Ukraine: As it happens.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 04:06PM

gandalf wrote: »

Oh I understand the reasons but just by their actions now they are creating a situation where they may drive the Ukraine into joining NATO because they need protection from a Russia that doesn't respect international law.

Or the situation whereby the Ukraine and Georgia were moving toward NATO membership anyway was unacceptable to Russia.

Grayson · 28-08-2014 04:09PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Or the situation whereby the Ukraine and Georgia were moving toward NATO membership anyway was unacceptable to Russia.

There was never any real threat of Ukraine joining nato. Although thanks to the last few months most countries bordering Russia are kinda looking for some extra security from russia.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 04:16PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Ok, I accept that source as credible but who's driving the tank?

I agree that Russia has been arming rebel factions since the start. But a solitary tank in a solitary seperatist column does not prove the Russian Army itself is in the Ukraine.

Is the Kremlin a good enough source?

16.43 BREAKING: More than 100 Russian soldiers killed
More than 100 Russian soldiers were killed in the August 13 battle in eastern Ukraine, according to two members of Russian president Vladimir Putin's human rights council. They cite witnesses and relatives of the dead for their claims,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11060959/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-Ukraine-invaded-by-Russian-forces-says-Petro-Poroshenko-live.html

I'm baffled people need more convincing of the obvious!

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 04:37PM

Grayson wrote: »

There was never any real threat of Ukraine joining nato.

Under Yanukovych there wasn't. The shower who overthrew him were decidedly more pro-western and hence more likely to be pro-NATO. That, in my opinion, was the genesis of the conflict. Russia will not tolerate NATO in Ukraine and especially not in the Crimea.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 04:40PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Under Yanukovych there wasn't. The shower who overthrew him were decidedly more pro-western and hence more likely to be pro-NATO. That, in my opinion, was the genesis of the conflict. Russia will not tolerate NATO in Ukraine and especially not in the Crimea.

The nub of the matter.
The arrogance that Russia thinks it decides the destiny of other nations.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 05:05PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Is the Kremlin a good enough source?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/11060959/Ukraine-Russia-crisis-Ukraine-invaded-by-Russian-forces-says-Petro-Poroshenko-live.html

I'm baffled people need more convincing of the obvious!

Alright, there's clearly a lot of shady activities going on around the border. But, still, any reports of direct invasion are coming from the Ukrainian military and so are inherently unreliable. The Russian human rights people have interesting stories to tell but are still only speaking of Russian casualties in Ukraine. I never denied Russian volunteers were active in rebel areas.

We still cannot say for sure the invasion of Ukraine by Russia is taking place.

Though I concede that what I've seen and read here and other places today make me believe a full-scale war between the countries is more likely than it was when I woke this morning.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 05:09PM

comongethappy wrote: »

The nub of the matter.
The arrogance that Russia thinks it decides the destiny of other nations.

Or, to look at it another way, the arrogance of NATO and the EU to think they could expand into Russia's sphere of influence without resistance.

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 05:17PM

gandalf wrote: »

Oh I understand the reasons but just by their actions now they are creating a situation where they may drive the Ukraine into joining NATO because they need protection from a Russia that doesn't respect international law.

Are you people in the Russia is evil camp paying attention or what. I mean actually paying attention. There is more of chance of Vlad the shirtless conquering Europe using laser beams from his eyes and bolts of lightning from his arse than there is Ukraine joining Nato. even Ukrainian politicians and the like who are far from the brightest bunch think thats a bad idea. that should tell you something. if that ever looks like remotely happening it really is game over for Ukraine. see you later. forget about Ukraine and look out for and look after ourselves. because nobody else is going to do that for us.

Sand · 28-08-2014 05:23PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Or, to look at it another way, the arrogance of NATO and the EU to think they could expand into Russia's sphere of influence without resistance.

Is Ireland in the UKs sphere of influence? Is Ireland allowed to govern itself and sign international treaties, or must we clear it by the UK government first?

Elmer Blooker · 28-08-2014 05:26PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Or, to look at it another way, the arrogance of NATO and the EU to think they could expand into Russia's sphere of influence without resistance.

How about a large Russian military base in Cuba?
Just hearing on Drivetime that the UK, the most vociferous xenophobes in the EU and NATO (after the land of THE FREE of course) are warning and threatening Russia.
Didn't the MH17 black boxes end up in the UK?

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 05:35PM

Sand wrote: »

Is Ireland in the UKs sphere of influence? Is Ireland allowed to govern itself and sign international treaties, or must we clear it by the UK government first?

The situations aren't comparable.

There was never any risk of us joining a coalition designed to combat the UK or allowing the UK's direct global rivals to base military forces on our land.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 05:37PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

How about a large Russian military base in Cuba?

Is that a question or a proposal?

Sand · 28-08-2014 05:42PM

DeadHand wrote: »

The situations aren't comparable.

There was never any risk of us joining a coalition designed to combat the UK or allowing the UK's direct global rivals to base military forces on our land.

The situations are entirely comparable - Ireland and Ukraine are both sovereign nations. The Russian imperialist attitude that they have a right to interfere with, bully and invade their neighbours is exactly why their neighbours are queueing up to join NATO and the EU.

pablomakaveli · 28-08-2014 05:44PM

DeadHand wrote: »

The situations aren't comparable.

There was never any risk of us joining a coalition designed to combat the UK or allowing the UK's direct global rivals to base military forces on our land.

Er WW2? There was a fear in Britain that Ireland would side with Germany. Churchill even advocated seizing the ports. There was a point during the war when Ireland faced a threat of invasion from both Britain and Germany and we were prepared to defend our neutrality if it had happened.

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 05:47PM

Sand wrote: »

Is Ireland in the UKs sphere of influence? Is Ireland allowed to govern itself and sign international treaties, or must we clear it by the UK government first?

That analogy doesnt work. the British dont have a sphere of influence in Europe. since the break up of the soviet union the two centers of power have been the European union and Russia.

Paperduel · 28-08-2014 05:53PM

If Ukraine wants to join NATO then that's their right as a sovereign nation, too bad of Russia fon't like it.

Elmer Blooker · 28-08-2014 05:57PM

gandalf wrote: »

Oh I understand the reasons but just by their actions now they are creating a situation where they may drive the Ukraine into joining NATO because they need protection from a Russia that doesn't respect international law.

christalmighty!! Putting NATO and "international law" in the same sentence!
you just don't get it.
Are you aware of the crimes that NATO has committed?

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 05:59PM

Sand wrote: »

The situations are entirely comparable - Ireland and Ukraine are both sovereign nations. The Russian imperialist attitude that they have a right to interfere with, bully and invade their neighbours is exactly why their neighbours are queueing up to join NATO and the EU.

Not all their neighbours.

The key members of NATO have a recent history of bullying, interfering with and invading sovereign nations. They don't even limit it to their neighbours, they spread the "love" to distant sovereign nations they have no business interfering with. At least Russia stays within it's sphere of influence.

How long would our sovereignty be benignly smiled upon by the UK and USA if by some insanity we announced tomorrow we were joining the Warsaw Pact? I think some serious regime change would be in the weather... Oh, wait, the Warsaw Pact no longer exists... Then why the hell does NATO?

Russia's "imperialist attitude" is a myth. It's never been smaller. NATO is expanding toward Russia, Russia is not expanding toward NATO.

Elmer Blooker · 28-08-2014 06:04PM

we can thank NATO for our "freedom"

http://www.americancrisis.us/Article.php?ID=550755&

Fiery mutant · 28-08-2014 06:08PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Not all their neighbours.

The key members of NATO have a recent history of bullying, interfering with and invading sovereign nations. They don't even limit it to their neighbours, they spread the "love" to distant sovereign nations they have no business interfering with. At least Russia stays within it's sphere of influence.

How long would our sovereignty be benignly smiled upon by the UK and USA if by some insanity we announced tomorrow we were joining the Warsaw Pact? I think some serious regime change would be in the weather... Oh, wait, the Warsaw Pact no longer exists... Then why the hell does NATO?

Russia's "imperialist attitude" is a myth. It's never been smaller. NATO is expanding toward Russia, Russia is not expanding toward NATO.

You give out about NATO and attitudes they may have had towards their neighbours, but when Russia operates 'within its sphere of influence' it's ok.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 06:15PM

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Er WW2? There was a fear in Britain that Ireland would side with Germany. Churchill even advocated seizing the ports. There was a point during the war when Ireland faced a threat of invasion from both Britain and Germany and we were prepared to defend our neutrality if it had happened.

Though there was a certain amount of sympathy for the German cause among the Irish there was never any genuine threat of Ireland siding with Nazi Germany. I'm not sure if Churchill ever advocated that but it would not surprise me. Churchill advocated all kinds of military adventures at various points throughout the war including the invasion of Soviet Russia through the White Sea at one point. Churchill was generally ignored by the men who did the actual military planning.

In fact, a contingency plan was drawn up and agreed upon by the British and Irish governments during the war that in the event of a German invasion the Irish army would hold out for a few days at which point British divisions would land in Ireland to aid in her defence.

There was never any serious threat of British invasion and the threat of German invasion, while more likely, was extremely remote given the dominance of the Home Fleet.

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 06:18PM

Paperduel wrote: »

If Ukraine wants to join NATO then that's their right as a sovereign nation, too bad of Russia fon't like it.

Sure they can. then see what happens. it might not be right but thats how it is. there is many a poster on this thread and other threads who need a geopolitical reality check. before you get us all phuckin killed.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 06:19PM

Fiery mutant wrote: »

You give out about NATO and attitudes they may have had towards their neighbours, but when Russia operates 'within its sphere of influence' it's ok.

How do you say "double standard" in Russian?

In other news, Reuters are reporting that Kiev will introduce some conscription this autumn as it sends more of its core army (or what's left of it) east to face Russia's forces.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 06:30PM

Fiery mutant wrote: »

You give out about NATO and attitudes they may have had towards their neighbours, but when Russia operates 'within its sphere of influence' it's ok.

I did this to highlight the hypocrisy of the "Russia bad, NATO good" position.

At no point did I say that the behavior of any power involved was "ok". I'm not trying to paint Russia as some benign force here (it isn't, no world power is), I'm merely trying to explain why it does what it does as far as I understand it.

With conflicts on this scale between civilised nations there is no black or white, only gray areas. I just happen to think that Russia is not the villain many here seem to believe it is.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 06:41PM

DeadHand wrote: »

I just happen to think that Russia is not the villain many here seem to believe it is.

How much Ukrainian territory conquered will it take for that penny to clang?

Crann na Beatha · 28-08-2014 09:07PM

This post has been deleted.

catallus · 28-08-2014 09:08PM

Those nutty Russians!

keith16 · 28-08-2014 09:11PM

I think if you try to corner a bear it will lash out. A simple analogy perhaps, but as I said elsewhere this evening, it's the simple things that make sense when you are most drunkiest.

josip · 28-08-2014 09:11PM

Mad Vlad will be the death of us all.
Glad I bought new iodine tabs a few months back.

The_Valeyard · 28-08-2014 09:18PM

josip wrote: »

Mad Vlad will be the death of us all.
Glad I bought new iodine tabs a few months back.

They are once again, now out of date.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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