Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

Whatsisname · 21-08-2014 02:48PM

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 02:49PM

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Fergie said Scholes has one of the best minds for football around - understands the game brilliantly.

But you say he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Who to side with on this.... hmmmmmmm

I'm sure he understands the midfield job. I'm sure he understands how to read player movements on the pitch to build and finish attacks. And understood what Fergie wanted from him. However, he was only ever, at best, adequate at defending.

I was talking specifically about defending using a 3 CBs/2 WBs formation. Scholes made no mention of the obvious problems with how that formation has been set up at United. He made no mention of how that would leave any centre-backs exposed. So yes, he definitely does not know what he is talking about when it comes to that.

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 02:51PM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Not really , maybe he was pointing out if we had 3 better CB's that weren't 'weak' the formation would work just fine..I think Scholes has a better idea on tactical nous than we do..

There are no centre-backs in the history of football that would not be exposed if they had only two midfielders protecting the width of the pitch in front of the back line. We can sign any CBs you want, the problem won't go away until Van Gaal starts organising the team differently.

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 02:52PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm sure he understands the midfield job. I'm sure he understands how to read player movements on the pitch to build and finish attacks. And understood what Fergie wanted from him. However, he was only ever, at best, adequate at defending.

I was talking specifically about defending using a 3 CBs/2 WBs formation. Scholes made no mention of the obvious problems with how that formation has been set up at United. He made no mention of how that would leave any centre-backs exposed. So yes, he definitely does not know what he is talking about when it comes to that.

I'm sure Scholes understands football

viper006 · 21-08-2014 02:53PM

Irishcrx wrote: »

Utd can attract Di Maria over PSG, it's just a case if we really want to go out and do it. Utd are still a huge club, we can afford the fee and wages. LVG is an attraction , and hopefully with the right mentality we will be back in Europe next season. Man Utd are a bigger club than PSG and the premiership is a better competition for him to play in week in week out.

Utd need to get the finger out and convince Di Maria of that , he is top top winger and weather or not we really 'need' him right now he will prvide a major injection of skill ,pace, guile and assists into our front line. I agree though , sign Khedira as well if he's available.

Balotelli to Liverpool will be brilliant , they sell Suarez and buy this lunatic - frying pan into the fire.

At least Suarez had world class ability as well, Balotelli is a bell end with the mentality and professionalism of a 5 year old child. Be a great 5 a side player down the local with all his tricks but will never EVER be a world class player at this rate I don't think he has any interest in doing so either, happy enough to earn a wage be a journeyman and grab the headlines in any way he can.

Thank you Liverpool for this gift to the Neutrals.

Getting rid of borini for 14m and balotelli in for 16m is a masterstroke i think.

Liverpool paying Balotelli 90k to play for them is better than paying nani 120k to play for another team.Happy out with Sturridge and Balotelli for the same price as Shaw.

bucketybuck · 21-08-2014 02:53PM

Tune in again tomorrow for the next edition of "Man who played with these guys for years doesn't know what he is talking about".

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 02:55PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

I'm sure Scholes understands football

I didn't say that he doesn't understand football. Football has a lot of different aspects to it. I'm sure he understand some of them very well, that doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about when it comes to every aspect of the game.

Being a great player does not automatically make somebody a great pundit. That should not be up for debate.

ericzeking · 21-08-2014 02:56PM

I'm with Pro F on this one, watching Scholes at the weekend on BT (they duped me into getting the package) I couldn't help but think that for such a talented and cultured player his punditry was pretty basic....the jist of what he thought United needed to do was get it to the midfielders and get it to the wide and forward players quickly. His analysis was far from technical, though it was only his first day on the job.

bangkok · 21-08-2014 02:57PM

http://www.sportinglife.com/football/news/article/165/9432745/transfer-window-tom-mcdermott-delivers-his-verdict-on-premier-league-players

Julez · 21-08-2014 02:57PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't say that he doesn't understand football. Football has a lot of different aspects to it. I'm sure he understand some of them very well, that doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about when it comes to every aspect of the game.

Being a great player does not automatically make somebody a great pundit. That should not be up for debate.

Also, I'm sure, tactically, LVG would have a better understanding of how to set up a football team than Scholes. On the player front, Scholes and LVG might well feel exactly the same and the Board just aren't getting it done.

redbaron_99 · 21-08-2014 02:58PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't say that he doesn't understand football. Football has a lot of different aspects to it. I'm sure he understand some of them very well, that doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about when it comes to every aspect of the game.

Being a great player does not automatically make somebody a great pundit. That should not be up for debate.

Very true. Lost count the amount of time I've been left scratching my head listening to ex players assess certain aspects of the sport.

bangkok · 21-08-2014 02:59PM

ericzeking wrote: »

I'm with Pro F on this one, watching Scholes at the weekend on BT (they duped me into getting the package) I couldn't help but think that for such a talented and cultured player his punditry was pretty basic....the jist of what he thought United needed to do was get it to the midfielders and get it to the wide and forward players quickly. His analysis was far from technical, though it was only his first day on the job.

but its actually that simple, scholes in his prime got the ball, turned and pinged it wide to a giggs, beckham Ronaldo etc and they got it into the box quickly and at pace. nothing technical about that!!

ericzeking · 21-08-2014 03:03PM

bangkok wrote: »

but its actually that simple, scholes in his prime got the ball, turned and pinged it wide to a giggs, beckham Ronaldo etc and they got it into the box quickly and at pace. nothing technical about that!!

But if you don't have Giggs, Beckham and Ronaldo and your main play maker (Mata) is playing further forward than he used to then it's a bit different.

As I said it was his first day on the job, I'm sure as he gets more comfortable in the role he might become more expressive about what is in his head.

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 03:03PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Tune in again tomorrow for the next edition of "Man who played with these guys for years doesn't know what he is talking about".

If Scholes started expounding on physiotherapy or goal keeping would you take that as gospel too? Or, if he showed major oversights when expressing his opinions, would you not conclude that he doesn't actually know much about those disciplines?

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 03:09PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I didn't say that he doesn't understand football. Football has a lot of different aspects to it. I'm sure he understand some of them very well, that doesn't mean he knows what he's talking about when it comes to every aspect of the game.

Being a great player does not automatically make somebody a great pundit. That should not be up for debate.

Never said it was up for debate. But i think that speculating about whether Scholes knows how a particular type of defence works is a bit silly when you have nothing to go on to form that opinion. You seem to have a reasonable grasp of it yet you think someone who played for United for 20 odd years possibly doesnt. Based on nothing at all from what i can see.

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 03:09PM

ericzeking wrote: »

I'm with Pro F on this one, watching Scholes at the weekend on BT (they duped me into getting the package) I couldn't help but think that for such a talented and cultured player his punditry was pretty basic....the jist of what he thought United needed to do was get it to the midfielders and get it to the wide and forward players quickly. His analysis was far from technical, though it was only his first day on the job.

Scholes was never the eloquent sort. His understanding of the game is a completely separate issue.

Winston Payne · 21-08-2014 03:11PM

"He was a great player, so obviously he's an expert!"

This is the most asinine thing I've seen in here in quite a while. It doesn't work that way. We see that literally dozens of times a year, regardless of channel, nationality, or position. Why would Scholes be different?

Peist2007 wrote: »

Never said it was up for debate. But i think that speculating about whether Scholes knows how a particular type of defence works is a bit silly when you have nothing to go on to form that opinion.

It's based on what Scholes bloody said. You think he didn't round out his assessment on purpose?

MagicIRL · 21-08-2014 03:12PM

Winston Payne wrote: »

Why would Scholes be different?

Because....

He scores goals, he scores goals,
He scores gooooals, he scores goals,
He scores goals, he scores goals,
Pauuuul Schooles, he scores goals.

Pro. F · 21-08-2014 03:12PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Never said it was up for debate. But i think that speculating about whether Scholes knows how a particular type of defence works is a bit silly when you have nothing to go on to form that opinion. You seem to have a reasonable grasp of it yet you think someone who played for United for 20 odd years possibly doesnt. Based on nothing at all from what i can see.

If he has a reasonable grasp of how the 3CBs/2WBs defensive shape works, then how come he didn't make any reference to the lack of the basic elements of those workings at the weekend and instead just criticised the CBs? How does he criticise the CBs and not mention that the shape was set up in a way that was both extremely unusual and never likely to be effective?

UnitedIrishman · 21-08-2014 03:18PM

redbaron_99 wrote: »

Very true. Lost count the amount of time I've been left scratching my head listening to ex players assess certain aspects of the sport.

That's why it was interesting to see two very different views from Carragher and Neville about our formation on Monday. Both had some great points but argued over the wing back positions and the center midfield too.

LvG has said its going to take 3 months to get it into his squad about their roles and positioning and I'm not surprised. I remember reading about Cryuff and how he dictated space to people on a football field, it was nuts stuff but effective.

Think a lot is made about what Scholes says because he never used to say much. His pieces are much like what Carraghers were when he retired and yet there wasn't half the deal made.

ericzeking · 21-08-2014 03:18PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

Never said it was up for debate. But i think that speculating about whether Scholes knows how a particular type of defence works is a bit silly when you have nothing to go on to form that opinion. You seem to have a reasonable grasp of it yet you think someone who played for United for 20 odd years possibly doesnt. Based on nothing at all from what i can see.

Scholes played 99% of his career in a 4-4-2 playing the same way with traditional wingers...Fergie Tactics 101, week in, week out....that he may not be comfortable with or knowledgeable about the intricacies of the 352 we played on Saturday is hardly surprising. Neither is the fact he didn't express himself to the fullest.

KombuchaMshroom · 21-08-2014 03:19PM

bucketybuck wrote: »

Tune in again tomorrow for the next edition of "Man who played with these guys for years doesn't know what he is talking about".

Haven't seen what Scholes has said so not sure what the argument is fully about, but these points that just because he was a really good player and knows the club and players well means whatever he says is automatically right is a load of crap to be honest.

I'm not saying he is wrong here, again I haven't really paid much attention to what was even said, but arguments that "well X said it/believes it/did it, therefore it must be true" is a very lazy way of arguing. These people are just as capable of being wrong as the rest of us.

One thing I will add about the whole "class of 92" is that a lot of time they come out spewing this nonsense about the United philosophy and way of playing, and because they were brought up entirely on the 4-4-2 system at United that this is now the "United way" and we should never play anything different. The game evolves and so clubs need to evolve with it. I think they come across as extremely set in their ways and will never like certain types of players for United (I.e they don't seem to like Mata at the club, despite every other succesful team in the world having players who play his type of position) so for that I will never take what those lads say as the automatically right.

I of course would be very interested to hear their opinions most the time and see how they challenge or align with my own, but at the same time I'm not going to immediately conclude that I am wrong because I disagree with one of them.

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 03:19PM

Winston Payne wrote: »

"He was a great player, so obviously he's an expert!"

This is the most asinine thing I've seen in here in quite a while. It doesn't work that way. We see that literally dozens of times a year, regardless of channel, nationality, or position. Why would Scholes be different?

It's based on what Scholes bloody said. You think he didn't round out his assessment on purpose?

No, i think that Scholes is not eloquent and any time i have seen him interviewed he comes across as a man of few words. So to expect him to elucidate on the tactical ramifications of 3 centre halves to BT Sport viewers was unlikely to happen.

And i never said it worked that way. Of the various ex-player pundits around there are more that i do not think have a clue than those i do. But to have Scholes' views "disregarded" and then to give your own opinion as if it carries more weight is funny in my opinion. The very definition of internet football punditry.

So are we all in agreement that Pro F knows more about playing 3 at the back than Paul Scholes? :pac:

Irishcrx · 21-08-2014 03:20PM

Pro. F wrote: »

If Scholes started expounding on physiotherapy or goal keeping would you take that as gospel too? Or, if he showed major oversights when expressing his opinions, would you not conclude that he doesn't actually know much about those disciplines?

But he's not doing that is he? This is a man who spend his career as one of the best playmakers in football picking out weakness in the opposition defence and exploiting it with his passing...I think he does know a thing or two about defensive structure and frailties..

Robson99 · 21-08-2014 03:20PM

Whatsisname wrote: »

Don't see the whole attraction around him tbh. Liability in my eyes, score a few goals but will go off sulking or get himself sent off at the wrong times.

Same as. The best bit will be who sulks the most when it comes to taking penalties, him or Gerrard.

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 03:21PM

Pro. F wrote: »

If he has a reasonable grasp of how the 3CBs/2WBs defensive shape works, then how come he didn't make any reference to the lack of the basic elements of those workings at the weekend and instead just criticised the CBs? How does he criticise the CBs and not mention that the shape was set up in a way that was both extremely unusual and never likely to be effective?

Sorry you're right, you know more about football than Paul Scholes. Better?

Alf Veedersane · 21-08-2014 03:23PM

Pro. F wrote: »

There are no centre-backs in the history of football that would not be exposed if they had only two midfielders protecting the width of the pitch in front of the back line. We can sign any CBs you want, the problem won't go away until Van Gaal starts organising the team differently.

Isn't he expecting the wing backs to be fit enough to come in and support the midfielders though so that it becomes a sort of 3-4-3 with 4 players covering the pitch in front of the 3 CBs?

I'm not saying it always works but it can. It depends on the players' ability too play the system properly though

Peist2007 · 21-08-2014 03:23PM

ericzeking wrote: »

Scholes played 99% of his career in a 4-4-2 playing the same way with traditional wingers...Fergie Tactics 101, week in, week out....that he may not be comfortable with or knowledgeable about the intricacies of the 352 we played on Saturday is hardly surprising. Neither is the fact he didn't express himself to the fullest.

The formation he played with at United may indicate he didnt play in a team with 3 centre backs but i am sure he had to, you know, prepare tactically for facing teams with 3 centre backs, no? He would have got to see exactly how the 3 centre back system evolved in Europe after the Ajax win in 1995. No?

What formation did you play in for 99% of your professional career at the very top?

Bannerman7 · 21-08-2014 03:27PM

I would like to think there will be a major signing but its not looking lightly now. Reading all the paper talk I cant see anywhere that the club have actually made a offer for any one of the major names been talked about.
Im starting to believe that the owners are making enough money on the "brand" and don't think the club needs success on the field at this moment.

bullvine · 21-08-2014 03:28PM

Peist2007 wrote: »

The formation he played with at United may indicate he didnt play in a team with 3 centre backs but i am sure he had to, you know, prepare tactically for facing teams with 3 centre backs, no? He would have got to see exactly how the 3 centre back system evolved in Europe after the Ajax win in 1995. No?

What formation did you play in for 99% of your professional career at the very top?

What does that mean exactly? You can ask Jose Mourinho, Rafa Benitez the same question!

Manchester United Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread - Mod Note in OP, 25/08

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