Ukraine: As it happens.

InTheTrees · 28-08-2014 12:30PM

Russia needs another coup.

A bullet in putins head and clear out this rabble of criminals.

Also Siberian separatists are starting to make noise now that they're realizing their oil money is being taken to finance putins imperial ambitions.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 12:41PM

Whose to say these Russian fighters, active soldiers or otherwise, operating in the disputed areas were ordered there by Moscow?

Thousands of Irishmen and other nationalities fought on both sides in the Spainish civil war few were sent there by their states. A thousand odd Europeans are fighting in Syria and Iraq, they certainly weren't deployed there by their respective governments. It would be naive to think Moscow has no official operatives in the area but talk of a full blown invasion may be alarmist at best.

Talk of a Russian invasion of Europe is feverish fantasy. This conflict is not taking place in Poland, Finland or the Balkans but on Russia's historical, cultural and physical doorstep.
From a Russian perspective, this conflict is not about conquest but securing her borders against percieved NATO and EU expansionism and, in particular, securing the crucial port of Sevastapol.

Due to Russia's tragic history of suffering catastrophically at the hands of foreign powers and outside influences she will defend herself viciously against any threat, imagined or otherwise, without any consideration for global opinion.

This is not meant to excuse Russia's historical aggression, such as in Afghanistan, but may go some way to explaining the Russian mindset and it's uncompromising attitude toward it's security.

gandalf · 28-08-2014 12:44PM

Deadhand those arguments were made about the Sudetenland in the past by another country trying to regain it's "Empire".

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 12:49PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Whose to say these Russian fighters, active soldiers or otherwise, operating in the disputed areas were ordered there by Moscow?

The self declared "Prime Minister" of Donetsk for one.

He told the world 100+ armoured vehicles will be arriving imminently & that turned out to be true.
Tanks & APCs don't leave base for their holliers, even if some few soldiers genuinely do.
And I can't imagine armour being borrowed for the weekend either.

Also, there is nothing 'disputed' about Ukrainian territory. No mandate exists for a territorial dispute to exist.

gandalf · 28-08-2014 12:50PM

Russian Media now are reporting that they are involved in a war with the Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28965597

Reports that Russian troops are intervening directly in the fighting in south-east Ukraine have started to appear in Russian media, despite repeated denials from the Kremlin.

stevedublin · 28-08-2014 01:18PM

comongethappy wrote: »

No mandate exists for a territorial dispute to exist.

In your opinion.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 01:25PM

stevedublin wrote: »

In your opinion.

Show us the ballot Steve.

Several thousand imported fighters is not the same as a mandate from the people.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 01:47PM

gandalf wrote: »

Deadhand those arguments were made about the Sudetenland in the past by another country trying to regain it's "Empire".

Similar arguments, agreed, but different men, different regimes, different times. The nuclear deterent now means too much is at stake for any power to attempt the all consuming conquests achieved by Nazi Germany and her allies even if that were Putin's intention. I don't believe for a second that it is. Whatever you may say about the man he appears sane and logical at least.

No world war will arise fron this situation. Best case scenario: Peace breaks out, Ukraine grants the disputed areas some more regional autonomy in return for laying off. Russia and Nato both save face by acting as brokers of this new peace. The Ukraine is (almost) whole again. The Crimean question is sidelined for now while both sides rebuild and take stock. Perhaps, in time, the people of the rebel areas are allowed a referendum to decide whether they want to join Russia or not and, if necessary, a second peacetime referendum in the Crimea to confirm the obvious popular will in that region.

Worst case: One or more puppet republics spring up in the East, similar to Abkhazia, kept on life support by Russia. Tensions fester in the area for decades with constant local skirmishes and occassional proxy wars between East and West breaking out in this frontline of a new Cold War.

Either way, this will remain regional. Neither side is suicidal enough to escalate dramatically.

Dave_The_Sheep · 28-08-2014 01:58PM

InTheTrees wrote: »

Russia needs another coup.

A bullet in putins head and clear out this rabble of criminals.

Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.

It'll take a slightly more long-term approach than a coup to sort out Russia. Just like shooting Bertie Ahern, while it would be immensely satisfying, wouldn't have fixed anything here back during his reign.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 02:05PM

comongethappy wrote: »

The self declared "Prime Minister" of Donetsk for one.

He told the world 100+ armoured vehicles will be arriving imminently & that turned out to be true.
Tanks & APCs don't leave base for their holliers, even if some few soldiers genuinely do.
And I can't imagine armour being borrowed for the weekend either.

Has the presence of Russian armour manned by regular Russian soldiers in the disputed areas been independently proven?

I know the Ukrainians have made claims to this effect but I believe they are as willing to use misinformation and propaganda to advance their own cause as anyone else, Russia included.

Either way, the presence of such forces in the area would signal a dangerous escalation in the conflict and be in no one's best interests in the long term.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 02:16PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Has the presence of Russian armour manned by regular Russian soldiers in the disputed areas been independently proven?

If I said it had would you believe it?

It has been proven.
But who is independent enough to satisfy the sceptical?

Any evidence shown just gets dismissed by those with an agenda anyway as false or propaganda.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 02:18PM

comongethappy wrote: »

If I said it had would you believe it?

It has been proven.
Who is independent enough to satisfy the sceptical?
(Aside from the large amount of obvious circumstantial evidence).

Links?

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 02:25PM

DeadHand wrote: »

Links?

Well this from today.
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080

Its up to you whether you consider it credible.
As I said, what source is independent enough to satisfy you?

(And those supporting the Kremlin dismiss it anyway, so its pointless)

gandalf · 28-08-2014 02:27PM

This is being reported by the BBC on their live feed.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28966679

15:23:
The head of the Russian Union of Committees of Soldiers' Mothers, Valentina Melnikova, tells the Russian RBK business newspaper that 250 conscripts from the Ryazan commando division have been forced to sign contracts for the purpose of sending them to Ukraine next week.

Another interesting article about this woman.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/08/28/russian-moms-denounce-putin-s-not-so-secret-ukraine-invasion.html

MOSCOW, Russia – Where U.S. President Barack Obama and German Chancellor Angela Merkel have failed to make Russian President Vladimir Putin acknowledge his ever-more-overt invasion of Ukraine and think about pulling back, Valentina Melnikova, the head of Russia’s famous Soldiers’ Mothers Committee, might just have a chance.

Early Thursday morning, Melnikova started getting phone calls from Russian army bosses. All of them, from the deputy defense minister to the paratrooper division commanders, wanted to meet with the great matriarch of the Russian military. She had accused the entire high command, along with Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Putin of invading Ukraine and of committing a crime against Russian citizens by sending Russian soldiers to "the bloody battlefields" without declaring the war, without signing legal papers with the servicemen, without letting Russian mothers know where exactly their drafted sons ended up dying.

Elmer Blooker · 28-08-2014 02:35PM

comongethappy wrote: »

If I said it had would you believe it?

It has been proven.
But who is independent enough to satisfy the sceptical?

Any evidence shown just gets dismissed by those with an agenda anyway as false or propaganda.

Evidence as in Twitter and YouTube? - like MH17?
Evidence from Andriy Lysenko? From The Telegraph, The Guardian, The Express, Daily Mail, Reuters, AP, NY Times, Washington Post, BBC, Sky, ......
They ALL are guilty of lies and misinformation.

gandalf · 28-08-2014 02:41PM

Elmer Blooker wrote: »

Evidence as in Twitter and YouTube? - like MH17?
Evidence from Andriy Lysenko? From The Telegraph, The Guardian, The Express, Daily Mail, Reuters, AP, NY Times, Washington Post, BBC, Sky, ......
They ALL are guilty of lies and misinformation.

So in your books who is a reliable source Elmer?

pablomakaveli · 28-08-2014 02:43PM

gandalf wrote: »

So in your books who is a reliable source Elmer?

Given his love of RT, i'd say that.

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 02:46PM

gandalf wrote: »

So in your books who is a reliable source Elmer?

Anyone not controlled by the corporate lamestream/Rothschild/illuminati.

Wake up sheeple!

Global research a favoured bastion of the real truth.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

gandalf · 28-08-2014 03:03PM

So basically when different media organisations based in varied different countries, some of which are private enterprises and others which are state based ones. A portion of which are highly respected and are known for high journalistic standards are all reporting similar information you discount it Elmer.

Yet on the other hand you quote as sources a site that is quite clearly basing its stories on fantasy tinfoil news and another that has been unmasked as a blatant puppet mouthpiece of Putins Kremlin regime.

Your credibility is severely lacking my friend

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 03:05PM

"rational" wiki

hmmm right so. whatever one thinks of global research though using "rational wiki to back up a point to back up anything, I mean come on.

anyways, so I dont think there is much doubt the Russians are directly over the border, the Ukrainians have Russian troops in captivity or so I believe, the Kiev nazi brigades are killing Russians in the east. nazis killing Russians on the Russian border. cause thats going to end well for Kiev. Kiev whoring themselves to the EU and nato. cause thats going to end well for them too. is anyone really surprised the Russians are crossing over. Im not. but an invasion it is not. because when the Russians invade the Ukrainians will know all about it. it will be brutal, swift and the Ukrainians wont know what hit them. Winter is coming. phuck Ukraine. the spice must flow and business needs doing. it would appear to me the Russians may well be prepping for something directly. the time may be approaching when people will need to ask themselves is war with Russia on behalf of the Kiev phuckwits (who threatened to turn off European energy from Russia by the way) really worth it. if and when Russia actually invades it will be quite apparent.

gandalf · 28-08-2014 03:07PM

And Russian "Nazi's" are fighting Ukrainians Wakeup :rolleyes:

https://bellingcat.com/news/mena/2014/08/27/revealed-around-40-russian-troops-from-pskov-died-in-the-ukraine-reinforcement-sent-in/

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 03:11PM

but is the west backing the Russian nazis? I dont think "we" are. though apparently weve no problem with Ukrainian nazis. they are good wholesome nazis. great bunch of lads. this situation has the potential to affect all of us. that makes it personal. I dont give a sh1t about Ukraine, Russia or the US. I do however care about us, Ireland. so I stand by what Ive said since the start. phuck Ukraine. cut them loose before its too late.

gandalf · 28-08-2014 03:16PM

If you don't care about Ukraine why are you bothering to waste your time posting in a thread about it then :rolleyes:

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 03:20PM

seriously? is the world that simple for you? good Ukraine bad Russia is that why you keep rolling your eyes at me...

comongethappy · 28-08-2014 03:25PM

WakeUp wrote: »

seriously? is the world that simple for you? good Ukraine bad Russia is that why you keep rolling your eyes at me...

No one thinks its that black & white.

At the end of the day, there is only 1 nation attacking another here.

pablomakaveli · 28-08-2014 03:31PM

WakeUp wrote: »

but is the west backing the Russian nazis? I dont think "we" are. though apparently weve no problem with Ukrainian nazis. they are good wholesome nazis. great bunch of lads. this situation has the potential to affect all of us. that makes it personal. I dont give a sh1t about Ukraine, Russia or the US. I do however care about us, Ireland. so I stand by what Ive said since the start. phuck Ukraine. cut them loose before its too late.

If you care about Ireland as much as you say than you'd see the similarity to whats happening to Ukraine now with Russia to what happened to us with the UK.

Also do you not see the hypocrisy in slamming the West for backing Ukrainian "nazi's" while not doing the same with Russia who are backing the Russian "nazi's"?

gandalf · 28-08-2014 03:32PM

WakeUp wrote: »

seriously? is the world that simple for you? good Ukraine bad Russia is that why you keep rolling your eyes at me...

Has the Ukraine attacked Russia? No

Has Russia illegally violated the Ukraines territory? Yes they have already annexed Crimea illegally.

Is Russia now involved directly in the other so called rebel territories in the Ukraine? The answer now is a categorical yes.

I find that wrong, do you not?

WakeUp · 28-08-2014 03:45PM

comongethappy wrote: »

No one thinks its that black & white.

At the end of the day, there is only 1 nation attacking another here.

Actually its quite obvious that this situation is viewed by many in black and white. in fairyland where you might just find a pot of gold under a rainbow Ukraine can act as it likes and gravitate toward the west and in turn threaten Russian interests because freedumb or whatever. meanwhile back in the real world that sort of thing is a redline for the Russians. they wont have it. does that make it right. no it doesnt. but its how it is.

pablomakaveli wrote: »

If you care about Ireland as much as you say than you'd see the similarity to whats happening to Ukraine now with Russia to what happened to us with the UK.

Also do you not see the hypocrisy in slamming the West for backing Ukrainian "nazi's" while not doing the same with Russia who are backing the Russian "nazi's"?

you talk of hypocrisy. really. you sure you want to go down that road?..

gandalf wrote: »

Has the Ukraine attacked Russia? No

Has Russia illegally violated the Ukraines territory? Yes they have already annexed Crimea illegally.

Is Russia now involved directly in the other so called rebel territories in the Ukraine? The answer now is a categorical yes.

I find that wrong, do you not?

yes I do find it wrong. again something Ive stated since this began. Ukraine and Georgia coming into an EU/Nato orbit. its just a redline for the Russians. I might not agree with it. it doesnt make it right. but unfortunately for them its how it is.

gandalf · 28-08-2014 03:59PM

WakeUp wrote: »

yes I do find it wrong. again something Ive stated since this began. Ukraine and Georgia coming into an EU/Nato orbit. its just a redline for the Russians. I might not agree with it. it doesnt make it right. but unfortunately for them its how it is.

Oh I understand the reasons but just by their actions now they are creating a situation where they may drive the Ukraine into joining NATO because they need protection from a Russia that doesn't respect international law.

DeadHand · 28-08-2014 04:03PM

comongethappy wrote: »

Well this from today.
http://m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28961080

Its up to you whether you consider it credible.
As I said, what source is independent enough to satisfy you?

(And those supporting the Kremlin dismiss it anyway, so its pointless)

Ok, I accept that source as credible but who's driving the tank?

I agree that Russia has been arming rebel factions since the start. But a solitary tank in a solitary seperatist column does not prove the Russian Army itself is in the Ukraine.

Ukraine: As it happens.

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