Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 04:08PM

Lord TSC wrote: »

I can't sing, but I can tell you if you're in tune or not.

If we're cutting down on people who haven't played professionally from having opinions, we can shut this entire forum down....

And i apologise if that is what has been taken from my comments. Not saying that at all.

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 04:09PM

Robson99 wrote: »

You bet me to it Peist. From Scholes not knowing what hes talking about to not having heard of a 352 system before because we played 442. What total tarmac talk.
I think its fairly safe to assume Scholes could educate everyone here as to tactics formations etc.
Also it shouldn't take centre half long to understand the basics of defending no matter what formation the are set up in. They are pros gettin paid week in week out.
Judging him on 5 min air space after the game and not going into a detailed explanation is also muck. I'm pretty sure he could have spent an hour on the subject if time allowed

I'm judging what he said in this written piece which was posted in the thread last night. He has no excuse for not mentioning the single biggest problem with United's defending on Saturday when he wrote such a long article and was so critical of the centre-backs.

I also clarified previously that I'm sure he understands other aspects of football, that were more closely related to his position, very well. The "not knowing what he's talking about" comment was specifically regarding the centre-backs and his analysis (or lack of) of the defensive set-up of the formation.

And nobody said that he hasn't heard of the 352. That is a straw man.

We aren't talking about the basics of defending. I'm sure Scholes can do those when on the pitch and has an understanding of them. We're talking about his ability to analyse a team shape and his knowledge of the defensive workings of a 3CBs/2WBs system.

There's also the issue of his ability to get his thoughts in order clearly for when he is forming an opinion and presenting an argument. Something that his career as a professional footballer will have given him no particular training for.

There have been countless great players who have gone on to be shít pundits and managers. There is no reason why Scholes should be any different.

UnitedIrishman · 21-08-2014 04:09PM

Pro. F wrote: »

As of this moment Scholes has done nothing to prove that he is a reliable judge of centre-backs, that he has anything more than a basic midfielder's understanding of defensive organisation or that he has any understanding of the defensive shape of a 3412.

Just because he has was an excellent attacking CM and just because he has worked with these centre-backs does not make his opinions on them automatically valid. When, in expressing those opinions, he neglects to mention crucial considerations about the problems with the team's current defensive shape, then the validity of his opinion on the centre-backs has to be questioned.

To be fair, he's also a UEFA B' qualified coach. Saying he's not able to judge center halfs is like saying center forwards turned managers can't judge any other positions bar center forwards.

I think he'd have picked up a fair bit of knowledge about them from playing in front of them since whenever.

Kirby · 21-08-2014 04:13PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

To be fair, he's also a UEFA B' qualified coach. Saying he's not able to judge center halfs is like saying center forwards turned managers can't judge any other positions bar center forwards.

I think he'd have picked up a fair bit of knowledge about them from playing in front of them since whenever.

I know a person who has the B license, and let's just say they aren't exactly a tactical genius.

I wouldn't read too much into that.

Quandary · 21-08-2014 04:14PM

If scholes wants to start criticising Utd players, then before knocking Rooney and our young centre halves he should start with our midfielders. Cleverley and Fletcher are barely good enough to be back up players at this stage.

I honestly think if we sort the midfield so many things would fall into place. The defence would have protection and Mata/Rooney would be getting plenty of quick ball in to feet. Herrera is able to do this but not when he's scampering around in front of the defence trying to break up opposition attacks.

No more signing a no.10/winger/defender and expecting them to adapt and play a position they are not suited to.

Please for the love of whoever, just sign a decent centre midfield player

Zico · 21-08-2014 04:14PM

Pro. F wrote: »

When, in expressing those opinions, he neglects to mention crucial considerations about the problems with the team's current defensive shape, then the validity of his opinion on the centre-backs has to be questioned.

What qualifies you to judge his judgement?

What have you done in your life that has allowed you to identify these crucial considerations Paul Scholes has overlooked?

You may disagree with him but it's coming across as though you think you know better, which is a bit of a fantasy unless you are actually a professional coach at one of the world's biggest clubs.

twam2008 · 21-08-2014 04:15PM

super_furry wrote: »

Still baffles me that United let two real leaders in Ferdinand and Vidic leave in the same season along with Evra who would have more of an influence than anyone currently in the United defence.

I know, there seems to be a real lack of planning, was reading an article earlier that spoke to a former Director of football at Chelsea, he was saying that any big transfers should be started 6 to 12 months in advance, you know what players you need to replace you work out your list of targets and start working on them. The United transfer approach over the last few windows seems pretty haphazard. Surely we had some kind of planning for Carrick, Rio, Vidic, Evra in place?

Chelsea’s former Director of Football Operations, Mike Forde, who oversaw the recruitment of some of the world’s biggest players to the Premier League, spoke of what’s needed to land a high-profile name. "You’re always evaluating the economics. If you’re a big team and you’re signing big players, you’re doing your work six, nine or sometimes 12 months out so there’s a lot of preparation from data and various reports. It’s a long, drawn-out process and the bigger the player, the more time you have to spend to make sure it’s the right option.”

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 04:17PM

ericzeking wrote: »

I played in goals for my career, more GAA though for me, if you want to make it to 'the very top'...you have to pick one or the other!! :pac::pac::pac:

You are getting super excited by the fact I and others said his punditry was lacking....I actually referenced his lack of eloquence as to how he gets his point across.

No one is saying he doesn't understand football. We all loved him as a player.

You sound like a typical overly partisan blinkered fan, just because someone is a club legend you're going to revere absolutely everything about them, regardless. It's impossible to discuss anything with someone like that.

The bold bit. Dear God no. United were winning league titles with what i called at the time a poor team. Imagine what i think now? I find someone called EriczeKing calling me a blinkered fan to be funny too. Your entire Boards persona based on Eric Cantona? Ok!

And i swear i am not excited about this. I merely am pointing out that it is a pretty safe bet to say that Scholes knows more about setting a team up defensively and has seen more teams set up defensively in a professional context than anyone here. Saying that he is somehow demoted to your level because "he only played in a 442" is too silly to even elaborate on.

As for Jose Mourinho and Benitez mentioned above, i take the point. But it misses my point. I am not saying an ex player is automatically going to know the game inside out. But we arent talking about Duncan Ferguson here. Anyone who has ever watched Paul Scholes should see his innate knowledge of the game every time.

Maximus Alexander · 21-08-2014 04:18PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

To be fair, he's also a UEFA B' qualified coach. Saying he's not able to judge center halfs is like saying center forwards turned managers can't judge any other positions bar center forwards.

I think he'd have picked up a fair bit of knowledge about them from playing in front of them since whenever.

Like most United fans, if Scholes has something to say about football, I want to hear it. He's obviously going to have insights into the game that we don't have, but that doesn't make him infallible. There seems to be an attitude here that you can't question him, because who are you to disagree with him about anything?

The only way that line of reasoning makes sense is if we accept that Scholes is incapable of being incorrect, or misjudging something. That's obviously not the case. Otherwise, what would happen if Scholes and some other former footballer with a UEFA coaching qualification disagreed on something? They couldn't both be right - the universe would have to implode.

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 04:20PM

Zico wrote: »

You may disagree with him but it's coming across as though you think you know better, which is a bit of a fantasy unless you are actually a professional coach at one of the world's biggest clubs.

Which is the basis of my point. I found Pro F's statement to be funny.

Hank Scorpio · 21-08-2014 04:21PM

Pro. F wrote: »

As of this moment Scholes has done nothing to prove that he is a reliable judge of centre-backs, that he has anything more than a basic midfielder's understanding of defensive organisation or that he has any understanding of the defensive shape of a 3412.

Just because he has was an excellent attacking CM and just because he has worked with these centre-backs does not make his opinions on them automatically valid. When, in expressing those opinions, he neglects to mention crucial considerations about the problems with the team's current defensive shape, then the validity of his opinion on the centre-backs has to be questioned.

Scholes has played at the very top for 2 decades, the word basic doesn't come into his criteria. At a professional level Scholes and all the other players would have been involved and drilled into so many defensive scenarios working with the defenders. We're talking about the very top here in professional sport. Of course he has a high level understanding of defensive organisation, he has a high level understanding of everything that's involved in football because that's his job and what he was trained to listen to, practice and drill day in day out for over 20 years

On the 2nd point he has not only played as an attacking midfielder but also a holding midfielder who controlled the tempo of games and was one of the best in the world is doing so. Again this shows his intelligence in understanding different positions and adapting to them. I think you really underestimate the level involved for all personel working at the very top in professional sport.

My original point was I would trust Scholes judgement of United defenders for obvious reasons, we have no idea the level involved in understanding the game in all positions compared to someone like him, even though some of us want to believe we do

secman · 21-08-2014 04:21PM

Scholes vision on a pitch was just quite unbelievable.. a treasure to behold...... can't be that bad off a pitch ..just sayin

UnitedIrishman · 21-08-2014 04:23PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Like most United fans, if Scholes has something to say about football, I want to hear it. He's obviously going to have insights into the game that we don't have, but that doesn't make him infallible. There seems to be an attitude here that you can't question him, because who are you to disagree with him about anything?

The only way that line of reasoning makes sense is if we accept that Scholes is incapable of being incorrect, or misjudging something. That's obviously not the case. Otherwise, what would happen if Scholes and some other former footballer with a UEFA coaching qualification disagreed on something? They couldn't both be right - the universe would have to implode.

I'm not disagreeing win the fact that people can disagree with his opinion, I'm merely disagreeing with the someone's opinion that he doesn't know anything about center halfs. That was hard to write and I've probably still articulated it wrong! :pac:

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 04:23PM

nuxxx wrote: »

Scholes has played at the very top for 2 decades, the word basic doesn't come into his criteria. At a professional level Scholes and all the other players would have been involved and drilled into so many defensive scenarios working with the defenders. We're talking about the very top here in professional sport. Of course he has a high level understanding of defensive organisation, he has a high level understanding of everything that's involved in football because that's his job and what he was trained to listen to, practice and drill day in day out for over 20 years

On the 2nd point he has not only played as an attacking midfielder but also a holding midfielder who controlled the tempo of games and was one of the best in the world is doing so. Again this shows his intelligence in understanding different positions and adapting to them. I think you really underestimate the level involved for all personel working at the very top in professional sport.

My original point was I would trust Scholes judgement of United defenders for obvious reasons, we have no idea the level involved in understanding the game in all positions compared to someone like him, even though some of want to believe we do

And again. I think i should pay some lads to put my point across better

bullvine · 21-08-2014 04:28PM

secman wrote: »

Scholes vision on a pitch was just quite unbelievable.. a treasure to behold...... can't be that bad off a pitch ..just sayin

Gazza had unreal vision as well wouldnt take his opinion of football though!

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 04:31PM

I think the opinions of guys like Scholes are vital at this time. If we tell the Class of 92 that their day has gone then we will be jettisoning the wisdom of real winners. Given the complete muppet we have trying to make us a complete laughing stock in terms of transfers, i think it is no harm the likes of Scholes outlining publicly that 5 top players are needed.

Felexicon · 21-08-2014 04:45PM

Just flicked over the last few pages.

Is Scholes out of retirement?

super_furry · 21-08-2014 04:47PM

bullvine wrote: »

Gazza had unreal vision as well wouldnt take his opinion of football though!

Gazza didn't play alongside and train alongside almost everyone at Old Trafford right now.

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 04:48PM

UnitedIrishman wrote: »

To be fair, he's also a UEFA B' qualified coach. Saying he's not able to judge center halfs is like saying center forwards turned managers can't judge any other positions bar center forwards.

I think he'd have picked up a fair bit of knowledge about them from playing in front of them since whenever.

I didn't say that he's not able to judge centre-halfs. I said, as of this moment Scholes has done nothing to prove that he is a reliable judge of centre-backs.

I know a guy who holds a B licence. I've seen him run his training sessions and talked to him while we both watch a game from the sidelines. He's a nice fella, but his knowledge is nothing unusual at all.

I've seen plenty of UEFA pro-licensed managers working in the very highest leagues who are poor judges of centre-backs.

secman · 21-08-2014 04:50PM

bullvine wrote: »

Gazza had unreal vision as well wouldnt take his opinion of football though!

Not a patch on Scholsey on or off a pitch...... Gazza unfortunately has mental health issues.. god love him...........wish him well.

keane2097 · 21-08-2014 04:54PM

.

secman · 21-08-2014 04:55PM

deleted.........

keane2097 · 21-08-2014 05:05PM

secman wrote: »

Lovely.............

Hadn't refreshed the page - have deleted the gif now. Apologies, not my form.

bucketybuck · 21-08-2014 05:11PM

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

There seems to be an attitude here that you can't question him, because who are you to disagree with him about anything?

No, this whole argument began when Scholes mildly criticised our defenders and then one poster said Scholes opinion should be disregarded because of blah blah reasons.

Adamocovic · 21-08-2014 05:13PM

I was going to read the few pages I've missed but judging by it I don't think I will bother. Seems mostly talk about Scholes, he must have released a new article about us. Don't think I'll bother reading arguments about his opinions.

Hopefully we get another signing before the window closes, if not I imagine a lot of people will be unhappy.

Corvo · 21-08-2014 05:16PM

Adamocovic wrote: »

I was going to read the few pages I've missed but judging by it I don't think I will bother. Seems mostly talk about Scholes, he must have released a new article about us. Don't think I'll bother reading arguments about his opinions.

Hopefully we get another signing before the window closes, if not I imagine a lot of people will be unhappy.

They'll be unhappy anyway, seems a genuine theme.

Liam McPoyle · 21-08-2014 05:20PM

SSN reporting that Beckenbauer (sp) reckons Khedira would fit in perfectly at Munich.

No chance we would get him if we were up against them and probably if Arsenal make a move either.

Larry Wildman · 21-08-2014 05:22PM

I'm not convinced that having the Class of '92 around is such a great idea.

By all means, celebrate the past but there's a counterargument that having these guys around undermines what the current regime is trying to achieve.

We all know that good players don't necessarily make good coaches, so perhaps Scholes' opinion isn't that worthwhile at all?

MagicMarker · 21-08-2014 05:25PM

Larry Wildman wrote: »

I'm not convinced that having the Class of '92 around is such a great idea.

By all means, celebrate the past but there's a counterargument that having these guys around undermines what the current regime is trying to achieve.

We all know that good players don't necessarily make good coaches, so perhaps Scholes' opinion isn't that worthwhile at all?

The class of 92 are not around. Giggs is asst manager and Nicky Butt is a coach, that's it. Scholes/Beckham and the Nevilles are not involved.

Let LVG worry about that kind of stuff, you can be sure if he wasn't happy about he'd make changes.

newballsplease · 21-08-2014 05:33PM

Scholes was spot on with what he said. The fact he was still in the team at such a late age tells the story.
Utd have been lacking quality in Central midfield for years now.
Its got on top of the team now and it seems the club will suffer for years unless it is addressed now.
I have no idea why LVG wouldnt be interested in Toni Kroos but surely a bid had to have been made? If not its bizarre.
If the club goes without signing a top class central midfielder before the window closes, theyre up sh*t creek.
Di mario wont solve that issue.

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

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