending themselves but of posing a threat to the stability and "democracy" of imperial and expansionist powers.

If Russia was so hell bent on invading the West then why would they agree to re-unify Germany if the US promised not to expand further east? A promise that has been broken.

Russia has been invaded and Russian people massacred for the last two centuries. For you to call them expansionist for attemting to thwart yet another attack on their land and their people, by Moscow building buffer zones is, quite frankly, naive.

To understand the machinations of what is happening here you need to observe with a neutral, and more importantly, an objective eye.

How would you feel if you were the leader of Russia? How would you feel if you were the daughter or grandson of a Russian family who were butchered by the Nazis?

It seems that Jews can be allowed to have fear and paranoia about their treatment. Russians, au contraire, are not allowed to be wracked with trepidation when the western war drums start beating again?

Egginacup · 29-08-2014 03:26AM

The supposed Russian invasion of The Ukraine is more embarrassing than the farcical tweets that implicated Novorussians in the shooting down of MH17.

This is becoming quite entertaining, the joke pantomime that Kiev are trying to stage and US/NATO are trying to make us believe.

Addressing a NYT reporter, Sgt Aleksei Panko stated that the proof he had of columns crossing into the Donetsk area were Russians was [he held up his hand and made a circle with his thumb and index finger] ZERO.

Poroshenko's talk of an invasion was also a translation error according to the German "Tagesschau" news broadcast.

Also Rasmussen, and Michael Gordon (of Iraq WMD fame) have retracted their claims of an invasion but only after gullible muppets have, and continue to, believe it happened.

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 03:35AM

Egginacup wrote: »

Addressing a NYT reporter, Sgt Aleksei Panko stated that the proof he had of columns crossing into the Donetsk area were Russians was [he held up his hand and made a circle with his thumb and index finger] ZERO..

So a ukrainian sergeant has no proof of a Russian invasion?

And this leads you to believe reports of an invasion are false?

I could ask my postman tomorrow if he has any proof too?

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 03:38AM

Egginacup wrote: »

Gandalf, if you do a little research you might find that the only countries that have aspired to "empire" and expansion have been Western European powers and Japan.

if you do a little research:

"The Russian Empire (Pre-reform Russian orthography: Россійская Имперія, Modern Russian: Российская империя, translit: Rossiyskaya Imperiya) was a state that existed from 1721 until overthrown by the short-lived liberal February Revolution in 1917./COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc]2[/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=#0066cc One of the largest empires in world history, stretching over three continents, the Russian Empire was surpassed in landmass only by the British and Mongol empires. It played a major role in 1812–14 in defeating Napoleon's ambitions to control Europe, and expanded to the west and south. It was often in conflict with the Ottoman Empire (which in turn was usually protected by the British)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire

InTheTrees · 29-08-2014 03:42AM

Egginacup wrote: »

If Russia was so hell bent on invading the West then why would they agree to re-unify Germany if the US promised not to expand further east? A promise that has been broken.

Wh????

Germany reunited with itself. It didn't need or get Russian approval. You're really trying to claim it was thanks to Russia that germany reunited??

"if the US promised not to expand further east"????

seriously???

Are you seriously proposing that western Europe is part of the "United States of America"?

Adamantium · 29-08-2014 03:47AM

Some choice reddit comments:

The United States are the ****heads of the world until the world actually needs someone to stand up for their morals. All other countries are the gossipy bitches at the lunchroom until **** goes down and you can hear a mother****ing dog whistle when the USA walks by.

A former world power, broken apart, years later wants back some of its old territory with the claim that some of its citizens are there. They start annexing land bit by bit, biding their time and moving slowly so as not to overtly provoke the rest of the world. Each time they do it the world complains about it but doesn't really want to get into a war so they don't take any significant action.
Am I talking about Russia 2014, or Germany (late 1930s)?

It's an after-the-fact comparison, so we see what we want to see, but I agree, there are an awful lot of similarities.
Pride broken after dismantling? Check.
Economic problems? Check
Powerful, popular leader that runs on a platform of restoring the nation-state to former glory? Check.
Pre-existing level of power that deters world powers from taking action immediately to stop further aggression? Check.
I really hope this doesn't get out of hand.

comongethappy · 29-08-2014 05:58AM

Egginacup wrote: »

The supposed Russian invasion of The Ukraine is more embarrassing than the farcical tweets that implicated Novorussians in the shooting down of MH17.

- The Kremlin say there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine
- the "rebels" say Russian soldiers are in Ukraine.
- Russian soldiers say there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
- Soldiers families associations say there are Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

But this troll account says its all lies.

Its equally fascinating & tragic, the level of fanatical denial people can possess.

You would think it irks these people, when the regime they cherish proves them wrong.
- No, carry on regardless

Next level fanaticism.

gandalf · 29-08-2014 07:54AM

Egginacup wrote: »

Gandalf, if you do a little research you might find that the only countries that have aspired to "empire" and expansion have been Western European powers and Japan. All others who resisted said expansion of empire have been painted not as defending themselves but of posing a threat to the stability and "democracy" of imperial and expansionist powers.

Part of that rubbish statement has already been debunked by one of my peers on the site here. I would also classify the Eastern Bloc after WW2 as an Empire. The USSR under the control of Russia subjugated a number of countries that were independent before WW2. It also crushed in some cases quite violently any attempts by these countries to regain their previous sovereign status.

Only the deluded would see this in any other light.

If Russia was so hell bent on invading the West then why would they agree to re-unify Germany if the US promised not to expand further east? A promise that has been broken.

The US has not expanded anywhere. Germany was reunited as it should have been and the other countries that were subject to Communist Imperial rule were allowed to regain their sovereignty which includes the decision on which organisations they can join. The pertinent question is "If they had such great relations with Russia as in your fantasy world why did they decide to join NATO?", The answer to that is simple to protect themselves from the Russian Bear when another fascist leader like Stalin took the reigns of power.

Russia has been invaded and Russian people massacred for the last two centuries. For you to call them expansionist for attempting to thwart yet another attack on their land and their people, by Moscow building buffer zones is, quite frankly, naive.

Bull****. See the point above. Russias paranoia does not give them a carte blanche get out of jail card to break international law and violate the sovereignty of neighbouring countries.

Remember the Von Ribbentrop pact, remember Russia actively took part in the carving up of Eastern Europe in league with the Nazi's at a time when if they actually stood up to Hitler could have radically changed the history of Europe. Instead they shat on their neighbours just like they are doing now. Yeah your right about one thing "my friend" we do need to look at history to guide us on how to handle the situation now.

To understand the machinations of what is happening here you need to observe with a neutral, and more importantly, an objective eye.

What an ironic statement.

How would you feel if you were the leader of Russia? How would you feel if you were the daughter or grandson of a Russian family who were butchered by the Nazis?

Given Stalins willingness to do deals with the Nazi's initially and then his regimes persecution of the Jews again I would consider that another ironic statement.

It seems that Jews can be allowed to have fear and paranoia about their treatment. Russians, au contraire, are not allowed to be wracked with trepidation when the western war drums start beating again?

Again the entity the Russians really need to be scared of is their own Government. I am sure that the mothers of all those sons on "forced" leave in Eastern Ukraine are really delighted that Warmonger Vlad is standing up for the New Russian Empire.

mickmackey1 · 29-08-2014 05:55PM

gandalf wrote: »

I am sure that the mothers of all those sons on "forced" leave in Eastern Ukraine are really delighted that Warmonger Vlad is standing up for the New Russian Empire.

No more delighted than American mothers watching their brave sons 'liberate' Iraq I'm sure... if you're going to point out the 'irony' in other posts you really should learn the definition of the word.

gandalf · 29-08-2014 05:59PM

mickmackey1 wrote: »

No more delighted than American mothers watching their brave sons 'liberate' Iraq I'm sure... if you're going to point out the 'irony' in other posts you really should learn the definition of the word.

And more deflection from the topic at hand.

mickmackey1 · 29-08-2014 06:04PM

Huh? You're the one talking about ancient Soviet history.

Crann na Beatha · 29-08-2014 06:08PM

This post has been deleted.

WakeUp · 29-08-2014 06:42PM

Phoenix wrote: »

Citizens of Mariupol are preparing to defend their city against Russian backed militia attack

So I cant confirm this report though if true it appears the Ukrainians are getting a bit of a hiding, make of it what you will...

The Southern Front Catastrophe : August 27, 2014

We are currently witnessing an epic and in its own way historic event. The Ukrainian regular army and the punitive battalions are suffering a catastrophic defeat to the south of Donetsk. Only a short time ago the Republics were in dire straits: the DPR was hanging only by a thin supply thread, which the Ukrainian army was attempting to sever near Shakhtersk and Krasnyi Luch; the summit of Saur-Mogila has been abandoned, and Bolotov’s counteroffensive had failed to bring decisive victories..

By the looks of it, the Junta’s intelligence missed this offensive entirely, and as a result of this oversight a comparatively small Militia force intercepted the main supply routes of the largest battle group of the Junta to the south of Donetsk. This grouping was comprised of the enemy’s most combat-capable units involved in the assaults on Mospino, Saur-Mogila and Ilovaisk, including the three punitive battalions – Azov, Shahtersk and Donbass-1, as well as the various reinforcement units and independent companies. More than 5,000 soldiers, approximately 180 various armoured vehicles, and up to 90 artillery pieces, mortars, and MLRS ended up being surrounded.

Though the difference in scale makes a direct comparison impossible, the militia actually carried out a mini-“encirclement operation” similar to the Stalingrad Cauldron – a classic pincer strike in converging directions. While the Junta’s battle group had no Romanians or Italians on its flanks, but it did, instead, have a gaping hole on one side, and on the other side – barrier troops that were never meant to withstand an attack by mechanized units. As a result, in addition to the unfinished remnants of the Dyakovo Cauldron, the Amvrosiyevka Cauldron was created, around which the militia began to create a ring of encirclement, spreading its offensive to the south and to the south-west and in the process occupying settlements deep in the rear of the southern grouping of the Junta. At the same time, the enemy command structures rapidly disintegrated. Battalion Azov in essence refused to subordinate, and the majority of its troops fled to Mariupol. Battalions Donbass-1 and Shahtersk became mired in urban combat for Ilovaisk and, instead of breaking out of the cauldron, started to demand tanks and artillery from the military in order to continue their assault on the city, which by that time was pretty much a lost cause.
http://slavyangrad.org/2014/08/27/the-southern-front-catastrophe-august-27-2014/

realweirdo · 29-08-2014 09:43PM

Looks like the bodybags are already returning to Russia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28968526

Stinicker · 29-08-2014 10:12PM

realweirdo wrote: »

Looks like the bodybags are already returning to Russia.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28968526

Good, as somebody who narrowly avoided boarded MH17 on that faithful day last month nothing would make me happier than Mushroom clouds over Russia. Putin is like a rabid dog and needs to be put down. Hopefully one day the Ukrainians will drive the Russians out of Ukraine and Crimea also. The very fact that an EU army is not collectively engaging Russia at this very moment is a disgrace.

Karl Stein · 30-08-2014 04:16AM

Stinicker wrote: »

nothing would make me happier than Mushroom clouds over Russia.

This is number 1 on my list of 'Stupidest posts ever read on boards'.

Autonomous Cowherd · 30-08-2014 10:39AM

Stinicker wrote: »

Good, as somebody who narrowly avoided boarded MH17 on that faithful day last month nothing would make me happier than Mushroom clouds over Russia. Putin is like a rabid dog and needs to be put down. Hopefully one day the Ukrainians will drive the Russians out of Ukraine and Crimea also. The very fact that an EU army is not collectively engaging Russia at this very moment is a disgrace.

Cheesus!

Be careful what you wish for!!

You don't think bringing NATO right up to Russia's doorstep with Ukraine as an associate partner, supporting a coup that ousted Ukraine's government, placing heavy sanctions on Russia because of their UNPROVEN responsibility for MH17, and so on is not ''actively engaging Russia.''

Yes of course Russia is in the Ukraine. The Ukrainians have managed to SLAUGHTER over 3000 of their civilians since April. If Russia was jigging around in Mexico the way the US is jigging in eastern Europe, you would probably be cheering on the Americans as they rolled over the border....

Neither side is right. Sit down and talk it out. Tell the truth, for the love and honour etc. The real truth behind all this. But crikey, the susceptibility to propaganda is unnerving...

1st dalkey dalkey · 30-08-2014 11:06AM

If Putin wanted all-out war there would be an awful lot more then 1k troops in Ukraine. He is playing the same game he played in Georgia. He will take some territory and play to the masses in Moscow, thereby improving his political capital at home.
What the west should do is match his every move. Send equipment and advisors, in the same number and sophistication, to help the Ukrainian side of the 'debate'. They could even match his denials, just to be fair.
It might also be a good idea to offer military upgrades to any other ex-USSR republics with Russian speaking minorities. For if it works in Ukraine, he will surely try again some place else whenever in need of a few political brownie points at home.
On the plus side, from the west's point of view, these actions will cement in the minds of other nations bordering Russia a suspicion and fear of that country for years to come. Any with Russian speaking minorities would be foolish not to start monitoring them closely. Some would call that racism, others prudence borne of experience.

P_1 · 30-08-2014 11:20AM

Stinicker wrote: »

Good, as somebody who narrowly avoided boarded MH17 on that faithful day last month nothing would make me happier than Mushroom clouds over Russia. Putin is like a rabid dog and needs to be put down. Hopefully one day the Ukrainians will drive the Russians out of Ukraine and Crimea also. The very fact that an EU army is not collectively engaging Russia at this very moment is a disgrace.

Yes I can understand your anger but I'm not too sure wanting to see the deaths of millions who had no influence over their leader's decisions is the best way of resolving that anger. And frankly mushroom clouds over Russia will probably also create mushroom clouds over Dublin, London, Paris, Berlin...

moxin · 30-08-2014 03:05PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

You can believe that from the NY Times if you want, its up to you. Everyone (not me) believed this a month ago but no one believes it now.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10991846/MH17-Young-woman-in-Ukraine-allegedly-posts-picture-using-mascara-looted-from-crash-site.html

Of course you'd blame the NYT for lying. Anyway, the scene events was supported by other local journos. Scroll down to 21:23 GMT at the site http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-192-novoazovsk-occupied-as-yatsenyuk-calls-for-emergency-unsc-meeting/

Full story

A Ukrainian woman who was reported by the New York Times last week as arrested by Russian-backed separatists, bound to a pole and forced to face public humiliation has been released, gordonua.com and TV Rain reported.

Her name is Irina Dovgan.

Thanks to the intervention of journalists, she was ultimately let go, TV Rain photo correspondent Dmitry Belyakov reported.

Dovgan had been beaten, wrapped in a Ukrainian flag, tied to a post with a sign calling her an "agent of the henchmen" and then subjected to spitting, kicking and tomato-throwing by passersby.

At first Aleksandr Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion in Lugansk Region, said he was unaware of the situation.

Belyakov reported (translation by The Interpreter):

After intervention by [British journalist] Mark Franchetti, my colleague, and myself, we were able to convince him [Khodakovsky], that Irina had to be released. On the whole, we did not have to take long to persuade him -- Aleksandr conducted his own investigation, expressed outrage at what was going on, and confirmed that he did not know that the woman had been held on his base. He promised that those guilty would be punished. On the whole, I can testify that Irina Dovgan is alive, well, and everything is fine with her, and she will soon be reunited with her daughter.

Earlier, when the New York Times reporters tried to intervene, for their trouble they themselves were detained briefly by separatists:

A call placed by The New York Times to an aide for a senior separatist commander informing him of the abuse resulted in the rebel soldiers at the checkpoint briefly detaining the journalists. The aide, who uses only the nickname The Georgian, sent a car with gunmen to extricate the suspected spy and journalists from the Motel.

The two groups of gunmen agreed to release the journalists, but were not able to agree on handing over the woman. After the discussion, the captors drove her away to an unknown location.

The man known as The Georgian, who is a member of the Vostok Battalion, which consists of mostly local Ukrainians, said the Ossetian volunteers at the Motel checkpoint do not report to Ukrainian commanders, so nothing further could be done. He said he condemned the abuse.

black_frosch · 30-08-2014 07:05PM

moxin wrote: »

Of course you'd blame the NYT for lying. Anyway, the scene events was supported by other local journos. Scroll down to 21:23 GMT at the site http://www.interpretermag.com/ukraine-liveblog-day-192-novoazovsk-occupied-as-yatsenyuk-calls-for-emergency-unsc-meeting/

Full story

A Ukrainian woman who was reported by the New York Times last week as arrested by Russian-backed separatists, bound to a pole and forced to face public humiliation has been released, gordonua.com and TV Rain reported.

Her name is Irina Dovgan.

Thanks to the intervention of journalists, she was ultimately let go, TV Rain photo correspondent Dmitry Belyakov reported.

Dovgan had been beaten, wrapped in a Ukrainian flag, tied to a post with a sign calling her an "agent of the henchmen" and then subjected to spitting, kicking and tomato-throwing by passersby.

I can testify that Irina Dovgan is alive, well, and everything is fine with her, and she will soon be reunited with her daughter.

Horrible story, what she's done?

Ukraine: As it happens.

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